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Orlanth the Abuser


Bohemond

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1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

I don't see how this is an issue of Game Mechanics at all. I'm entirely concerned with the myth as it's written and how players are likely to respond to it. Yes, myths are questable and, as I say toward the end of that post, I'd like to see more myths that are questable from the feminine perspective, but I'm not really looking at how we translate the Wooing of Ernalda into the mechanics of a scenario.

The myth is picturing young Orlanth as an unmitigated asshole without offering any explanation or excuse. And to give credit to the neighbors of the hill barbarians, all too many of his worshippers fail to overcome that juvenile state of mind, justifying their behavior as barbarian, especially when dealing with beings outside of their peer group.

At the same time, if approached properly, these unmitigated assholes are poster boy advertisments for hospitality, no matter what or who you are. Within Godtime, Chaos never approached Orlanth in this way. The Bright Empire and the Lunar Way are departures from Godtime interactions with Orlanth and his folk, but neither bothered to ask for hospitality.

It is true - the Orlanthi see no  more reason to be apologetic for such behavior than abusive frat boys at ivy league colleges or their protective parents do. They have the toxic entitlement that comes from instituted (cultural) exceptionalism.

And though it may look like Whataboutism, basically the same goes for whichever Gloranthan culture you look at. Esrolia is nothing like a feminist utopia, the rule of the Grandmothers is a fascist dystopia somewhat mitigated by the Ezel priesthood, and less mitigated than in the Heortling cult of Orlanth. Loskalmi enlightened Hrestolism is based in xenophobic isolationism and has awakened the Kingdom of War through externalizing way too many bad things. Their inter-relationship is similarly toxic as the Praxian and Orlanthi fueling Chaos or the Devil through antagonistic worship. Rokarism, Dara Happan patriarchalism, Kralori conformism, Lunar chaotic liberation - "at the edge of light there is always shadow."

 

Your modern US society notions of political correctness are as misplaced in Gloranthan context as would be electronic microcomputers. Glorantha feeds on archaic notions, even though it has an optimistic, summer-of-love spirit to mitigate some of the darkest of these notions.

 

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

What I mean by 'framing' is that the story is not presented to the reader as an example of how Orlanth made a mistake and then later owned up to it (which is what I mean by 'screwing up'). There isn't an obvious moral here that 'Orlanth realized that he was abusing Ernalda and changed his ways'. Rather, the most obvious moral that I think one is likely to extract from this story is 'Yell at the woman you're interested in until she submits to you.' Even if we read it from the Ernaldan perspective, the moral seems to be 'Submit to a man's abuse until he marries you and then you'll have some control.' 

Yes. Put out your worst and most irrational behavior, and your wife will accept you with all of that before she softens your edges at every move you make under her supervision.

Note the inversion of typical patriarchalist and misogynist stereotypes in this relationship. The woman is rational and sane, the man is emotional, unstable and volatile.

And if you look at even more ancient motherhood myths, fatherhood is highly optional for Ernalda. She puts up with all of this male nonsense not because of some biological imperative, but because she enjoys the company of the clumsy oaf and his insecure attention. She gives him all the sentiment of achievement and control that Indiana Jones exerts in Raiders of the Lost Ark. If Indy had not done a single thing, the outcome (melted Nazis at the ritual opening of the ark) would have been the same, minus Indy and his girl being tied to a pole with eyes wide shut. There is no moral or point to Raiders any more than there is to this myth.

 

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Your modern US society notions of political correctness are as misplaced in Gloranthan context as would be electronic microcomputers. Glorantha feeds on archaic notions, even though it has an optimistic, summer-of-love spirit to mitigate some of the darkest of these notions.

 

That's great if we're all Bronze Age people just living our lives. But we're not. We're 21st century people playing a game. The kind of stories we choose to tell when we game have impacts on us and how we think about our lives and our world. Telling misogynistic stories encourages misogyny. 

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51 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Telling misogynistic stories encourages misogyny. 

I think that's too simplistic, but why not dial down or skip the displeasing parts in that case? Or make the campaign a series of heroquests to change the status quo. Or set the game in Esrolia or the Lunar Empire where things are rather the reverse. 

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I keep coming across references in the HeroWars books to Orlanth's wooing of Ernalda which depicts it as a positive, mutual thing (like the first myth I cited a bit back - "How Orlanth Met Ernalda'). Perhaps the RW myth we're discussing is not the version that Balanced (and obviously, Peace) Clans have, and it's a feature of Air-heavy, War-oriented groups.

I say substitute a new, alternate myth, possibly one that interrogates this one. The older one is likely to be challenged by members of Earth/Balanced clans.

 

Edit: I'll write it if no one else wants to. I need a functional 'Balanced Clan' story to tell at the marriage scenario I have planned anyway. I'll post the first draft tomorrow.

Edited by jeffjerwin
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5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I keep coming across references in the HeroWars books to Orlanth's wooing of Ernalda which depicts it as a positive, mutual thing (like the first myth I cited a bit back - "How Orlanth Met Ernalda'). Perhaps the RW myth we're discussing is not the version that Balanced (and obviously, Peace) Clans have, and it's a feature of Air-heavy, War-oriented groups.

I say substitute a new, alternate myth, possibly one that interrogates this one. The older one is likely to be challenged by members of Earth/Balanced clans.

@Bohemond was right - keep the dialog parts, replace Orlanth by Kodig and rewrite the myth in between, and you get the dystopian view of the male storm that is prevalent among the Imarjan Grandmothers, themselves being as much of a group of entitled violators of personhood.

And, as I just mentioned over in the slavery thread, the resulting marriage of Orlanth is as much a searing purification of Orlanth as the Baths of Nelat, only this purification comes across as pleasurable while hurting and abrading his asshole self.

You don't need to write a myth about pleasurable wooings, you can take existing ones from the Downland Migration. Durev and Orane, Barntar and Mahome. Each of these with a purpose-made version of Orlanth - one a wooden puppet given personhood, the other purpose-bred.

Edited by Joerg
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The difficulty Glorantha has is that where it stems from is not where it is now most used. Early on, in the late 60s and early 70s, Greg wrote a lot of Glorantha to invent mythology, once he had run out of source material to read. Those myths were as problematic as the source material he was trying to emulate, because he was trying to emulate it. In the 80s Glorantha progressed via gaming, but in late 90s, early 2000s Greg's exploration of mythology was divorced from gaming again, and focused anew on invented mythology, derived from real-word archtectypes in King of Sartar and later the unpublished works. Again the myths were as problematic as the sources he was trying to emulate.

And that may be 'of necessity' when you want to explore myths.

And so the question becomes, when you create a game, how do you deal with all that problematic material? I think that part of the answer is to avoid focusing on that. Yes, it's there, but no gaming material does not have to focus on it. Leave it in the books of myths etc. I don't think, that given Greg's creative goal of exploring mythology it needs to be excised from the canon, just because it is problematic. Some groups may want to explore it, as Ron Edwards group did with the myths around Thed; I think that those groups know who they are. Otherwise it is probably best just to treat it as  'in the shadows' for groups that would struggle with it.

FWIW I think Orlanth is supposed to be a bit of an arsehole (much as Thor often is and Orlanthi mythology is very Germanic in tone). He is frequently immature and badly behaved. He does mature as he goes along, with marriage, with the birth of his son, with his repentance of regicide. Orlanth's actions bring the Darkness. His ring and companions teach him there is a better way. In the end he is forced to confront all those he has wronged. I don't think you are supposed to emulate Orlanth, but learn from his errors.

But yes, there is bad Glorantha play, where someone says "I am going to behave like a dick, because Orlanth was". To be fair of course the same applies to being a Viking, playing in Westeros etc. Don't play with those people.

By comparison, look at the struggles Gaiman had trying to work through Norse myth: https://www.bustle.com/p/how-neil-gaiman-managed-to-retell-the-stories-norse-mythology-without-all-the-misogyny-8429317

 

 

Edited by Ian Cooper
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1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

But yes, there is bad Glorantha play, where someone says "I am going to behave like a dick, because Orlanth was". To be fair of course the same applies to being a Viking, playing in Westeros etc. Don't play with those people.

All out of reacts. This is also sound advice among our non-Vikings: when you meet that guy who uses myth as justification for treating his wife this way, steer clear. If he keeps going in this direction, he isn't going to be worshipping god much longer, and you don't want him to be around if that trajectory goes all the way to chaos.

His wife, on the other hand, is always worth helping out. Odds are good she's got a plan.

That said, the persistence of these stories always creates a role model (heroquest path) for guys susceptible in that dickish direction. In another thread I suspect that Harmast . . . high priest of gigolos, he knows how girls think and what they want . . . reviewed the initiation and the marriage speeches to soften the abuser model considerably by the time it reaches modern Orlanthite society. But he didn't see the need to eliminate it entirely. "There will always be jerks," Ernalda says. "My boys are idiots," replied Allfather.

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15 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I keep coming across references in the HeroWars books to Orlanth's wooing of Ernalda which depicts it as a positive, mutual thing (like the first myth I cited a bit back - "How Orlanth Met Ernalda'). Perhaps the RW myth we're discussing is not the version that Balanced (and obviously, Peace) Clans have, and it's a feature of Air-heavy, War-oriented groups.

There are different ways of telling the myths, concentrating on different things.

Aggressive, domineering Orlanthi will tell it in a different way to Ernaldans. Yelmalians will tell it in a completely different way, and, yes, they do tell the myth of Orlanth, the Bad Husband of Ernalda.

Peace and War Clans will tell the versions that suit them best, but also the myths that suit their time and place best. Myth is flexible, there isn't just one telling.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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One way of reading the Wooing of Erbalda is "Ernalda was held captive in Yelm's Court. She saw a young, simple godling and realised he was her ticket out of there. She seduced him, letting him think he was doing the chasing, let him prove himself to her and then let him take her out of Yelm's Palace.", so it was all Ernalda's Plan.

Edited by soltakss

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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Just gotta say:  this conversation is reading (to me) as having a LOT of threads that are (as I read the topic) not always clearly delineated.  I think people are talking past each other a lot; and/or maybe just replying to different pieces of the topic (as happens on forum-conversations).  But much of it LOOKS like it's all the "same" thread/topic.

I don't think it really is...

There is the IC "how do PC's and NPC's tell (and hear) this myth in all its variations" thread.

There is the anthro/scholar "let us look dispassionately and analytically and non-judgementaly at all these myths" thread.

There is the "are you sure NONE of your players are abuse-survivors/etc and you won't flashback somebody into a panic attack; or just severely-break the 'MGF' rule zero?" real-life player thread.

And maybe more; that's just what comes immediately to mind as I think about it...

FWIW and all that.

 

 

Edited by g33k
"thread" of convo vs "topic" in forum

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13 minutes ago, g33k said:

Just gotta say:  this conversation is reading (to me) as having a LOT of threads that are (as I read the topic) not always clearly delineated.  I think people are talking past each other a lot; and/or maybe just replying to different pieces of the topic (as happens on forum-conversations).  But much of it LOOKS like it's all the "same" thread/topic.

That's what makes it so interesting.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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On 9/13/2018 at 1:41 PM, jeffjerwin said:

Maybe we can work together to provide an alternate version, including the whole courtship and the 'Orlanth learns from his mistakes' missing conclusion.

That's what strikes me here. It's incomplete. It should move from an immature approach to a mature one.

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On 9/15/2018 at 1:58 PM, Bohemond said:

That's great if we're all Bronze Age people just living our lives. But we're not. We're 21st century people playing a game. The kind of stories we choose to tell when we game have impacts on us and how we think about our lives and our world. Telling misogynistic stories encourages misogyny. 

No, telling misogynistic stories teaches us about misogyny.

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2 hours ago, Pentallion said:

No, telling misogynistic stories teaches us about misogyny.

The evidence is actually that antisocial media DOES influence us toward antisocial behavior.  Violent media begets violence, misogynistic media begets misogyny.

I don't know that anyone has specifically studied written media (or oral storytelling, podcasts, etc... or RPG's?) in this regard.  But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would presume a similar effect to media that HAS been studied:  if the reader/viewer/listener/etc engages their imagination with the material (RPGs anyone?) & sympathizes/empathizes with the (antisocial) protagonist (Orlanth much?), they will be influenced that way.

YGMV.  But the available facts suggest you are mistaken.

We humans are MUCH less rational creatures then we think; we bright ones are particularly unwilling to admit how much of our "thought" processes are outside our control.

 

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52 minutes ago, g33k said:

The evidence is actually that antisocial media DOES influence us toward antisocial behavior.  Violent media begets violence, misogynistic media begets misogyny.

I don't know that anyone has specifically studied written media (or oral storytelling, podcasts, etc... or RPG's?) in this regard.  But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would presume a similar effect to media that HAS been studied:  if the reader/viewer/listener/etc engages their imagination with the material (RPGs anyone?) & sympathizes/empathizes with the (antisocial) protagonist (Orlanth much?), they will be influenced that way.

YGMV.  But the available facts suggest you are mistaken.

We humans are MUCH less rational creatures then we think; we bright ones are particularly unwilling to admit how much of our "thought" processes are outside our control.

 

So, you are saying that the Handmaid's Tale is making people hate women?

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1 minute ago, Grievous said:

So, you are saying that the Handmaid's Tale is making people hate women?

<sigh>  Are the protagonists misogynists?  Are we "supposed" to like the abusers?  Our PC's -- with whom we are "supposed" to identify insofar as we role-play them -- are "supposed" to like Orlanth.

FWIW (and admittedly tangential to this point) season 2 is reportedly triggering anxiety attacks in some viewers.

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2 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

We never had this particular problem in our games, pace Mazes and Monsters, but I think that as a layman it's probably best to just avoid running or playing in a therapeutic setting. 

Some therapists do use roleplaying as a therapeutic technique, I understand.  Somehow I doubt it's from a RPG exactly...  😉

*I* sure don't want to "therapize" at MY gaming-table!

But I see it reliably reported that PTSD/abuse/survivorship of various traumas/etc  CAN and DOES come up (IRL, in the players not the characters) at the gaming-table.

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16 minutes ago, g33k said:

But I see it reliably reported that PTSD/abuse/survivorship of various traumas/etc  CAN and DOES come up (IRL, in the players not the characters) at the gaming-table.

If your players have such issues, I'd call it an actually therapeutic setting, even if it's inadvertent. Personally, I think it's wiser to leave such situations to the professionals.

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

The evidence is actually that antisocial media DOES influence us toward antisocial behavior.  Violent media begets violence, misogynistic media begets misogyny.

I don't know that anyone has specifically studied written media (or oral storytelling, podcasts, etc... or RPG's?) in this regard.  But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would presume a similar effect to media that HAS been studied:  if the reader/viewer/listener/etc engages their imagination with the material (RPGs anyone?) & sympathizes/empathizes with the (antisocial) protagonist (Orlanth much?), they will be influenced that way.

YGMV.  But the available facts suggest you are mistaken.

We humans are MUCH less rational creatures then we think; we bright ones are particularly unwilling to admit how much of our "thought" processes are outside our control.

 

Soooo we are all killer hobos?

Youre spouting factoids now.

 

Edited by Pentallion
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1 hour ago, g33k said:

<sigh>  Are the protagonists misogynists?  Are we "supposed" to like the abusers?  Our PC's -- with whom we are "supposed" to identify insofar as we role-play them -- are "supposed" to like Orlanth.

FWIW (and admittedly tangential to this point) season 2 is reportedly triggering anxiety attacks in some viewers.

For what it's worth on my part (to address the sigh), I was legitimately interested in your response here and not just making a snide question. I see your point, but admit to having very different opinions/approaches around this topic.

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27 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Soooo we are all killer hobos?

No.  At least, I hope we aren't!  An "impact" on violence forces nobody's hand.  Not mine, not yours, not Stephen Paddock's.

But your allegation that "telling misogynistic stories teaches us about misogyny" (in response to @Bohemond saying that "telling misogynistic stories encourages misogyny") is so overly-simplified as to be... not wrong, precisely... but surely not right.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Youre spouting factoids now.

What -- in your opinion -- is the difference between "facts" and "factoids"?  Ya got any credible ones for me?

 

NIH (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704015/)  in 2009 --

Quote

Research evidence has accumulated over the past half-century that exposure to violence on television, movies, and most recently in video games increases the risk of violent behavior on the viewer’s part just as growing up in an environment filled with real violence increases the risk of violent behavior

 

APA (http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2014-41977-001)  in 2014 --

Quote

There is broad consensus: Media researchers agree that violent media increase aggression in children, and pediatricians and parents concur.

 

And the highest Impact Factor article I found via Google Scholar (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167213520459)  a meta-study from 2014 --

Quote

... violent video games increase aggression and aggression-related variables and decrease prosocial outcomes, prosocial video games have the opposite effects. These effects were reliable across experimental, correlational, and longitudinal studies, indicating that video game exposure causally affects social outcomes and that there are both short- and long-term effects

 

Look... I enjoy a rousing action-adventure story with tons of violence.  I've gone to "dark places" in PC's that I have played, games that I have GM'ed.  But the facts are clear; and they show that media does impact & influence behavior (in lieu of studies to the contrary, I will presume RPG's count).

You're welcome to your own opinion, of course.  But the data doesn't seem to support (what seems to be) your opinion.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Grievous said:

For what it's worth on my part (to address the sigh), I was legitimately interested in your response here and not just making a snide question.

Fair enough.  Apologies for misunderstanding.

I thought it seemed kinda strawman to equate Handmaid's Tale with Orlanth myths; hence the sigh.

 

 

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