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Countermagic complications


PhilHibbs

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A couple of threads seem to be covering similar ground (Countermagic) so I think we should merge them.

I think this is a fair and balanced summary of the discussions so far from threads here and here:

Shield and Countermagic

  • The wording of Shield may imply that Shield knocks down Countermagic with a Dispel effect, but I believe that it is talking about what happens when someone casts Dispel after Shield has been added to Countermagic.
  • I suspect that Shield can be added to an existing Countermagic, but that Countermagic cannot be added to an existing Shield.
  • Some believe that Countermagic is knocked down if the incoming spell is big enough to knock it down on its own, even if it is not big enough to knock down or breach the total of Countermagic plus Shield x 2. The alternative is that the incoming spell needs to be +/- 1 point as big as the total of the Countermagic plus Shield x 2 in order to knock down the Countermagic.

Countermagic and Detect

  • A literal reading of the rules might lead one to believe that a Detect spell can be used as an EMP with a few boosting MPs to knock down all the Countermagics in an area.
  • Consensus is that this is silly! An easy fix is to just say that while Detect spells are blocked by Countermagic, but they are subtle and do not knock down the Countermagic. This is the flip side of them not needing to overcome the POW of any "target" in the area.

@Jason Durall Interested in your opinion. Might need a Rune Fix clarification.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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A lot depends on how you think the Detect spell works.

  • Does the focus of the spell twist and turn towards the target (and then to the next nearest target)?
  • Does the spell provide a aura visible only to the caster?

I think the first is more likely as the equivalent sorcery spell Geomancy (p395) uses a pointer and a map (or equivalents) to provide information.

So Abelard is casting a detect enemies against three hidden enemies or which the second one has a countermagic. The spell picks out the first one and then Abelard senses the spell is being blocked without picking up the location of the next enemy.  The spell will not pick up the last one.

As for the detect spell taking down all the countermagics in an area, a middle path might be to subtract the MPs used in taken down one countermagic before applying it to the next.

Returning to Abelard, whose second and third enemies have countermagics 3 and 2 respectively.  Abelard casts a detect enemies spell boosted with four MPs.  When he senses the second enemy, his detect spell knocks down his countermagic but it only has 1  MP left.  This is insufficient to take down the third enemy's countermagic and so Abelard's spell is blocked.

 

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

A lot depends on how you think the Detect spell works.

  • Does the focus of the spell twist and turn towards the target (and then to the next nearest target)?
  • Does the spell provide a aura visible only to the caster?

I think the first is more likely as the equivalent sorcery spell Geomancy (p395) uses a pointer and a map (or equivalents) to provide information.

... Abelard, whose second and third enemies have countermagics 3 and 2 respectively.  Abelard casts a detect enemies spell boosted with four MPs.  When he senses the second enemy, his detect spell knocks down his countermagic but it only has 1  MP left.  This is insufficient to take down the third enemy's countermagic and so Abelard's spell is blocked.

I rather like it. Some might say "That's way too complicated", but what are they trying to achieve? Is a Detect Enemies something that has to be resolved as quickly as possible so as to move on to something more interesting, like Fatigue Points? Or is it an opportunity for tense and dramatic narrative of a dangerous situation? If the latter, then why not go into detail like this?

I'm not so sure about the Geomancy example, that is sorcery and we know that the in-world mechanics of sorcery (silent, spooky) are different to spirit and rune magic (flashy, obvious).

So Detect Enemies is still a good way to knock down the nearest Countermagic 1 or 2, without having to target a specific enemy, and also tells you that the enemies that you detected do not have Countermagic on them.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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Detection spells require focus.  That's their duration.  You cannot focus on every possible target simultaneously.  You might see 10 guys coming up the road, but you only focus on one at a time.  If asked what shirt colors each had, you'd have to look at each one separately.  Therefore, the Detect spell would get countermagicked by the first one you focused upon and if the detect has the mps to blow through any of them it will blow through all of them, but if it is just enough cause the CM to counter the detect and drop the CM, it will happen on the first instance and not drop all of them.  Of course, one will get the general impression that there are enemies coming if some of them aren't CM'd, but once a CM knocks down the spell, the impression of danger will vanish.

Detect magic does not detect spells, just enchantments and magical objects.  So a detect magic won't drop or be dropped by CM unless and enchanted object is CM'd.

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4 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Detection spells require focus.  That's their duration. 

I was just reading into that. All detect spells have Instant listed as their duration, and nowhere in RQG does it explain what Focused means (I was about to post new thread), it does not refer to foci as all spells require one.

Detect Magic says: approximate direction and distance from the caster of all enchantments
Detect Enemies: approximate direction and distance from the caster of any being
Detect Substance: detected substance glows visibly to everyone within range

These all suggest that concentration, as you suggest, is not required. With Detect Magic you don't check each item, rather scan an area and all magic items glow.

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13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So Detect Enemies is still a good way to knock down the nearest Countermagic 1 or 2, without having to target a specific enemy, and also tells you that the enemies that you detected do not have Countermagic on them.

Somewhat. The way Detect Enemies is worded the beings detected have to be intending harm on the target of the spell (or the cast if he doesn't pick another target). So if the nearest Countermagic on on someone who isn't currently intending to harm the specified target, it gets skipped. With a group of adventures, it's possible that no one is currently intending to harm the target of the spell because they are all busy intending to harm someone else. 

So if the caster target's (or is) a Chalana Arroy healer most people won't detect as an enemy, and no one's Countermagic would go down.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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8 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Detection spells require focus.  That's their duration.  You cannot focus on every possible target simultaneously.  You might see 10 guys coming up the road, but you only focus on one at a time.  If asked what shirt colors each had, you'd have to look at each one separately.  Therefore, the Detect spell would get countermagicked by the first one you focused upon...

Detection targets don’t always have to be visible though. Many of the detect spells are not blocked by less than 1m thickness of stone, metal or earth.

Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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16 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Detection spells require focus.  That's their duration.  You cannot focus on every possible target simultaneously.

The target is the spell is the character it's cast upon (or the caster), not the ones who want to hurt him. So there is only one target. 

That's also why Detect Enemies works even when you are unaware of the presence of person intending to harm you, like when you suspect an ambush.

 

16 hours ago, Pentallion said:

  You might see 10 guys coming up the road, but you only focus on one at a time.  If asked what shirt colors each had, you'd have to look at each one separately. 

No, because none of those 10 guys are "targeted" by the spell. Detect Enemies is very clear about who the target of the spell is. It's who you cast if for, or the caster himself- not the "enemies". You don't actually check to see if that mean looking guy lurking in the alleyway is an "enemy", you cast the spell on yourself (the target) and the spell Detects anyone in range who intends to harm you.

16 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Therefore, the Detect spell would get countermagicked by the first one you focused upon

If your friend has Countermagic up. 

Now, according to RQ3 (the only version that tells us the sequencing of the spell) the Detect spell will "ping" enemies closest to farthest away, and interact with Countermagic spells sequentially. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The way Detect Enemies is worded the beings detected have to be intending harm on the target of the spell (or the cast if he doesn't pick another target). So if the nearest Countermagic on on someone who isn't currently intending to harm the specified target, it gets skipped.

Which makes the effect of Countermagic as blocking the Detect Enemies nugatory: by blocking the spell, it has announced that the target is an enemy. So, even if a big Detect Enemies doesn't knock down Countermagics, it would still make the 'counter detection' aspect of Countermagic almost entirely pointless, and doubly so if a strong 'first' Countermagic will knock down a weaker Detect Enemies. I do not believe this can be the actual intent.

 

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

...if the nearest Countermagic on on someone who isn't currently intending to harm the specified target, it gets skipped. With a group of adventures, it's possible that no one is currently intending to harm the target of the spell because they are all busy intending to harm someone else. 

I strongly disagree with that assessment. Because it's entirely possible to be intent on harming "everyone in the adventurers' party". I'd submit that it's more likely that this is the case in most instances of ambush or combat than each enemy only and solely focusing their intent on the targets they're currently engaging. "When I've dropped this sucker, I'm going to stab the vitals of their friends too!" How deep into the motivation of the character does the spell look? Is each member a Lunar Kill Squad not wishing harm on all the Sartarite rebels they've managed to get the drop on, even if they're currently only planning on Madnessing one character?

 

 

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39 minutes ago, womble said:

Which makes the effect of Countermagic as blocking the Detect Enemies nugatory: by blocking the spell, it has announced that the target is an enemy. So, even if a big Detect Enemies doesn't knock down Countermagics, it would still make the 'counter detection' aspect of Countermagic almost entirely pointless, and doubly so if a strong 'first' Countermagic will knock down a weaker Detect Enemies. I do not believe this can be the actual intent.

When there was a Detection Blank, it specifically said that this was the advantage over Countermagic, which blocked the detect but let the caster know that it had been blocked.

39 minutes ago, womble said:

I strongly disagree with that assessment. Because it's entirely possible to be intent on harming "everyone in the adventurers' party".

I agree, as a GM I would not rules-lawyer over the specifics of someone's right-now intent.

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45 minutes ago, womble said:

Which makes the effect of Countermagic as blocking the Detect Enemies nugatory: by blocking the spell, it has announced that the target is an enemy.

No, it doesn't. You see the way Detect Enemies works, you target someone  and those beings who intend to harm them glow. The "enemies" aren't targets but simply caught in the area of effect. 

45 minutes ago, womble said:

So, even if a big Detect Enemies doesn't knock down Countermagics, it would still make the 'counter detection' aspect of Countermagic almost entirely pointless, and doubly so if a strong 'first' Countermagic will knock down a weaker Detect Enemies. I do not believe this can be the actual intent.

It was the actual intent, and is noted as such under Detection Blank. Basically, the idea is that if your Detect Enemies spell gets, blocked, you know it. What you don;t know is how many more undetected enemies you have. That was the advantage of Detection Blank, as PhilHibbs pointed out. 

45 minutes ago, womble said:

I strongly disagree with that assessment.

Well you're wrong, simple as that. Just reread my post: 

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 if the nearest Countermagic on on someone who isn't currently intending to harm the specified target, it gets skipped. With a group of adventures, it's possible that no one is currently intending to harm the target of the spell because they are all busy intending to harm someone else. 

So if the caster target's (or is) a Chalana Arroy healer most people won't detect as an enemy, and no one's Countermagic would go down.

So the nearest someone isn't currently intendeding to harm the specficed target, he gets skipped.  Under those specific circumstances, there is no "enemy" to Detect. And yes it is possible.

 

But I think your disagreement is as to if someone could intend to harm multiple characters at the same time, which it is, but I didn't claim that it wasn't possible. 

 

45 minutes ago, womble said:

Because it's entirely possible to be intent on harming "everyone in the adventurers' party". I'd submit that it's more likely that this is the case in most instances of ambush or combat than each enemy only and solely focusing their intent on the targets they're currently engaging.

For ambush certainly. In melee, possibly.. You probabl ynot going to be spending much time thinking about what you are going to do later on,  to some guy 30 feet away, while the guy in front of you is trying to lop off your head. It's like "intending" on doing the laundry when you get home. It might be your intention, but it's probably not on your mind at that moment. Now under the right circumstances someone could be thinking of harming more than one person at a time, but probably not so much while engaged in melee. 

 

 

45 minutes ago, womble said:

"When I've dropped this sucker, I'm going to stab the vitals of their friends too!"

Is very unlikely. You don't have the time to divert your attention on that when you're trying to prevent that sucker from dropping you. It's not like daydreaming at the office. Your mind mind wander for a moment or two, but if you don't keep focused on the guy your fighting you probably won't trip a Detect Life spell for much longer. 

 

Think of any sort of game or competition you been involved in. Now, while you might intend to kick everybody's butt at, say, Monopoly, you don't keep thinking about it constantly. You too busy with what's happening at the time. 

 

45 minutes ago, womble said:

How deep into the motivation of the character does the spell look? Is each member a Lunar Kill Squad not wishing harm on all the Sartarite rebels they've managed to get the drop on, even if they're currently only planning on Madnessing one character?

It's not what they wish, it's what they intend to do. As far as Detect Enemies goes, they're not. It's not like they Lunars are sitting there thinking, "Two hours from now I'm gonna kill George, then an hour later, kill Sam, then, after lunch, I'll kill Thomas, oh, and Joe too. etc. etc." And they certainly can't be thinking that while focusing on casting.  

Likewise, if a Lunar Kill Sqaud Leader has Detect Enemies up, and one of the other Lunar Soldier wishes that his squad leader was fed to the Crimson Bat, he doesn't Detect as an Enemy because the solider doesn't actually intend to harm him. 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Perhaps Detect Enemies should just be renamed “Area Counter-Counter Magic” because that may be what it is most useful for.

As a spell to help spot people who are a danger to you, it has some use but appears to be rather pathetic:

 

Will it detect the big band of broo on the other side of the door? Apparently not because they don’t know you are there, so currently do not intend to harm you.

 

Will it detect your sworn enemy (who has vowed to kill you on sight) on the other side of the door? Apparently not because that person doesn’t know you are there, so currently does not intend to harm you.

 

Standing outside the entrance to a ruined temple and about to enter but worried that there might be some bandit guards in there set up to ambush anyone who enters. Try Detect Life, because Detect Enemies won’t work. If they don’t know you are out there, they are not yet your enemy.

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It's primary use is what it always has been, a way to spot ambushes and hiding foes.  

 

Really, if intentions weren't part of the spell description (and they are) then you'd end up with situations where it always detected someone even if they have no particular interest in harming you. Should all Lunars automatically be considered enemies of Orlanthi, even the ones who have have nothing against them? 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Okay, I'll try again.

Detect Enemies:

Target is the person whose enemies are being detected. 

Positive candidate: entity inside the area of effect who does, in fact, intend harm to the Target.

Potential candidate: everyone inside the area of effect.

We're talking about the first case 'general detection'. " ...gives the approximate direction and distance from the caster of any being intending to harm them..."

Take the general query: "Is this group of folk I can see hostile to me specifically." The Target is the caster. If the 'first' Potential candidate is a Positive candidate with a Countermagic on them sufficient to block the spell, according to the 'only hostiles are even considered' interpretation, the spell is blocked, and because the caster knows only positive candidates' CM is even addressed, they know the 'first' potential candidate must be an enemy, and can infer therefore that the group they are facing bears them enmity. Making the fact that CM blocks Detect Enemies completely pointless.

The same goes for the "are there enemies behind that door": maybe it's pointless for the Humakti to cast it because the ZZ Death Lord behind the door doesn't know the Humakti Target is even there; maybe it's pointless because the Death Lord has decided the Ernalda Initiate looks tastier. But I believe the intent is to detect Enemies. A ZZ berserker is the natural enemy of a Humakti, so the spell should trigger. And yay! The troll's Season-long Shield 5 stops it working. And boooo! the Humakti knows there's an enemy behind the door, rather than just someone with a Countermagic about which you know nothing of their intentions.

Countermagic's cancelling of Detect Enemies should, IMO, result in ambiguity, not simply confirmation that the 'potential candidate' is a positively identified enemy, exactly as if they hadn't had Countermagic up. 

Detection Blank is for entirely different purposes and situations.

And anyone casting Detect Enemy as a general query while there's a fight going on (without a very specific reason) is wasting magic points: the enemy are trying to do you harm already. Detect Enemies is (usually) for before the fight actually starts, to either detect the presence of unobserved attackers-to-be, or determine the intention of entities you can see who haven't actually tried to harm you yet, as far as you can tell.

As it stands, the spell description is frankly shonky and needs significant clarification.

If we hadn't come up with the idea of Detect Enemies blowing down CM, this wouldn't be an issue. You could cast it on a room full of simmering belligerence, and you'd get results of:

Don't know (if there's a CM up on the subject of the spell that can bounce the Detect)

Enemy (if the Detect is strong enough to beat a putative Countermagic and the subject is inclined to cause harm to the Target)

Not inclined to kill the target today (if the detect beats any existing CM weight on a subject who is not inclined to cause harm to the Target) or has enough Detection Blank to stymie the Detect's MP boost.

Because it just goes out there and checks on peoples' intent without being a way of disrupting magical defenses in a wide area, which I think we're all agreed is not the intent. Just say "No," to EMP-Detects.

Detect Enemies should be useful (for example) to find out whether there are any blood enemies in a drinking establishment (in a neutral location, maybe) before entering, IMO. They don't know you're even in the settlement (if they'e there) but have a general, ongoing wish to cause you and your Clan harm. If any of the patrons of that establishment have enough magical defense to bounce the Detect, they should register as "unknown" (and I think should know their defenses got approached - they should also be able to infer something about the nature of the spell: it's either a Sorcery or a largely innocuous Spirit or Rune spell, because they didn't see the flashy cast). If they've got Detection Blank up enough to defeat the Detect, they don't register, whether they're ill-wishers or not.

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11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The target is the spell is the character it's cast upon (or the caster), not the ones who want to hurt him. So there is only one target. 

That's also why Detect Enemies works even when you are unaware of the presence of person intending to harm you, like when you suspect an ambush.

 

No, because none of those 10 guys are "targeted" by the spell. Detect Enemies is very clear about who the target of the spell is. It's who you cast if for, or the caster himself- not the "enemies". You don't actually check to see if that mean looking guy lurking in the alleyway is an "enemy", you cast the spell on yourself (the target) and the spell Detects anyone in range who intends to harm you.

If your friend has Countermagic up. 

Now, according to RQ3 (the only version that tells us the sequencing of the spell) the Detect spell will "ping" enemies closest to farthest away, and interact with Countermagic spells sequentially. 

Ahh, you are right.  I wasnt considering the correct target of the spell is not the enemy but the detector.  

I think the easiest way to clear up the CM debate is to rule that the CM negates the detect enemy.  But the caster doesnt know its knocked down.  All he knows is he doesnt detect any enemies.

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4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I think the easiest way to clear up the CM debate is to rule that the CM negates the detect enemy.  But the caster doesnt know its knocked down.  All he knows is he doesnt detect any enemies.

Which would mean Detection Blank won't be making an appearance in this version of the game. And would make (what I suspect will be quite common) Extended Shield a near-perfect stealth enhancer. Another unintended consequence, IMO.

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1 hour ago, womble said:

Which would mean Detection Blank won't be making an appearance in this version of the game. And would make (what I suspect will be quite common) Extended Shield a near-perfect stealth enhancer. Another unintended consequence, IMO.

Not quite, because any active spell will give off a magical glow or radiance that can be perceived even with normal senses, and Gloranthans will know what to look for. Someone under the effect of the Berserk rune spell will give off such a glow, too, possibly accompanied by a spectral afterimage of the appropriate raging beast  - bull (Storm Bull), lion (Basmol), wolf (Humakt? possibly only for unusual subcults), as per the illustration on p.320 - and you don't need Detect Magic to perceive that. Even Countermagic does give off that glow.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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12 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Ahh, you are right.  I wasnt considering the correct target of the spell is not the enemy but the detector.  

Yup, and it's a big pain in the gluteus maximimus. 

12 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I think the easiest way to clear up the CM debate

Ironically this isn't a debate! For one, we're not really arguing about how a rule should work, but are are scrambling to try and figure out how a rule has been working for the last 4 decades. I think we're all on the same side here. No one really likes the idea that a sufficiently boosted Detect Enemies spell could potentially blow down a dozen Countermagic spells and work like a a faster, cheaper, multispelled, Dispel. 

I suspect that in actual play this probably won't be as much of a problem as it appears, due to the fact that this will only work on Countermagic cast on those considered Enemies by the Detect spell, and that Countermagic is incompatible with other spells like Protection. 

12 hours ago, Pentallion said:

 

 

is to rule that the CM negates the detect enemy.  But the caster doesnt know its knocked down.  All he knows is he doesnt detect any enemies.

That would mean rolling Detection Blank into Countermagic. But then Xenohealing isn't in RQG, is it?

I was happier about this back when I was working under the mistaken impression that Countermagic didn't apply because the Enemies weren't the targets of the spell. 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Well, then the conundrum still can be solved by the reality that the detect spell only targets the detector, not the enemies.  What we're faced with is that in any situation where a group of obvious hostiles are approaching, spells up, the standard operating procedure is to hit them with a detect enemies, not because you need to know, but because it will drop all their CM's.  That makes CM useless.

And here is where we get out of the problem:  The spell isn't countered by CM because it doesn't target the people CM is defending against.  It targets the detector so only HIS CM can block it.

People coming at you with CM up are detected as enemies and the CM doesn't go down.  Since Detect Enemies is not targeting the enemies, it is not affected by CM not is CM affected by it.  Rare case.  Problem solved.

This also leaves Detection Blank workable because then you don't detect enemies at all.

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1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

People coming at you with CM up are detected as enemies...

Making, again, the point that CM "...protects the target it is cast upon against ...Detection..." useless. If Det Enemies only registers as being blocked by CM protecting Enemies, then CM doesn't protect against Detection.

Also, for this edition, I don't think the entry for any of the Detect spells suggests you can cast them on anyone other than yourself. They all say "...gives the approximate direction and distance from the caster..." which means whoever you cast it on, the caster is the focus. And for Detect Enmies, in addition, the caster is the person who is considered when assessment of who the potential detectee is intending to harm "... from the caster of any being intending to harm them..."

Thirdly, the wording of Detect Enemies is thoroughly slack. "...or it detects and locates a specific individual on whom the caster concentrates." Doesn't require the individual in question to be intending to harm them, which is probably good, since they may not even be aware of the existence of the specific person who's casting the spell.

Whole thing needs a rework, including the removal of the "Focused" descriptor (since the duration is "Instant"), unless "Focused" getting an actual definition helps in sorting out the mess.

Which gives me an idea.

Make the spell (Quotation for separation purposes only - this is a suggestion not some sort of attempt to pull Authority out of my wazoo):
 

Quote

 

Detect Enemies

Ranged, Temporal, Active.

This spell gives the approximate direction and distance from the caster of any being intending to harm them, starting with the nearest within the range [50m default for Ranged - Ed] of the spell, or it detects and locates a specific individual enemy on whom the caster concentrates. Each DEX SR, the caster can focus on the next-nearest being (or newly-nearest if movement has brought an ill-wisher closer than those previously detected) intending to harm them, or on a different specific individual.

The caster of the spell does not have to overcome the POW of potential targets to find them, but Countermagic will protect against the Detect if it is strong enough to repel it. A Detect stopped by a Countermagic will not return the direction or distance of the subject of the effect of the spell, though it will allow the caster to know that there is one more Enemy within range than the ones they have so far pinpointed. If the Countermagic is 2 points stronger than the Detect, the Detect will end. Since the spell is not targeted on the being protected by the Countermagic, it will not knock down the Countermagic, however strong it is.

An enemy need not be actively planning to inflict immediate harm to register "intent to harm" (though if they are, they'll count). Any being with a Hate [group] Passion which includes the caster will also register as an Enemy. To be able to focus the spell to locate a specific individual, the caster must have a Hate [group] Passion which includes the intended subject, or the individual must have already qualified as an Enemy to the caster, either by stating or demonstrating their intent to harm, or by the intent being detected magically.

The sensing effect is stopped by 1 or more meters of a dense substance such as stone, metal, or earth.

 

Thoughts?

Anyone with (a strong enough) Detection Blank just gets skipped over. Detect Enemies stops being a mass "Dispel Countermagic". Having Countermagic reduces the information the caster gets out of the spell. The undefined "Focused" limitation is replaced by the defined "Active", but its flavour is retained. The flow of information to the caster is made more manageable.

The above suggestion allows you to confirm an ambush by your enemies, if you see something suspicious and follow it up with a Detect Enemies, even if the ambushers have 'cleverly' put someone with a big Shield spell at the entry to the ambush. You just won't get any more information like you would if the ambushers didn't have any Countermagic-effect at all.

It lets you check out a dubious social situation before you enter it.

 

 

 

 

Edited by womble
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2 hours ago, womble said:

Thoughts?

Looks like a better definition of "enemies", but doesn't answer my questions about conditionally hostile encounters that require a trigger.

Nor does it define "harm". Like I said, the party's own Trickster ought to register every single time the spell is cast.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Looks like a better definition of "enemies", but doesn't answer my questions about conditionally hostile encounters that require a trigger.

Were those questions in the other thread? I'm assuming you mean encounters like the 'urbane highwayman' who has no intention of harming you if you calmly surrender your valuables, but will have his minions shoot you in the gizzard if you're lippy... I'd take those as 'not registering'; a Detect Enemies would produce no result, confirming the robber's "honesty" about letting you go on your way unharmed if you comply (or warn you if he intends to cut you even if you do give up the goods). A suspicious Guard isn't your enemy until you skin your bronze at him...

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Nor does it define "harm". Like I said, the party's own Trickster ought to register every single time the spell is cast.

No; an omission. I think it has to include only physical harm (however inflicted). A chiselling conman or beer-watering alewife isn't an Enemy; they don't want your blood, just your Lunars. And yeah, if the Trickster is particularly vindictive, there might be times when they're seriously considering slipping a shank between the Wind Lord's ribs while they sleep.

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My thoughts are my solution is correct.  

Example: I cast bladesharp on my sword.  CM obviously doesnt stop it.  I cast detect enemies on myself.  Again CM doesnt stop it.  I hit you, my bladesharp passing through your "CM zone" is not dispelled.  I sense youre an enemy.  My senses passing through your "CM zone" is not dispelled.

CM is useless vs detect spells.  

Anywhere in CM it says different is an error and should be corrected.

All problems solved.

EDIT:  Just read the offending text.  You guys are misunderstanding it.  CM will stop anyone casting Detection spells ON YOU.  ie, if you have CM up and someone wants you to be able to detect something and cast a detection spell on you so you can, for example, detect enemies, then the CM will block it.

That is not the same thing as CM blocking your ability to detect enemies if you have the detection spell already cast on you.

Also, Detection spells are all Ranged, Focused, Instant.  Focused should have been explained fully.  You HAVE to have the Focus to cast a Focused spell, unlike other spells that can be cast by spending two melee rounds if you don't have the focus.  The reason being that the detection spell requires the Focus to point for you, like a divining rod.  That's why only detection spells are described as Focused.  Without the focus, the spell simply won't work.

Edited by Pentallion
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