The Interior Art Needs to Change

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Narl said:

Regarding kids viewing the book. As a parent, I am always surprised at other parents who have no problem with their kids seeing copious amounts of violence on TV, in movies, and in video games -- yet anything sexual is completely off limits -- no bare breasts allowed!

It is completely backwards -- do I want my kids to ever have violence be part of their lives? Of course not. I would never want them to have to commit and be subject to a violent act. Do I want sex to be a part of their lives eventually? Of course I do, as I'd like to be a grandparent someday! It must be awfully confusing for some kids....

One might in turn ask, with which is it better to be prepared to deal with if they do run into it?

Personally, if my kid suddenly is confronted with sex, I trust they can figure it out.  If they don't?  (shrug) 

If they are (god forbid) confronted with violence, paralysis might KILL them.

It is completely backwards TO YOU.  That doesn't mean your ethos is everyone's.

That would be as silly as expecting everyone to forego beautiful artwork because you can't read it at work.

Edited September 17, 2018 by styopa

[Dragonsnail]

I really like how the guys at Posthuman Studios have done their PDF-books with the layer function. For example when reading the Eclipse Phase rulebook, I can select to remove layers I don't want. Reading on a phone or tablet, I could turn off almost all art assets myself - just reading text and tables.

The downside with this is that the PDF requires more work, and I think the editor at Posthuman Studios is a pro editor.

Example image with "Art" and "Background" layer turned off.

 

Notice Eclipse Phase is posted under Creative Commons so they should be ok with me posting an image of the rulebook which I of course have bought in both printed and PDF form.

http://eclipsephase.com/

Edited September 17, 2018 by Dragonsnail

[Martin]

4 minutes ago, styopa said:

I expected someone would show up with this sort of frankly patronizing advice.  

 

i had no intention of being patronising just seems to be the obvious solution to prevent others being shocked when he reads it

[jeffjerwin]

16 minutes ago, styopa said:

Personally, if my kid suddenly is confronted with sex, I trust they can figure it out.  If they don't?  (shrug) 

If they are (god forbid) confronted with violence, paralysis might KILL them.

Perhaps we ought to say, both things need to be taken seriously, and setting unrealistic standards for either is probably not a good idea. There are plenty of teenagers who are profoundly misinformed about bodies and sex. I do not intend to for my kid to learn about these things with no guidance whatsoever and particularly not from pornography. I also want my kid to know how to defend herself.

We are confronted with our bodies and sexuality more frequently than we are confronted with dangerous violence (I hope). Being afraid of sexuality or naked bodies leads to problems, including violence.

In Glorantha, this is also true. The game makes the world seem like it's pretty much a place of constant violent death, but that's in part because of who the characters are, not how the world is. In any case, nudity is not pornography, no more than depictions of violence are necessarily incitements to violence or lies about its nature. Glorantha has always had a more realistic view of injury and death (even with all its mythology) than other games.

[styopa]

42 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

In Glorantha, this is also true. The game makes the world seem like it's pretty much a place of constant violent death, but that's in part because of who the characters are, not how the world is. In any case, nudity is not pornography, no more than depictions of violence are necessarily incitements to violence or lies about its nature. Glorantha has always had a more realistic view of injury and death (even with all its mythology) than other games.

Oddly, we were just talking about this -  when you consider:

1) the rules about improving birth stats, widespread healing, couvade, and the bias in the crop results table that can be quite easily gamed for regularly outstanding harvests, populations SHOULD be literally swarming

2) the fact that nevertheless all the towns and cities are all more or less analogous to IRL bronze-age adult populations

....ergo, Glorantha must be more or less hip-deep in dead children?.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

i had no intention of being patronising just seems to be the obvious solution to prevent others being shocked when he reads it

I'd actually edited out MY comment as being itself ironically patronizing...

In re yours, I'd guess he expected the people he worked with to be more or less adult about what he was reading...lesson learned, I expect.

Edited September 17, 2018 by styopa

[PhilHibbs]

49 minutes ago, styopa said:

Oddly, we were just talking about this -  when you consider:

1) the rules about improving birth stats, widespread healing, couvade, and the bias in the crop results table that can be quite easily gamed for regularly outstanding harvests, populations SHOULD be literally swarming

One of the early drafts was even more raunchy, with hierogamic ritual magic!

[jeffjerwin]

56 minutes ago, styopa said:

Oddly, we were just talking about this -  when you consider:

1) the rules about improving birth stats, widespread healing, couvade, and the bias in the crop results table that can be quite easily gamed for regularly outstanding harvests, populations SHOULD be literally swarming

2) the fact that nevertheless all the towns and cities are all more or less analogous to IRL bronze-age adult populations

....ergo, Glorantha must be more or less hip-deep in dead children?.

Nah, just proper magic contraception. And perhaps more frequent crop disasters too? If you screw up the magic, the crop's going to be terrible. I think the ordinary result = effective magic, not sans magic.

[Grievous]

7 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Ok, so some background.

I posted this after getting to work today and finding an email stating that I had to answer a claim of reading pornography at work.  I.e. I had been reported because of the content of the RQG PDF.  

After going through mediation and checking each page it was decided not to take it further as the material was considered borderline.  The agreement was that an official complaint would not be made if I agreed not to read it at work again.

Ironically the page the person complained about wasn't one of the "worst offenders"

For the record, it was decided that the unsuitable pages were:

12, 22, 51, 83, 99, 268, 272, 289, 302, 364, 424.

I later heard the person has a long history of making similar complaints.

I have a hard time believing this. I mean, what kind of Orwellian working place is this? And that any place would bother going through and listing the unsuitable pages is straight outta some totalitarian cartoon.

[d(sqrt(-1))]

22 minutes ago, Grievous said:

I have a hard time believing this. I mean, what kind of Orwellian working place is this? And that any place would bother going through and listing the unsuitable pages is straight outta some totalitarian cartoon.

Sure, I can see they might not want you reading at work (not even at lunchtime?) but if they try telling you what you can and can't read when it's obviously not porn - hmmmmm. Also, presumably the people going through it were also being paid for their time doing that over 449 pages and being irrevocably corrupted in the process?

As I say, I'd be tempted to take in a big art book of classical nudes to read, or maybe the office could do with a nice renaissance piece of art like this to appreciate http://www.mheu.org/en/timeline/gabrielle-estrees.htm

Edited September 17, 2018 by d(sqrt(-1))

[Psullie]

While I personally love the new art and I'm glad that my own culture and personal experience places the line between obscenity and nudity in line with artistic expression, I do understand that we are lining in a multicultural world. Many people today would have justifiable religious and/or cultural object to the art (and in some cases the actual concepts) contained in RQG. 

Meschashef, that just have been a rough experience, but your HR dept sounds like reasonable people who are obliged to answer all complaints. Too bad the 'offender' didn't have the courage or understanding to address you directly. 

 

[Mechashef]

Yes I am from Canberra, Australia.

And in answer to one question, I work for an organisation that is by law bound to investigate matters of inappropriate behaviour.  

A complaint was made and thus it had to be investigated.

The fact I was using my own laptop and was not  in a conspicuous location is irrelevant.

The nature or the motivation of the accuser is a factor to be considered (he has a track record of putting in complaints about things that are offensive to his culture) but does not mean the complaint can be ignored.

 

I have no issues myself with the art.  But when releasing a product into a crowded market, and when getting new fans would seem to be essential, giving people a reason to be negative about the product does not seem to be sensible.

Though my view is probably influenced by memories of D&D and RQ both being banned from my highschool because of a widely circulated (and largely inaccurate) pamphlet published by the Australian Federation for Decency (I still have a copy of that pamphlet somewhere).  Other games benefited from that (ironically Call of Cthulhu wasn’t banned).

 

Standing up for what you think is morally right sounds like a good argument, though perhaps it should be noted that this is exactly what the person who complained was doing.

 

At the end of the day it is the money that comes in from the product that is important. Be careful not to harm that.

 

[jps]

9 hours ago, Hteph said:

Oh, 'muricas and their fear for the dreaded nipple!

 

ROTFL!

Exactly what I was thinking

[Prinz Slasar]

OT: Somehow, this thread reminds me of that on the topic "Orlanth the Abuser".
Interesting coincidence of a certain type of criticism of RQG/Glorantha.
 

[Cawdorthane]

As another Australian, I found Mechashef's account of his experience simply appalling. I hope it is atypical even in the Antipodes, but I fear it reflects an increasingly commonplace, if absurd, proclivity for some people to seek out matters to be outraged by.  How this complainant ever discovered what Mechashef was looking at on his lap-top, without unnecessarily trawling through all of his other co-workers' online activities,  mystifies me!  One might have hoped that the ethos of the East German Stasi was confined to the dust bin of history, but you would sadly be wrong... Fair enough, if something genuinely nasty was visible on a screen at work, but spying on your co-workers' rpg reading material, really...?

More seriously, I for one love using evocative images in my gaming sessions. In this regard, the RQG imagery is quite magic, literally.  Sure I can spend 5 minutes describing  a person or a scene (and I often do), but showing the players a good picture usually draws every one in immediately and helps me cut to the chase. So please stay strong Chaosium, keep up the brilliant art work, and damn the Wowsers!

cheers

Mark

Edited September 18, 2018 by Cawdorthane

[MOB]

12 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Ok, so some background.

I posted this after getting to work today and finding an email stating that I had to answer a claim of reading pornography at work.  I.e. I had been reported because of the content of the RQG PDF.  

You probably would have got more sympathy and understanding here about your unfortunate experience with a less inflammatory thread heading then.

12 hours ago, Mechashef said:

After going through mediation and checking each page it was decided not to take it further as the material was considered borderline.  The agreement was that an official complaint would not be made if I agreed not to read it at work again.

Ironically the page the person complained about wasn't one of the "worst offenders"

For the record, it was decided that the unsuitable pages were:

12, 22, 51, 83, 99, 268, 272, 289, 302, 364, 424.

I later heard the person has a long history of making similar complaints.

I'm sorry that you've had to go through this. I don't know where you work in Canberra, but given that far greater levels of nudity (and sex etc) are shown nightly on Australian free-air-tv, the contention that any of the art in RQG would be considered "borderline" pornography is way out of step with mainstream community standards in this country.

[SDLeary]

6 hours ago, Grievous said:

I have a hard time believing this. I mean, what kind of Orwellian working place is this? And that any place would bother going through and listing the unsuitable pages is straight outta some totalitarian cartoon.

Sadly, this has become somewhat common in the US too, especially if you work for a large corporation. Its considered creating a "hostile work environment". Covers more than this too... one employee could bring similar charges for another employee wearing an Iron Maiden t-shirt, because they are "offended".

SDLeary

Edited September 18, 2018 by SDLeary
clarity

[Julian Lord]

8 hours ago, styopa said:

....ergo, Glorantha must be more or less hip-deep in dead children?.

I think there was an old RQ2-era article in one of the old magazines that clearly stated that overall mortality in Glorantha is significantly higher that it was IRL in Antiquity and the early Mediaeval period, and that the higher birth rate among Gloranthans is necessary to ensure population stability.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Julian Lord

[Sid Vicarious]

Canberra is an odd place, a made-to-order capital in the middle of nowhere. Its basically a government town, and as such largely populated by public servants ; a borgeois bubble of rule-followers in splendid isolation.  My son, 23 and a recent MA graduate, moved there for work this year from Melbourne, and describes it as "the dullest and most repressed place on Earth". The situation the OP has shared is VERY Canberra, although it could feasibly happen anywhere in Australia. 

[Pentallion]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:09 AM, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

 

I'd be tempted to take into work a book on classical art and read that instead...

 

Although, given what happened to you at work I can't quite square that with the OP. You were told off for reading something deemed unsuitable for YOU to read at work, and then posted here that the art needs to change? It sounds like you are doing the person attempting to censor you's work for them...

 

Exactly.

Another thread that smacks of concern trolling.

 

 

[Videopete]

As some one who has consumed vast quantities of cheesecake and knows his smut and titilation. I can say that aside from onesies and twosies of more realistic art. A vast majority of the art that has nudity is so stylised and abstract that its a stretch to call it NSFW. I mean some of this kind of stuff was in my elementary school text book.

[Pentallion]

On 9/17/2018 at 1:35 PM, Grievous said:

I have a hard time believing this. I mean, what kind of Orwellian working place is this? And that any place would bother going through and listing the unsuitable pages is straight outta some totalitarian cartoon.

Yeah, makes me not believe a word from this poster.  As I said before, this guy is trolling all of you. 

[10baseT]

On 9/16/2018 at 5:04 PM, Tobbe-A said:

I want the full breadth of Glorantha for my games, gore, nipples, warts and all.

A-effing-men brother!!! And i'll take a few more pigs on the altar too, dammit! (jeez louise people, i hope you don't try and play any Delta Green)

Edited September 20, 2018 by 10baseT

[styopa]

On 9/17/2018 at 3:35 PM, Grievous said:

I have a hard time believing this. I mean, what kind of Orwellian working place is this? And that any place would bother going through and listing the unsuitable pages is straight outta some totalitarian cartoon.

"I can't imagine this" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I can certainly see that level of reactionary HR in any sort of government workplace here in the US.

[jeffjerwin]

25 minutes ago, styopa said:

"I can't imagine this" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I can certainly see that level of reactionary HR in any sort of government workplace here in the US.

Yes, and I've been confronted by it. On the other hand, I also have left jobs because of a pervasive culture of harassment and impunity. So it's easy to see how things get out of whack.