Peaceful cut and butchering

[Brootse]

Does every city dwelling butcher perform the rites of the Peaceful cut, or do they just butcher the animal with a craft skill? And if so, and they later wanted to start using the Peaceful cut, how much would they get to the skill from their butcher skill?

[Manu]

I think the 2 skills are independent. Peacefull cul is a magical ceremony (not in the technical way, but in the spiritual way).

Butcher is just cutting meat

[jps]

As for the second part of your question "... how much would they get to the skill from their butcher skill?" I would say using a skill to reinforce another skill should be the way to go: using Peaceful cut to add a bonus to Craft (Butchery) or the other way round would be appropriate. 

 

[BWP]

23 hours ago, Brootse said:

Does every city dwelling butcher perform the rites of the Peaceful cut, or do they just butcher the animal with a craft skill? And if so, and they later wanted to start using the Peaceful cut, how much would they get to the skill from their butcher skill?

Why would a "city dwelling butcher" even know about Peaceful Cut, let alone make any use of it?  That's something that those savages out in the wild places do.

Most city dwelling butchers are primarily concerned about maximising the meat (and other by-products) yield from any given carcass.  Which is what the Butchery skill is all about.

 

[David Scott]

On 9/19/2018 at 12:19 AM, Brootse said:

Does every city dwelling butcher perform the rites of the Peaceful cut, or do they just butcher the animal with a craft skill? And if so, and they later wanted to start using the Peaceful cut, how much would they get to the skill from their butcher skill?

RQG says of the Peaceful Cut

Quote

This skill is also known as butchering

as it ensures that the animals spirit/soul returns back to the right place, it’s an important concept in Glorantha. In all Orlanthi culture, Waha the Butcher is present ( Orlanth’s nephew). He’s not the Khan of the Praxians, he’s the butcher. Even in towns and cities. Other cultures will doubtless have a similar if not the same god with a different name. Although he’s likely present in the Lunar Empire in small part due to the Hungry Plateau Sables. Only amongst the western cultures is he likely to be missing.

the skill itself has a number of components; slaughtering - this is the actual peaceful cut part, not causing the animal suffering so it’s soul will pass on and not be tied to the animals death (see the example on page 228). There’s the butchering part - efficiently breaking apart the animal into its different usable parts. Finally there’s the ritual overtones, depending on culture, different rites are used. For example, the Praxians know a different song for each animal they sing to direct it’s spirit home. This starts during the slaughter and ends when the job is done. Other cultures will know different songs and perhaps use a specific knife for different jobs. The peaceful cut can be done without the ritual overtones, then it’s just butchery. I suspect all butchers use the peaceful cut part, to calm the animal before killing it, remember this happens outside their “shop”. This isn’t the world of abattoirs, it’s street slaughter with daily life’s gong on around them. 

[Joerg]

What is the situation with ritual sacrifice of beasts? Are the spirits/souls of these beasts released, or are they given to (into the care of) the recipient of the sacrifice? In other words, is the peaceful cut necessarily a part of animal sacrifice?

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What is the situation with ritual sacrifice of beasts? Are the spirits/souls of these beasts released, or are they given to (into the care of) the recipient of the sacrifice? In other words, is the peaceful cut necessarily a part of animal sacrifice?

Depends on the god/Pantheon and the why of the sacrifice. In the Orlanthi (earth)/Praxian pantheons, yes. However there will almost always be exceptions, like the Storm Bull example above. If the intention of the sacrifice is to cause suffering to the animal then no.

If using RQG or HQG, I’d certainly allow it as an augment on a ritual sacrifice, given the above. However as you can only have one augment, I’d just say it happens, if it’s not the augment needed. I would always assume it is used anyhow.

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Depends on the god/Pantheon and the why of the sacrifice. In the Orlanthi (earth)/Praxian pantheons, yes. However there will almost always be exceptions, like the Storm Bull example above.

Which Storm Bull example? Another thread?

 

49 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If the intention of the sacrifice is to cause suffering to the animal then no.

In case of the killing of a scapegoat animal sacrifice (unlikely to be an actual goat outside of Lunar interference), I can see why the peaceful cut wouldn't be applied, but then there is the question how that meat will be used. Dog food would be an alternative, if the sacrificers did keep dogs, but that's as rare in Dragon Pass as are domestic goats.

I am wondering about sacrifices to Humakt.

And what about sacrifices of horses (to Elmal)?

 

49 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If using RQG or HQG, I’d certainly allow it as an augment on a ritual sacrifice, given the above. However as you can only have one augment, I’d just say it happens, if it’s not the augment needed. I would always assume it is used anyhow.

So the worship (deity) skill sort of includes the Peaceful Cut, or replaces it in worship situations (where Cult Lore might be the more efficient augment)?

A majority of the meat consumed in an agricultural society (even in the cities) may originate in the sacrifices performed by the clan or the stead (compare the Paulus letter about consumption of sacrificial meat). Abstinence from meat consumption prior to a holy day may simply be lack of leftovers from the last sacrifices. A major reason to slaughter a beast outside of a sacrifice might be the requirements of hospitality. Those who can afford to house guests will eat better.

Among the Praxians, eating meat is the price for sapience, and beasts will be slaughtered outside of bigger religious rites, hence the ersatz-rite held by the butcher.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Which Storm Bull example? Another thread?

Apologies, I gave only the page reference, page 228

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am wondering about sacrifices to Humakt.

Swords, weapons of your fallen enemies. In areas where he is not the warrior but executioner, prisoners would be appropriate.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

And what about sacrifices of horses (to Elmal)?

Sounds good.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

So the worship (deity) skill sort of includes the Peaceful Cut, or replaces it in worship situations (where Cult Lore might be the more efficient augment)?

Worship (deity) does include the Peaceful Cut, but not the butchery part.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Among the Praxians, eating meat is the price for sapience, and beasts will be slaughtered outside of bigger religious rites, hence the ersatz-rite held by the butcher.

Praxians never slaughter outside of a religious rite. It's like christians who say Grace. That's not a worship ceremony, that's the Peaceful Cut.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Quote

And what about sacrifices of horses (to Elmal)?

Sounds good.

Using Waha's Peaceful Cut? Do the Pol Joni slaughter horses unfit to ride?

Unlike the Pure Horse Folk, the Pol Joni do worship Waha alongside their Orlanthi deities, and probably a number of horse deities (Yelm Kargzant, Elmal, Yelmalio, Pure Horse Founder/Hyalor).

Humakt certainly will accept the blood of animals spilled in his name. Will those beasts receive the Peaceful Cut or just the artful sword strike?

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Using Waha's Peaceful Cut? Do the Pol Joni slaughter horses unfit to ride?

I'd go and read up about horse sacrifices first.There's some excellent RW examples that are Gloranthan gold. Of course the Pol-Joni use the Peaceful Cut, Waha is kin, they just don't hold him as khan. As for unfit horses, may be, although there's likely horse magic that makes lameness much rarer in Glorantha.

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Unlike the Pure Horse Folk, the Pol Joni do worship Waha alongside their Orlanthi deities, and probably a number of horse deities (Yelm Kargzant, Elmal, Yelmalio, Pure Horse Founder/Hyalor).

You don't have to worship Waha to use the Peaceful Cut, as I said earlier

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Other cultures will doubtless have a similar if not the same god with a different name. Although he’s likely present in the Lunar Empire in small part due to the Hungry Plateau Sables. Only amongst the western cultures is he likely to be missing.

There's likely a candidate somewhere on the second row of the Gods Wall and then it will be called something like "The Glorious movement of returning soul"... 

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Humakt certainly will accept the blood of animals spilled in his name. Will those beasts receive the Peaceful Cut or just the artful sword strike?

The Peaceful cut when used by a Humakti ensures the animals soul is devoted to Humakt. It's part of Worship Humakt and I still think he'd prefer a sword. "I am Humakt, I am Death personified and you may sacrifice anything to me, as long as it's a sword".

I'd certainly use sword bog sacrifices as a model and certainly recommend both of PV Glob's books on along the way

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bog-People-P-V-Glob/dp/B003WSAW78/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mound-People-Danish-Bronze-Age-Preserved/dp/0801408008/ref=la_B000APTCQ8_1_2

 

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'd go and read up about horse sacrifices first.There's some excellent RW examples that are Gloranthan gold.

That is way beside the point you are avoiding: Using the Eirithan magic on this decidedly un-Eirithan beast, the horse.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Of course the Pol-Joni use the Peaceful Cut, Waha is kin, they just don't hold him as khan.

On their cattle, of course. They aren't monsters.

On beasts they hunted, they will use the equivalent blessing of Foundchild, Golden Bow or Odayla.

But what about horses or other demon-descended beasts? Isn't that a blasphemy in the face of Waha?

 

Would any Praxian use Peaceful Cut on a ham beetle?

Why does Frog Mother have to insist on spirit cult members to use Peaceful Cut on amphibians? Does this mean other Praxians don't have to use the skill when preparing a caught frog?

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

As for unfit horses, may be, although there's likely horse magic that makes lameness much rarer in Glorantha.

Such magic doesn't stop old age, and may be too late to stop vital damage sustained in battle.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

You don't have to worship Waha to use the Peaceful Cut, as I said earlier

You don't have to be an initiate of Elmal to worship him in your pantheon activities. Likewise, if Waha is the god of butchery and the source of the Peaceful Cut among Storm worshippers, then any use of the Peaceful Cut is an act of worship of Waha.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The Peaceful cut when used by a Humakti ensures the animals soul is devoted to Humakt. It's part of Worship Humakt and I still think he'd prefer a sword. "I am Humakt, I am Death personified and you may sacrifice anything to me, as long as it's a sword".

There are pre-battle sacrifices which are about the capturing of enemy swords. I doubt that the Humakti carry around a chest or basket of conquered blades for battle preparations. Freshly spilled blood to initiate blood-shed sounds just about right.

Post-battle sacrifices in thanks of a successful (or at least survived) battle are the times when blades get sacrificed. And you don't keep leftovers for later sacrifices, either you sacrifice a blade, and/or you recycle the metal, or you use the blade in his name.

It is ok to dedicate a blade before a battle, and sacrifice it afterwards, but that should involve fresh blood. Possibly from a self-inflicted cut, but better from a life given to Death.

The carcass of that beast will still be there after the battle, and provided you weren't routed from the field, so will be you, so the meat will be up for consumption (unless it already was, raw, or extremely rare).

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'd certainly use sword bog sacrifices as a model and certainly recommend both of PV Glob's books on along the way

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bog-People-P-V-Glob/dp/B003WSAW78/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mound-People-Danish-Bronze-Age-Preserved/dp/0801408008/ref=la_B000APTCQ8_1_2

You forgot to mention La Tene, or the report on the victory celebrations of the Cimbri and Teutones. And I live and work in between such sacrificial bogs, like Torsberger Moor at Süderbrarup.

But again (and again and again) these are post-battle sacrifices. Beasts would be slaughtered before the battle.

(I was quite underwhelmed by the use of two bunnies in Prince of Sartar's cradle-snatch rite upriver of Pavis. Sheep or bigger beasts would have been more appropriate.)

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That is way beside the point you are avoiding: Using the Eirithan magic on this decidedly un-Eirithan beast, the horse.

Peaceful Cut is not specific. It’s also a skill, and although it has a magical component it’s only a minor part of it. It subsumes:

• slaughtering an animal
• sending that animal’s soul or spirit on to the correct afterlife
• butchering

what is specific are the rites performed on the animal to send it on its way, but that is just colour. I believe that every animal has its own song that does this. However the general actions work as well, higher skill levels encompass your expanded knowledge.

Cultures that don’t worship any Pantheon that contains Waha still use the skill, so horses are okay as they are animals. Likewise all hunters will know it. It’s a fundamental Gloranthan ritual skill.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Likewise, if Waha is the god of butchery and the source of the Peaceful Cut among Storm worshippers, then any use of the Peaceful Cut is an act of worship of Waha.

I don’t see that as a problem, he’s a fundamental part of the cosmos. He’s the butcher god.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I don’t see that as a problem, he’s a fundamental part of the cosmos. He’s the butcher god.

Are there similar figures outside Genertela (or the Wastes and Dragon Pass)?

Because Pamaltela ought to have its own tradition. Or Not? Do the Agimori know the Peaceful Cut? Is Lunar meat taboo among the Praxians and Orlanthi?

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Are there similar figures outside Genertela (or the Wastes and Dragon Pass)?

Definitely

13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

 Because Pamaltela ought to have its own tradition. Or Not?

Im sure they’ve got their own god who oversees butchery - no idea who, but they’ve got the peaceful cut. 

13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Do the Agimori know the Peaceful Cut?

Yes

13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Is Lunar meat taboo among the Praxians and Orlanthi?

Why? Amongst the Praxians it was likely unheard of. Only those who had direct access to the lunar hierarchy likely had access to luxury goods like foreign meat (imported animals). I’m cant really think what animals the Lunars have that the Praxians and Orlanthi don’t have access too.

[soltakss]

On 9/19/2018 at 12:19 AM, Brootse said:

Does every city dwelling butcher perform the rites of the Peaceful cut, or do they just butcher the animal with a craft skill? And if so, and they later wanted to start using the Peaceful cut, how much would they get to the skill from their butcher skill?

No, butchers would use a Craft (Butchery) skill.

Peaceful Cut is used by Waha cultists, Hunter cultists and maybe Pentians, to send the souls of the creatures killed back to their source. It also sanctifies the meat somewhat.

I can see it as similar to Halal or Kosher in the real world, you kill the creature in a sacred way to make the meat blessed. After all, if you were Praxian, would you eat meat from a Praxian Herd Beast whose soul had not been sent back to Eiritha?

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

No, butchers would use a Craft (Butchery) skill.

See above, in RQG Peaceful cut is also known as butchery. Other editions may differ.

[jps]

I think that for simplicity sake, assuming that peaceful cut and butchery are the same is probably the good way to go. Now if we want to be nitpicking it is logical that peaceful cut would imply (aside from basic butchery) extra moves and know-how concerning rituals, good ways to cut the meat to honor the game you are about to eat and that a butcher won't be bothered with that.True butchery should be about more about manipulation and less about knowledge but, for gaming purpose, assuming that peaceful cut covers butchery is an acceptable approximation IMO.

[Brootse]

On 9/22/2018 at 7:45 PM, soltakss said:

No, butchers would use a Craft (Butchery) skill.

Peaceful Cut is used by Waha cultists, Hunter cultists and maybe Pentians, to send the souls of the creatures killed back to their source. It also sanctifies the meat somewhat.

I can see it as similar to Halal or Kosher in the real world, you kill the creature in a sacred way to make the meat blessed. After all, if you were Praxian, would you eat meat from a Praxian Herd Beast whose soul had not been sent back to Eiritha?

Yeah, that's why I thought that the RQ3 version was better, in that version the difference is the ceremony spell that is cast.

 

[Groovetronic]

Lets look at the myths. Let's take a butcher in Nochet, for example:

 

He probably worships Imarja and maybe Issaries/Garzeen or Ernalda/Uralda. Through Imarja and Ernalda/Uralda he probably does know the Peaceful Cut so that the souls of any cows he butchers can go back to the Cow Mother. This would IMO be a spell that would be cast while making the appropriate Craft (Butcher) roll.

Anyone involved in animal slaughtering would be taught by their cult their variant of the peaceful cut - rites to send the soul of the animal back to it's goddess/ancestors/etc.

Yes, I keep Peaceful Cut as a spell and have it rolled like one, so it can be affected by Ritual Practices, Meditation and Augments.

[jajagappa]

Just now, Groovetronic said:

He probably worships Imarja and maybe Issaries/Garzeen or Ernalda/Uralda. Through Imarja and Ernalda/Uralda he probably does know the Peaceful Cut so that the souls of any cows he butchers can go back to the Cow Mother. This would IMO be a spell that would be cast while making the appropriate Craft (Butcher) roll.

Imarja does not provide any direct/immediate benefit in this manner - as the divine feminine principle, she represents a distant, mystic path.  

Uralda the Cow Mother is most likely for cattle.  Nevala the sheep mother for sheep.  Trading the meat would be the province of Issaries/Garzeen.  

[Groovetronic]

Imarja supplies common, undifferentiated magic for the Earth pantheon and I can see her providing this. For my games, Imarja is the common source of Spirit Magic, especially non-combat spirit magic, in Esrolia, usually learnable through the Ernalda cult. YGMV. In my Glorantha, there are hundreds of spirit magic spells that are useful for daily life but have no applicability towards adventuring like spells that keep quills sharp, variations on The Peaceful Cut, Food Song, fixed MP spells that grant flat bonuses to craft skills, and other things.

For a butcher who trades in many different animals, I can see one version of Peaceful Cult gained through Eiritha/Ernalda would do it. You wouldn't need a different version of Peaceful Cut for each animal - Praxians prove this since their Peaceful Cut works not only on all Praxian herd animals but also on regular cattle and outlander herd beasts. Foundchild's Peaceful Cut works on any animal.

I presume Peaceful Cut is a nearly-universal kind of spell taught by a number of cults.

[Joerg]

35 minutes ago, Groovetronic said:

He probably worships Imarja and maybe Issaries/Garzeen or Ernalda/Uralda. Through Imarja and Ernalda/Uralda he probably does know the Peaceful Cut so that the souls of any cows he butchers can go back to the Cow Mother. This would IMO be a spell that would be cast while making the appropriate Craft (Butcher) roll.

I wouldn't think so. It isn't Eiritha or the Earth cults that provides the peaceful cut, but Waha, the related but strictly separate, male principle who does the killing.

 

20 minutes ago, Groovetronic said:

Imarja supplies common, undifferentiated magic for the Earth pantheon and I can see her providing this. For my games, Imarja is the common source of Spirit Magic, especially non-combat spirit magic, in Esrolia, usually learnable through the Ernalda cult. YGMV.

Mine does vary. The common source for Spirit Magic next to the cults would be Serdodrosa, the Earth Witch, the shamanistic approach to the element, rather than a disant transcendant one.

 

20 minutes ago, Groovetronic said:

In my Glorantha, there are hundreds of spirit magic spells that are useful for daily life but have no applicability towards adventuring like spells that keep quills sharp, variations on The Peaceful Cut, Food Song, fixed MP spells that grant flat bonuses to craft skills, and other things.

Are there hundreds? Or are those just different applications of known effects?

Coordination is very much a catch-all manipulation enhancement. The problem with work songs is their lack of duration, which is why I would feel way more comfortable to have your workday self-blessing as some kind of common sorcery rather than short boost spirit magic.

20 minutes ago, Groovetronic said:

For a butcher who trades in many different animals, I can see one version of Peaceful Cult gained through Eiritha/Ernalda would do it. You wouldn't need a different version of Peaceful Cut for each animal - Praxians prove this since their Peaceful Cut works not only on all Praxian herd animals but also on regular cattle and outlander herd beasts. Foundchild's Peaceful Cut works on any animal.

I presume Peaceful Cut is a nearly-universal kind of spell taught by a number of cults.

And it is the slayer cults, not the birther cults. Giving the butchery to an axe woman would be acceptable, but not giving it to any of the birthing cults.

The slayer is different from the prey, but the ritual makes him bridge that difference and act as a conduct to release that spirit into its afterlife, to be reborn.

[David Scott]

21 minutes ago, Groovetronic said:

Imarja supplies common, undifferentiated magic for the Earth pantheon and I can see her providing this. For my games, Imarja is the common source of Spirit Magic, especially non-combat spirit magic, in Esrolia, usually learnable through the Ernalda cult.

...

For a butcher who trades in many different animals, I can see one version of Peaceful Cult gained through Eiritha/Ernalda would do it. You wouldn't need a different version of Peaceful Cut for each animal - Praxians prove this since their Peaceful Cut works not only on all Praxian herd animals but also on regular cattle and outlander herd beasts. Foundchild's Peaceful Cut works on any animal.

 I presume Peaceful Cut is a nearly-universal kind of spell taught by a number of cults.

This is pretty much how the Peaceful Cut works. It’s near universal, in its gross form you don’t need a different version for each animal type, but in detail/background colour each animal has a different song that is sung/hummed/intoned as the ritual part (which aids efficiency). The sources are many, but the Storm / Earth Pantheon has Ernalda’s Daughter Eiritha (who is Uralda) who’s husband is Waha the butcher. In this respect he’s pretty universal. In Prax Waha actually learns the Peaceful Cut from Foundchild, although this isn’t universally known and learns the songs from the Protectresses. Food Song works pretty much the same way, but has a different emphasis.