Is barding a thing in Glorantha?

[Pentallion]

In RQ3 there was armor for the horse.  Not sure if there still is in RQG.  Can't find any reference to it or how much it would cost.

[womble]

I would hazzard a guess that it is 'not a thing' in the Homelands so far revealed. It strikes me as a more 'Western' development, culturally (I'm of the "Sartar is somewhat analogous to Germano-Celtic historical Iron Age culture, and barding wasn't around for them).

[metcalph]

The Glorantha Bestiary p147 describes heavy cavalry as a rider wearing heavy armour but no mention of barding for the horse which would even a greater weight constraint. 

The Guide p204 has a picture of four prominent people on horseback in Fronela inm a military context but only one (Meriatan) is riding a horse with apparent barding.  The Horse is clearly supernatural by the way it snorts cold fire.

Lord Death on a Horse's horse may have barding but the image is too small to be sure. 

A Seshnelan warrior is shown on a horse with barding p406.

Ethilrist, Jannisor, Hwarin Dalthippa etc are shown mounted without barding.

So my guess is that it exists but only in some parts of the west (I'm not sure if it exists in Carmania for example).  Most Gloranthans including those in the west find it easier to have magical or enchanted mounts instead

[Grievous]

I think if a rider is called a cataphract, barding is included in the package. Certainly the Western cultures and I do think Carmanians are described thusly as well. Seems like a Western invention that spread to the Lunars through Carmania. That's my view, at least.

[styopa]

7 hours ago, womble said:

(I'm of the "Sartar is somewhat analogous to Germano-Celtic historical Iron Age culture).

Heretic. 

To your point, nearly every military development really starts as a response to something else.  

Probably the earliest recognized barding was used by the cataphracts/clibanarii of the mideast...and in those cases I'd wager they were really a result of a few simultaneous streams of development:

1. - relative wealth (if it was expensive to armor-up a person, armoring up a whole horse would be crazy)
2. - a sophistication of metalworking techniques lowering the prices for metal armors (sort of a corollary to #1)
3. - a developing difference in the use of heavy cavalry as (literally) high-impact melee, primarily as a result of the adoption of the stirrup

As far as I can tell in Glorantha, pretty much nobody uses stirrups, meaning that mounted combat should be far less lethal*.  In the GtG p406 even the pictured Western cataphract doesn't have stirrups.   Since the medieval "heavy cavalry charge into melee'" then really wouldn't exist (yet), it's unlikely that riders would be interested in the significant reduction to mobility, agility, and endurance that barding caused to mounts.

*realistically, then, while there still might be an argument for using the mount's strength mod as a damage bonus for a charge, it should be capped by the maximum possible strength mod of the rider since literally it's only his/her strength (not the amazing full-body leverage of stirrups) applying the force.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

Heretic. 

To your point, nearly every military development really starts as a response to something else.  

Probably the earliest recognized barding was used by the cataphracts/clibanarii of the mideast...and in those cases I'd wager they were really a result of a few simultaneous streams of development:

1. - relative wealth (if it was expensive to armor-up a person, armoring up a whole horse would be crazy)
2. - a sophistication of metalworking techniques lowering the prices for metal armors (sort of a corollary to #1)
3. - a developing difference in the use of heavy cavalry as (literally) high-impact melee, primarily as a result of the adoption of the stirrup

As far as I can tell in Glorantha, pretty much nobody uses stirrups, meaning that mounted combat should be far less lethal*.  In the GtG p406 even the pictured Western cataphract doesn't have stirrups.   Since the medieval "heavy cavalry charge into melee'" then really wouldn't exist (yet), it's unlikely that riders would be interested in the significant reduction to mobility, agility, and endurance that barding caused to mounts.

*realistically, then, while there still might be an argument for using the mount's strength mod as a damage bonus for a charge, it should be capped by the maximum possible strength mod of the rider since literally it's only his/her strength (not the amazing full-body leverage of stirrups) applying the force.

 

Nevermind the barding, you fool!  You just mentioned stirrups in a post about Glorantha!

RUN FOR THE HILLS!

[M Helsdon]

Barding for horses goes way back into the Bronze Age, when chariot horses were often provided with basic armour, often padded linen or scale (usually leather, sometimes bronze). If the animals pulling a chariot are incapacitated, your expensive weapon platform is rendered unserviceable; often barbed arrows and javelins were used against the horses, causing if not immediate death, then gradual blood loss, so even if only one of the team were injured, the capabilities of the chariot would rapidly degrade. In response to this, the animals were provided with their own armour, with the cost of increasing their load and reducing their mobility and range.

In Glorantha, the chariots of the Sons of the Sun seem to have followed the same path, with a level of armour attempted never apparent in our history, until the chariots became slow cumbersome battle wagons and were no longer militarily useful. The chariots used by the Lunars lack that level of protection, but based on the reliefs from the palace in Boldhome, do have some protection (note also the protection about the necks of the lunar cavalry horses, which isn't just decorative or to keep the horse's head low to give the archer a better shot - this is probably based on the 'pompoms' used by the Assyrians for this purpose, and the peytral about the chest of a retreating horse in the upper panel, which may be barding).

Similarly, an Esrolian relief that depicts Elmal as the Sun Stallion, shows him wearing head protection (horses are very vulnerable to blows to the top of the head).

Horse armour is present in the West, and to a lesser degree in central Genertela, where at least one canonical illustration shows a horse with protection: The horse-zebra is protected on the chest with a woolen and felt peytral, decorated with a Man Rune signifying the cult of Pavis. Rows of woolen tassels offer some protection.

[And yes, I have been very carefully studying canonical illustrations, because the details therein are rarely accidental.]

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by M Helsdon

[styopa]

I've got a much clearer one for you, the one from p406 I'd mentioned:

Edited September 20, 2018 by styopa

[M Helsdon]

41 minutes ago, styopa said:

I've got a much clearer one for you, the one from p406 I'd mentioned:

That's the West (and sadly that horse is far too small to carry the armour, or that rider - one of Jan's rare misfires) and horse armour there was duly noted.

My reply referred to central Genertela.

[metcalph]

23 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

That's the West (and sadly that horse is far too small to carry the armour, or that rider - one of Jan's rare misfires) and horse armour there was duly noted.

The smallness of the horse is intentional.  As the legend states: "His horse, little more than a pony in height, is nonetheless strong enough to carry both the armored soldier and to wear scale barding."  The cause as Jeff has indicated in the past is the use of ancient Brithini strengthening spells which can only be cast on a horse that size even though bigger ones can now be grown.  

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

The smallness of the horse is intentional.  As the legend states: "His horse, little more than a pony in height, is nonetheless strong enough to carry both the armored soldier and to wear scale barding."  The cause as Jeff has indicated in the past is the use of ancient Brithini strengthening spells which can only be cast on a horse that size even though bigger ones can now be grown.  

I'm not convinced.

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I'm not convinced.

Since the artists in the Guide were given the text of the illustration to work from rather than the text being a description, it seems a bit churlish to describe the small horse as one of Jan's misfires.

[Tindalos]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

The smallness of the horse is intentional.  As the legend states: "His horse, little more than a pony in height, is nonetheless strong enough to carry both the armored soldier and to wear scale barding."  The cause as Jeff has indicated in the past is the use of ancient Brithini strengthening spells which can only be cast on a horse that size even though bigger ones can now be grown.  

Yeah, the Iron Blood (or local equivalent) school probably has sorcerers devoted to enchanting the mounts of cataphracts, casting Enhance STR on them all, while those riders who lack access to this may know the Strength spirit magic spell instead.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I'm not convinced.

I find myself in a similar situation, with regard to the art direction. The text in the Guide tells us that Horali are small of stature, yet both the Horali pictured (in this image and in the court scene in the Seshnela chapter) are rather tall, rivaling the Zzaburi.

 

The strengthening of horses among the Brithini would have benefitted the Talar commanders with regard to armor protection, but would not have served any combat advantage to orthodox Talars. Even with bashing scepters and throwing crowns, fighting Brithini Talars are far from effective cavalry. Brithtini Horali were foot soldiers, forbidden to ride horses.

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

 Brithtini Horali were foot soldiers, forbidden to ride horses.

Not seeing any evidence for this.

[Joerg]

Not seeing any evidence for mounted Horali outside of the Rokari blasphemy, inherited from acculturated Enerali. Getting fighters on horseback was one effect of Hrestol's introduction of the Men of All.

The published sources for Gray and Dawn Age Seshnela aren't that verbose - the best we have is the half page describing the image of Ylream in the Guide. I am confident that future treatment of the west will make good use of Greg's mostly unpublished prose.

[metcalph]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I find myself in a similar situation, with regard to the art direction. The text in the Guide tells us that Horali are small of stature, yet both the Horali pictured (in this image and in the court scene in the Seshnela chapter) are rather tall, rivaling the Zzaburi.

The text for the picture says "Riding beside the palanquin is a sturdy man of the Soldier caste. He is about 6 foot, 6 inches tall with pale reddish skin and brown hair." Guide p408.  Please could you cite a description of the Horali being small of statue?  The only relevant text is "Though small, the Arolanit army is one of the best in the world" Guide p407 which is a statement about the size of the Arolanit army rather than their troops!

[metcalph]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Not seeing any evidence for mounted Horali outside of the Rokari blasphemy, inherited from acculturated Enerali. Getting fighters on horseback was one effect of Hrestol's introduction of the Men of All.

I'm not the one making categorical statements about what was forbidden to the Brithini.  There are any number of reasons why the Hrestoli can be so strongly associated with rding other than they were breaking a Brithini caste taboo.  So when generalizing about subjects in the future, could you at least ground it in published facts or indicate that it's your own theory?

 

[Tindalos]

32 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Not seeing any evidence for this.

GtG 407 specifies that horses are reserved for Talars.

It never directly says that it's forbidden, just that Horali never ride them, so I figure Arolanit's Horali are all infantry.

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

GtG 407 specifies that horses are reserved for Talars.

It never directly says that it's forbidden, just that Horali never ride them, so I figure Arolanit's Horali are all infantry.

Your interpretation is correct but that's a statement about Arolanit's soldiers rather than Brithini soldiers (which also includes Brithos, Akem and God Forgot).

And even in a Brithini society there can be more than one source of prohibition.

By way of example, catholic priests are forbidden to marry.  This isn't a rule set down by Catholic interpretation of scripture for there is nothing scripturally wrong with priests marrying.  It's just that in the early middle ages, sons of priests used to claim their daddy's churches as inherited property and it was quite a pain getting the churches back of them (I'm simplifying a lot here).  So to combat this practice, the western church passed a disciplinary (as opposed to one from canon) rule that priests were forbidden to marry.  And since from that time, catholic priests with a few exceptions are unmarried.

Turning this to the good people of Arolanit.  In the first few centuries after the Dawn, they are confronted with the spectacle of horse-riding maniacs spewing Hrestol's madness.  To ensure the insanity did not corrupt their own troops, the Talars might have decided that from now on, no solider is permitted to ride a horse.  As it's not a caste breaking taboo, the soldiers can still ride horses without aging.  But because Arolanit is a deeply conservative society respectful of the will of the talars, their soldiers do not ride horses.  Could a Talar permit a solider to ride a horse today?  Yes.  Will he do so?  Never.  

That's why I find inferences about the Brithini in general from the specific example of Arolanit to see so unconvincing.

[Joerg]

The Brithini exiles of Frowal and neighboring colonies had similar restrictions, but Hrestol's Men of All lifted them.

I know that Peter doesn't put much trust into the novels and novel fragments that preceded White Bear and Red Moon, but I find too much local detail from such sources in the western cities of the Guide that have filled out the rather patchy information we received in Genertela Book.

The Malkioni Castes aren't just an arbitrary restriction of what low-born people are forbidden to aspire to, and what high-born people need to avoid to become soiled. They were designed to reinforce the magical talent of the original members of that caste, also reinforced by the choice of mothers from the right goddesses before the nearly all-male population of Danmalastan grew a sufficient number of daughters to inbreed, and then spreading those daughters' offspring over the castes and undoing the original purpose of keeping the blood pure. (Hence the only wishy-washy coloring of the Malkioni, compared to the stronger hues of original Brithini. Acculturation of Wareran Hykimi did play a role in this, too.)

The Rokari reform of the fivefold castes of the Hrestoli who came before them (whether you call them Makanists or whatever) merged the Men-of-All with both the Horali and the Talari. All Talari received the duties of the Men-of-All, and those Men-of-All without sufficiently noble pedigree ended up as the Soldier caste.

I don't think that the Brithini Horali ever had regiments with beast totems, that's a Seshnegi and Akemite development among the Hrestoli. Adoption of the Tanisoran horse-riding Enerali might have opened a way for non-heavy cavalry auxiliaries in the Soldier Caste for those who did not manage or aspire to become Men-of-All.

Horses with barding prior to the Rokari con(/per)version clearly look like a noble and/or Man-of-All privilege to me.

 

Peter's example about celibacy would be best applied to the celibacy of the Rokari wizards. Monastic orders of the Hrestoli Makanists may have practiced this earlier (as evidenced by that order in Jonatela), but as their sectarian choice, not as a general dictate.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Since the artists in the Guide were given the text of the illustration to work from rather than the text being a description, it seems a bit churlish to describe the small horse as one of Jan's misfires.

Um, the published text is different from the art direction text. I know, because I rewrote many of them for Jeff. Unfortunately, for my rewrites, I didn't see the actual artwork.

 I don't recall if I saw the art direction text for this one. Sadly, it's my view that the composition of this piece is not up to Jan's usual standard: it has two 'problems': the horse and rider; the way in which the palanquin is being carried (or not being carried). I'm a fan of Jan's work, but that doesn't mean that I can't question one particular piece...

[metcalph]

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Brithini exiles of Frowal and neighboring colonies had similar restrictions, but Hrestol's Men of All lifted them.

Source?

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I know that Peter doesn't put much trust into the novels and novel fragments that preceded White Bear and Red Moon, but I find too much local detail from such sources in the western cities of the Guide that have filled out the rather patchy information we received in Genertela Book.

 

I find the notion that the Brithini would have caste restrictions on riding horses to be about as credible as many of the other archaic details therein (such as the arm-wrestling match).  In any case, you still shouldn't be using them as a authoritative support for whatever dull theory that you're are busy trotting out.  Nope.  Strike that.  At least the horali hobbits was amusing,.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

The Malkioni Castes aren't just an arbitrary restriction of what low-born people are forbidden to aspire to, and what high-born people need to avoid to become soiled. They were designed to reinforce the magical talent of the original members of that caste, also reinforced by the choice of mothers from the right goddesses before the nearly all-male population of Danmalastan grew a sufficient number of daughters to inbreed, and then spreading those daughters' offspring over the castes and undoing the original purpose of keeping the blood pure. (Hence the only wishy-washy coloring of the Malkioni, compared to the stronger hues of original Brithini. Acculturation of Wareran Hykimi did play a role in this, too.)

Somewhere in there is supposed to be a reason why soliders should not ride horses.  But it makes no sense and we are supposed to accept that the Kingdom of Logic imposed a baffling restriction

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Rokari reform of the fivefold castes of the Hrestoli who came before them (whether you call them Makanists or whatever) merged the Men-of-All with both the Horali and the Talari. All Talari received the duties of the Men-of-All, and those Men-of-All without sufficiently noble pedigree ended up as the Soldier caste.

Once again you are generalizing on  irrelevant matters and getting details wrong.  The Rokari did not reform the fivefold castes of the Hrestoli.  The Rokari had no interest in reforming anything Hrestoli.  The Rokari did not want anything Hrestoli within their castes.  Any men-of-all unfortunate to end up in the clutches of the Rokari reformers would have been lucky if he was merely hanged from the nearest tree.

The Rokari reformed the society prescribed by the Abiding Book.  One of the reforms was the abolition of any tolerance of the Hrestoli.  

The Hrestoli are not an accepted part of orthodox Malkionism.  They are a nonconformist tradition with their own precepts.  They do not care for the Abiding Book or whatever the wizards are teaching for they are their own Laws.  Interactions between them and the Malkioni establishments have been based on caution, fear and practicality.

 

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Peter's example about celibacy would be best applied to the celibacy of the Rokari wizards. Monastic orders of the Hrestoli Makanists may have practiced this earlier (as evidenced by that order in Jonatela), but as their sectarian choice, not as a general dictate.

My point wasn't about celibacy.  It was about that restrictions can be based on something other than doctrine.  And there are no Hrestoli Makanists.  Makan is a creation of the Abiding Book and the Hrestoli do not care for that.

[metcalph]

10 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

 I don't recall if I saw the art direction text for this one. Sadly, it's my view that the composition of this piece is not up to Jan's usual standard: it has two 'problems': the horse and rider; the way in which the palanquin is being carried (or not being carried). I'm a fan of Jan's work, but that doesn't mean that I can't question one particular piece...

Given that the text mentions that the rider is large and the horse is small and that elsewhere Jan draws more conventional sized horses (the Fronelan Four), I daresay Jan was told to draw a small horse as I have seen Jeff in the past mention a spell based on a horse's specific size.  

[M Helsdon]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

Given that the text mentions that the rider is large and the horse is small and that elsewhere Jan draws more conventional sized horses (the Fronelan Four), I daresay Jan was told to draw a small horse as I have seen Jeff in the past mention a spell based on a horse's specific size.  

And checking the original art direction, you are correct....