Is barding a thing in Glorantha?

[soltakss]

So, we have an illustration in an official, canonical supplement and that is still not good enough? What is wrong with you people?

Clearly, barding is a thing in Glorantha and is used.

Now, Pentians might use different types of horse armour than western knights, but I'd guess they would use cuirboilli or leather armour, at least, maybe scale or ring armour.

[Joerg]

46 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So, we have an illustration in an official, canonical supplement and that is still not good enough? What is wrong with you people?

This is the place where some of us argue about the absence of evidence... like Peter's erroneous protest against my use of Hrestolism as the root and integral component for all brands of Second Age Malkionism.

 

46 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Clearly, barding is a thing in Glorantha and is used.

Now, Pentians might use different types of horse armour than western knights, but I'd guess they would use cuirboilli or leather armour, at least, maybe scale or ring armour.

Are there any birds in the region whose (possibly layered?) wings provide enough armor to be used as both decoration and barding? Two birds with one stone - the horse's Sky origin will be strengthened, and rather light armor can be taken from those hateful ratites or similar rival birds.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, we have an illustration in an official, canonical supplement and that is still not good enough? What is wrong with you people?

Clearly, barding is a thing in Glorantha and is used.

Now, Pentians might use different types of horse armour than western knights, but I'd guess they would use cuirboilli or leather armour, at least, maybe scale or ring armour.

Horn and hooves were historically used as armour. However, such barding would be used by a small contingent of shock heavy cavalry after the enemy have been successfully disrupted by the mass of horse archers.

There's the problem that many nomads in Pent (and some in Prax) don't have access to riding animals sufficiently strong to carry an armoured rider and wear armour themselves. Barding and similar protection significantly reduces the mobility and range of heavy cavalry.

[Pentallion]

None of which has anything to do with my original question, but glad to know I can start yet another debate between Metcalph and Jeorg.  We don't get enough of those.  🙄

[Joerg]

46 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

None of which has anything to do with my original question, but glad to know I can start yet another debate between Metcalph and Jeorg.  We don't get enough of those.  🙄

apropos trolls: Do uz insect riders use barding, or is the natural armor value of chitin good enough for them?

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, we have an illustration in an official, canonical supplement and that is still not good enough? What is wrong with you people?

The argument was not over the existence of barding but whether the artist got it wrong by depicting a small horse.

[metcalph]

49 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

None of which has anything to do with my original question, but glad to know I can start yet another debate between Metcalph and Jeorg.  We don't get enough of those.  🙄

I don't find this funny and it hasn't been funny for quite some time.  I've largely giving up on reading through Joerg's lengthy prose and I avoid arguments with him and I've seen others do so as well.  

[Pentallion]

Well, sorry I shouldn't have said that.  You guys both bring a lot of good knowledge.  It's just that one of you is obviously Irrippi Ontor and the other Lhankor Mhy and you always disagree and when that happens it seldom stays on topic.

Let's get back to the topic:  Obviously there is enough proof that yes, barding IS a thing in RQG.  What can we infer then about its cost and weight and now that we know there is a STR and SIZ limit for carrying heavily armored riders, how much should barding add to the minimum stats necessary to carry an armored rider AND wear barding?

How many "things" is barding?  Well, first off, I'm guessing the SIZE of the rider is added to his "things" and this must be the what forms the basis of the average size and Str of the horse that's needed to carry a rider.  I"m basing this on a warhorse needing an average STR and SIZ of 26.  Average human size is 13.  Average armor "things" for plate armor is 11 and with leather under and quilted 13.  Total 26.  So how many 'things' does each piece of armor contribute to a horse?  I would guess the same as it does to a human.  For a human, carrying the horses armor would be really hard, but it's meant to spread the weight around a horse so plate shin guards would be 2 "things" for hind legs and two "things" for forelegs and so forth.  These "things" then increase the necessary average STR and SIZE needed for the warhorse.

How much does it cost?  An average horse is about twice the size of an average human.  So a quick off the cuff estimate is twice the cost of the equivalent human armor.  However, I could - and just did - whip out my RQ 3 books and compare barding to human armor.  Doing so, I see it varies but a simple rule of thumb would be that a horses armor cost 50% more than human armor of the same type.

So I guess I unofficially answered my own question.

That is, unless someone spots the answer somewhere in the new rules and I just missed it.

Thanks for playing Pin the Breastplate on the Goldeneye.

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Pentallion

[boztakang]

On 9/22/2018 at 1:21 PM, Joerg said:

apropos trolls: Do uz insect riders use barding, or is the natural armor value of chitin good enough for them?

I suspect it would be extremely rare. Chitin is pretty darn good armor to start with. And Uz in general are more comfortable crafting chitin than metal anyhoo. Just breed for thicker shells if you need more AP.

(that said, I'm sure someuz could have tried it somewhere... with results determined by YGMV)

[M Helsdon]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 9:21 PM, Joerg said:

apropos trolls: Do uz insect riders use barding, or is the natural armor value of chitin good enough for them?

It depends on whether giant insects breathe through  spiracles or not. If they do, then these have to be left open, otherwise the insect suffocates. These still leave large areas which could be armoured. I suspect trolls don't put barding on their mounts because they can be easily replaced, if not too far from home, and make a delicious meal.

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

It depends on whether giant insects breathe through  spiracles or not. If they do, then these have to be left open, otherwise the insect suffocates.

Sure, although with suitable distance holders, especially such more vulnerable openings along the carapace could be shielded.

Quote

These still leave large areas which could be armoured. I suspect trolls don't put barding on their mounts because they can be easily replaced, if not too far from home, and make a delicious meal.

The same could be said for just about any mount. In the middle of the battle, I somehow think that getting your 12 foot tall praying mantis taken out for lack of armor is a tad inconvenient for your tactical role. But then, the legs are a known weakness, and don't take well to barding, making Protection the easier proposal.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Joerg

[David Scott]

Don't forget your High Llama armour:

from the Guide 

https://www.deviantart.com/merlkir/art/GtG-07-Nomads-of-Prax-446564420

For RQG

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/kVYk0

and here's a link that contains Gene Days' original from Nomad Gods in 1977, with super single plate

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by David Scott
added link to Nomad Gods original HL armour

[David Scott]

So to summarise:

Horse armour - Yes

Insect armour - no

High Llama armour -Yes

Have we missed any pictures?

[soltakss]

Rhino Riders use Rhino skin as armour. Because Rhinos are very strong, why can't they wear a rhino plate set of barding?

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Rhino Riders use Rhino skin as armour. Because Rhinos are very strong, why can't they wear a rhino plate set of barding?

That's probably not very common, rhino hide is rare and used mostly for the riders' armour. And rhinoes already have a thick skin that's easily improved with magic before charging.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Rhino Riders use Rhino skin as armour. Because Rhinos are very strong, why can't they wear a rhino plate set of barding?

Not all of a hide is suitable for turning into armour - only the thickest hide, usually found on the back of the animal - which would be true for a rhino as for most other herd animals. To make rhino barding for a rhino, you'd probably need to use hide from two or four other rhino. This would be a good way of depleting your herd, unless you wait for old animals to die 'naturally'. As rhinos are in steady decline, hastening it won't be sensible. Instead, rhino barding might be made from the hide of other herd beasts, but again, you'd require many hides to armour one rhino. Whilst rhinos are strong and their charge is ferocious, they aren't long distance travelers, and the extra load will reduce their mobility.

In this world, rhinos have a home range of between 12 (wet season) and 20 (dry season) square kilometres, so most don't travel more than a few kilometres a day. Things may be different in Glorantha, but the more weight you put on your 'battle tank', the slower it goes and the more fuel it needs.

Edited September 28, 2018 by M Helsdon

[scott-martin]

On 9/21/2018 at 5:43 AM, Tindalos said:

 It never directly says that it's forbidden, just that Horali never ride them, so I figure Arolanit's Horali are all infantry.

This gets even more muddled when in the Genertela Box era Arolanit horals got Ride x3. The talars did not. Granted this was in the days when you couldn't trust the art but the demographic tables were extremely useful.

Probably another of the mysteries of the place. Hunting the horal hobbit now. I know I've seen that reference too, although centuries of breeding with the Tanisorites and others probably give the Bailifes a larger frame to support their bulk.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This gets even more muddled when in the Genertela Box era Arolanit horals got Ride x3. The talars did not. Granted this was in the days when you couldn't trust the art but the demographic tables were extremely useful.

Probably another of the mysteries of the place. Hunting the horal hobbit now. I know I've seen that reference too, although centuries of breeding with the Tanisorites and others probably give the Bailifes a larger frame to support their bulk.

Rereading the unpublished Hrestol's Saga, it looks like Brithini of any caste but Talar mustn't _own_ horses, but soldiers may ride them in the service of the owning Talar. All Brithini soldiers in that Dawn Age snippet are strictly trained to a single set of weapon skills, meaning that spearmen are never cross-trained as swordsmen. Their general regards that specialization as asset and the flexibility of the Seshnegi approach as a liability.

I have no idea whether the Pendali would have been of significantly larger stature than the Seshnegi or the Enerali (whose horses are the Galana pony, which does limit rider size on non-augmented steeds). I know that I (with my 2m frame and a bit more bulk than the necessary muscle and bone) probably will have to do any attempts at riding on charger-sized equines (or directly on pachyderms).

 

[Pentallion]

On 9/28/2018 at 2:19 PM, M Helsdon said:

Not all of a hide is suitable for turning into armour - only the thickest hide, usually found on the back of the animal - which would be true for a rhino as for most other herd animals. To make rhino barding for a rhino, you'd probably need to use hide from two or four other rhino. This would be a good way of depleting your herd, unless you wait for old animals to die 'naturally'. As rhinos are in steady decline, hastening it won't be sensible. Instead, rhino barding might be made from the hide of other herd beasts, but again, you'd require many hides to armour one rhino. Whilst rhinos are strong and their charge is ferocious, they aren't long distance travelers, and the extra load will reduce their mobility.

In this world, rhinos have a home range of between 12 (wet season) and 20 (dry season) square kilometres, so most don't travel more than a few kilometres a day. Things may be different in Glorantha, but the more weight you put on your 'battle tank', the slower it goes and the more fuel it needs.

Not to mention it might die from heat.

[M Helsdon]

9 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Not to mention it might die from heat.

Rhinos lack sweat glands and so can only regulate their body temperature by seeking out water and mud to help rid themselves of excess heat.

Given the lack of water or wallowing places in Prax and the Wastelands, Gloranthan rhinos must have another means of thermoregulation. Perhaps they have sweat glands?

In the Near East, barding was made such that it could be opened to permit the horse to sweat, when not expecting to be immediately in battle.

[M Helsdon]

I'll just leave this here...

[Joerg]

On 10/4/2018 at 9:09 PM, M Helsdon said:

Rhinos lack sweat glands and so can only regulate their body temperature by seeking out water and mud to help rid themselves of excess heat.

Given the lack of water or wallowing places in Prax and the Wastelands, Gloranthan rhinos must have another means of thermoregulation. Perhaps they have sweat glands?

Digging into cold soil can replace mud as a heat receptor. Little of that available in the Praxian afternoon, however, unless they dig deep.

Given the Rhino tribe's earth connections, this kind of heat exchange with the earth might be runic in nature, and might ignore normal physics.