Three New Stars, Three New Gods?

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I don't think a cult that's too small would be able to support multiple rune lords.

A minor temple is only 150–500 lay members and initiates and "the staff consists of several Rune Priests led by a Chief Priest", the figure we normally use for "magic people" is 1%, so 5 RLs is not unreasonable. 

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Do chariots being aerial platforms help?

Not really: they are a bigger target than someone flying by themselves or on a mount... About the only advantage they'd have would be the capability to carry more quivers of javelins.

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Not really: they are a bigger target than someone flying by themselves or on a mount... About the only advantage they'd have would be the capability to carry more quivers of javelins.

Fair point.

[Leingod]

56 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Not really: they are a bigger target than someone flying by themselves or on a mount... About the only advantage they'd have would be the capability to carry more quivers of javelins.

Or if you want to be Gloranthan Santa Claus, using mighty Rune Lord powers to pull off some kind of experimental Heroquest that involves carrying lots of gifts in a magic bag in a flying chariot and visit all the good little Orlanthi boys and girls in one night. For bonus points, Varnaval was apparently associated with the ordeeds, a kind of antelope who pulled chariots for the Andam Horde.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Leingod

[jeffjerwin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanth "stole"/copied the Aroka dragonslaying from Vadrus, and passed that on to Barntar (which would have given Vadrus enough grief to explain though not excuse his slaying of Barntar). But Orlanth has two more dragonslayings under his kilt - the Black Dragon of Blackorm Mountain (Cliffhome, aka Conquest Mountain), and Sh'Harkarzeel, the former owner of the head, whose utuma was caused by decapitation and no such "rip the great beast apart from between the jaws" shenanigans. It is possible that Vadrus demonstrated that it could be done, but Orlanth showed several ways how to.

The Stone Dragon of Skull Ruins as well. Not sure about the Black Dragon... isn't he hanging with Cragspider?

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Stone Dragon of Skull Ruins as well. Not sure about the Black Dragon... isn't he hanging with Cragspider?

She brought it back from Hell.

[jeffjerwin]

Just now, Joerg said:

She brought it back from Hell.

Ah, that's right.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Not really: they are a bigger target than someone flying by themselves or on a mount... About the only advantage they'd have would be the capability to carry more quivers of javelins.

And a wall of armour covering the lower part of the body (leggs and abdomen).

And height advantage against horse riders.

And big scythes on the wheels to cut people down (Cinematic of course, not historical).

[Leingod]

15 minutes ago, soltakss said:

And big scythes on the wheels to cut people down (Cinematic of course, not historical).

No, the scythed chariot was actually a historical thing, it's just that they were of limited effectiveness. The Persians used them to break up the close ranks of Greek hoplites and allow the cavalry to charge (since horses are too smart to run into a seemingly solid mass), which they were at least somewhat successful at. They saw at least some use up until Roman times. There's also some debatable evidence that pre-Roman Britons used scythed chariots, and one appears in The Cattle Raid of Cooley as well.

The Romans themselves might have experimented with a variant on this at some point, too, which would have been essentially a pair of cataphracts on horseback drawing a stripped-down "chariot" that was basically a bladed axle on wheels, though it's probably just some Roman guy throwing weird ideas at the wall. Still, it looks pretty cool in a really stupid way.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Leingod

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The donkey probably has less elaborate myths of origin and less ostentatious races and breeds than the horse, but just because one pantheon associates an animal with one deity doesn't mean that all other pantheons are likewise bound.

No argument here! However, this is the culture that created the Perfect Sky and so their associations with Donkey are the first line of investigation. Donkey is an immigrant to Peloria either way ("Equus Pentica" and 89 is one of the Later Stars). What I'm nudging against here is whether the mule cult might've come to the Perfect Sky culture under the auspices of the Lodrilite complex . . . we see Lodril introduce other strange gods and the presence of Harp among all these eastern-sounding entities (rice, flowers, Jenarong) indicates a "celestial court" influence. (I'm open to the Later Stars coming from the Pelandan side as well, but in the case of Donkey, Pent points east.) 

Either way, the mule god is now happily identified with Timekeeper the Wagon Planet, loaded with mysteries. Why is "normal" starlight orange like modern storm, I wonder. The star tribes were strong among the early storm people.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

the Black Dragon of Blackorm Mountain

Cragspider often slips my mind as the other troll figure who conquers fire. Hers is of course of the descending ("sky fall") variety, maybe coincidentally similar to Tanian or the sun spear mastered by Avivath (named after star 88), priest of Antirius. Her mountain overlooking the Hard Earth site remains unshorn. I don't know if it's volcanically active. Given her description as an ancient "nymph" I wonder if she incorporated components of early XU that were abandoned in the First Age conflicts . . . maybe including sky insights now lost to the exoteric XU cult.

5 hours ago, Leingod said:

A bunch of tattooed raiders riding in on horse-sized rams

Yikes! This sounds like the kind of thing they're getting up to in Lankst with their lightning and their chariots.

Not to revive any sleeping chariot wars but is there a charioteer on the Wall? Archaic Peloria called the blue planet something other than Mastakos. What do modern Dara Happans worship when they bring out their ancestral chariots, if not the Jenarong Rites?

[soltakss]

20 minutes ago, Leingod said:

No, the scythed chariot was actually a historical thing

Thanks! I can now use them with the greatest of pleasure.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

No argument here! However, this is the culture that created the Perfect Sky and so their associations with Donkey are the first line of investigation. Donkey is an immigrant to Peloria either way ("Equus Pentica" and 89 is one of the Later Stars).

It is sort of strange that the Hyalorings Beren and Ulanin and their god Elmal are associated with the Ehilm-descended galana pony in that old document on horse breeds, and not with the sered which apparently is the Gamara horse of Reladivus of Nivorah.

I wonder which of the ancient charioteer culture used donkeys rather than horses - the Starlight Ancestors were pedestrians when they left Garsting, if I interprete the texts that explain them correctly.

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

What I'm nudging against here is whether the mule cult might've come to the Perfect Sky culture under the auspices of the Lodrilite complex . . . we see Lodril introduce other strange gods and the presence of Harp among all these eastern-sounding entities (rice, flowers, Jenarong) indicates a "celestial court" influence.

While the mule certainly is a most useful beast of burden for traders dealing with off-road situations, the special function of "both horse and not-horse" applies only to Prax, and should have played little role elsewhere where there was no taboo to riding horses. (Galanini-dominated Ralios might have been another place with a horse-riding taboo for the non-Galanini, but that may be fanon rather than canon.)

Some variety of rice is grown in all the riverine lowlands of Genertela except maybe Fronela. There is no explicit mention of rice for Slontos or Esrolia, but I think that Great Ernalda would honor her rice-growing daughters at Ezel, too, and some may be found in the Esrolian mesopotamia.

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

(I'm open to the Later Stars coming from the Pelandan side as well, but in the case of Donkey, Pent points east.) 

Apart from donkey vs. onager, we don't have any mythical mention of this most useful beast. It should be at least as present in Genertela as its bigger cousin, the horse.

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Either way, the mule god is now happily identified with Timekeeper the Wagon Planet, loaded with mysteries.

Ten-day-period Lokarnos? I know about the wagons, but not about the draft beasts - I assumed oxen. With bull sacrifice in the name of the Dara Happan chief priest Buserian, there should be oxen available in that culture, also for plowing, and they are far superior to horses or donkeys under the yoke.

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Why is "normal" starlight orange like modern storm, I wonder. The star tribes were strong among the early storm people.

Normal starlight (including planets and moons) is white or yellow, with only a few exceptions. Two green stellar objects, a few blue ones, a number of shades of red, and orange ones for Storm-related ones.

 

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Cragspider often slips my mind as the other troll figure who conquers fire.  

...

Given her description as an ancient "nymph" I wonder if she incorporated components of early XU that were abandoned in the First Age conflicts . . . maybe including sky insights now lost to the exoteric XU cult.

When I see "nymph" and "darkness" combined, my RQ3-trained bestiary thinks of the hag, a nymph of dark and forbidding places, ugly to humans, but probably quite the symbol of dark fertility to darkness races. A creature like Kyger Litor, really, only associated with a much smaller area.

Heroic Cragspider overcame those local bonds (possibly by developing additional presences, as per Arcane Lore) and was active in much greater area than any normal nymph has business to be. I doubt that Conquest Mountain was her original home, she probably moved there after mastering the Firewitch magic (which is the most powerful exotic effect in the Dragon Pass game, or tied with that of the Hound, in the number of hexes eliminated).

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

which of the ancient charioteer culture used donkeys rather than horses

Great question! We know now there was forest in archaic Pent to provide materials. They might appear as an early wave of "jenarong" that wasn't quite so militarily ambitious (or capable) and so was absorbed into the Lodrilite landscape instead of conquering the cities. They might well have been forced out of Pent ahead of the horse jenarong, the troll irruption that encountered Basko or both . . . since we're here, the extinction of the onager people probably hints at what happened to the tribes who stubbornly stood their ground. The trolls went east. The people we know about went west and when the forest was gone only riders were left behind. 

Some of the people might have gone east and their ancestors would preserve a donkey figure of their own.

Trying to leave this thread relatively on topic so am holding most of the rest of your notes for digestion elsewhere. (I misread you on stars being "orange" by default . . . obviously that only really applies in the Ring, but there is still a lot of orange up there.) So quick placeholders for the future . . . or for threadbreakers.

* What does the world look like if archaic "Ernalda" achieves her ubiquity as a rice goddess?

* Were there mules before horse became a taboo animal in Prax and created an economic opportunity ("greater bonus")? I think there were but this is one of the secrets of the cult.

* Do the planetary entities come with Dendara from the east? If so, does this point to an Artmalite influence? 

* As seducer of Soul Arranger it strikes me that Cragspider now has a nebulous role in the genealogy of Orlanth, being one of grandpa's old girlfriends. And Larnste is first of the mountain gods, friend of "Lodril" and others.

* On the other side of the family there's that esoteric story of infant Issaries orchestrating the conception of "Umath." Issaries is son of the Arranger and Harmony (Harp, Star 86). People are very careful to include Harana Ilor in lists of mountain makers although hers is inverted and now flooded. 
 

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

And a wall of armour covering the lower part of the body (leggs and abdomen).

Until the animals pulling it are hit, die, and plunge to the ground taking the chariot car with them...

[Joerg]

Just now, M Helsdon said:

Until the animals pulling it are hit, die, and plunge to the ground taking the chariot car with them...

They might wear specific barding? (ducks)

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Thanks! I can now use them with the greatest of pleasure.

Just be warmed, that a common outcome was the chariot turning in the face of the enemy and racing back to disrupt their own ranks.

[M Helsdon]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

They might wear specific barding? (ducks)

It would be inhumane to use ducks as armour plating for a chariot.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

It would be inhumane to use ducks as armour plating for a chariot.

Sure. But the underbellies of sheep may just... I mean, Beast Folk...

[Sir_Godspeed]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

In our old RQ Campaign, the PCs freed Baroshi and he gained a cult. As he gained more worshippers, they gained the secret of his Thunderstone Sword, so gained a spell that was like the Bless Thunderstone seplll from RQ3, but allowed the worshipper to bless a Thunderstone sword, giving it Thunderstone powers for 15 minutes. He also gained the Great Parry spell from Babeester Gor. In fact, a lot of Babeester Gor worshippers joined Baroshi as a subcult, for his skill at fighting Chaos. I think I also gave him Face Chaos, as he never retreated from Chaos.

Him being a particularly potent protector against grain rots seems plausible also. Less heroic, perhaps, but arguably more useful.

10 hours ago, Leingod said:

If nothing else, chariot races might become popular with Orlanthi in more urbanized areas, with cultists of Mastakos, Varnaval and Saren all having races on holy days and maybe settling arguments and competitions in that way.

They might become the Orlanthi equivalent of the Roman/Byzantine Greens & Blues chariot racing teams/ hooligan gangs/political parties

14 hours ago, David Scott said:

Perhaps that’s the secret, Varnaval is not going to be a major cult, so a small one with several rune lords each riding flying ram chariots. 

Saren can likely fly too, carrying Elmal across the sky. 

Do chariots being aerial platforms help?

Lokamaydon rode that huge lightning ram god, and he's probably not the only Orlanthi with a flying mount, so it doesn't seem without precedent. Plus, it would be pretty damn cool.

10 hours ago, Leingod said:

In which case, I feel like he might catch on with Orlanthi who are migratory and pastoral rather than tied to agriculture and settling down in villages and towns (and who are warlike raiders on top of that), something I bet at least a few Orlanthi will take to during the Hero Wars. A bunch of tattooed raiders riding in on horse-sized rams, their nobles and leaders flying around in chariots, raining death on their enemies below? Sounds like a worthy addition to the setting IMO.

Might catch on with the Charg, maybe? In addition to their overall Urox fanaticism.

[Joerg]

Quite often in such world-changing heroquests there are a few other groups questing for a similar goal and also achieving that outcome - how many parties were involved with the Sunstop? Are we sure that it is the choice of the Red Cow questers, or is their choice also influenced by what some other questers do? Who else would have done something to affect Orlanth's Ring (or however they call that formation in their part of the world)?

[Pentallion]

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Not really: they are a bigger target than someone flying by themselves or on a mount... About the only advantage they'd have would be the capability to carry more quivers of javelins.

You forget the armoring enchantments cast upon the chariot which protect the rider, making him harder to hit, especially from below.

[Sir_Godspeed]

There's also the "combat-transport" usefulness for flying chariots. Let's for example say that they can transport two or three warriors in addition to the charioteer, and put them at a place where they can ambush enemies or the likes, or exploit a weakness, or even night raids. Might be a distinct role beside the flyers the Orlanthi already have.

[M Helsdon]

20 hours ago, Pentallion said:

You forget the armoring enchantments cast upon the chariot which protect the rider, making him harder to hit, especially from below.

You'd need them on the animals pulling it as well... Otherwise... 'Engines hit, I'm going down....'

[Leingod]

I've recently learned that the Andam Horde and their ordeed steeds are present in Six Ages, though I've never gotten this event.

[M Helsdon]

18 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I've recently learned that the Andam Horde and their ordeed steeds are present in Six Ages, though I've never gotten this event.

Interestingly there are two distinct chariot designs there, one better suited to use on more difficult terrain than the other.