BRP Supers games

[MrJealousy]

Oh give it time.

This is definately something which needs to be expanded upon.

[pulpcitizen]

Oh, I definitely think they'd look at a solid Supers pitch as a monograph - the advantage of the monograph format for Chaosium is that it is relatively low risk. In fact, I'm slightly surprised that of all the stuff we know about that's in the queue at Chaosium there isn't anything that's clearly supers related that we know of.

Cheers,

Nick

It is funny you should say that...

PM sent. :thumb:

[Atgxtg]

I went ahead and converted Colossus, Doctor Doom and Hulk from Marvel Super Heroes to BRP. No issues (except for the STR score...which for Hulk is 447 (the square root of 100 tons IF strength x strength = pounds).

Ditching the Resistance Table (heresy!)...the conversion works fairly well.

-STS

STR^2= lbs? IS that from somehwere or did you wing it?

I suspect that it would throw the SIZ values for Battleships and other vehicles way out of whack. What is 100 tons on the SIZ table? That would probably be the best "ballpark" figure to start with.

[Atgxtg]

But why Chaosium don't write an update of Superworld, with all the rules for boosting the heroe's characteristics over superhuman potential and power updated to the 21st century flavor?

Well, Superworld has been an "orphan" game for over 2 years. I think Chaosium probably needs to get itself reestablished among mainstream gamers again with something like BRP before they start going after the submarkets.

A new version of Superworld, as a BRP supplement, might not be a bad idea for Chaosium or a third party publisher some time in the future.

One thing about BRP is that it has put certain rules together that did not go together in the past, and will probably need some looking over before including them in a campaign. For instance, Superstats and skill category modfiers have never been included in the same system before. Someone buying 30 points or so of DEX is going to introduce several previously unexplored difficulties-such a a bunch of very have starting skill scores.

So anyone looking to do a updated Superworld is going to have to look over all the options available, new SIZ table, etc. and try to figure out the ramifications of the way things work now before doing and tweaking for Supers.

[Nightshade]

[quote=Atgxtg;18483

One thing about BRP is that it has put certain rules together that did not go together in the past, and will probably need some looking over before including them in a campaign. For instance, Superstats and skill category modfiers have never been included in the same system before. Someone buying 30 points or so of DEX is going to introduce several previously unexplored difficulties-such a a bunch of very have starting skill scores.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah. The contribution of attributes to skills in Superworld 2 was pretty limited, and next to nonexistant when it came to combat skills. As I've noted, you also really need to reexamine certain aspects of the BRP powers system and the damage/hit point mechanics if you want anything that resembles a general superheroes usable book.

Well, you and I (among others) kinda went over all this last year when I was working on my vehicle design stuff. Basically if a hero can lift a tank, he has to have a certain minimin STR score, and this, with SIZ will deterine his damage bonus, and affect certain skill percentages.

I think one reason why armor values are as low as they are for tanks and battleships is so that characters who can lift a SIZ 90 tank can actually manbage to damage one with a 7d6 damage bonus.

I think that is why Jason went with the low AP high hit point model. Otherwise the lifting capacity (non linear progression) quickly outstrips the damage capacity (+1d6 db per 16 points). This isn't a problem for most settings, but can be a pain for superheroes.

[Nightshade]

Well, you and I (among others) kinda went over all this last year when I was working on my vehicle design stuff. Basically if a hero can lift a tank, he has to have a certain minimin STR score, and this, with SIZ will deterine his damage bonus, and affect certain skill percentages.

I think one reason why armor values are as low as they are for tanks and battleships is so that characters who can lift a SIZ 90 tank can actually manbage to damage one with a 7d6 damage bonus.

I think that is why Jason went with the low AP high hit point model. Otherwise the lifting capacity (non linear progression) quickly outstrips the damage capacity (+1d6 db per 16 points). This isn't a problem for most settings, but can be a pain for superheroes.

That wasn't really what I was talking about (though the Strength issue is somewhat of one, but don't all the skills Strength contribute to top out that contribution, or am I flashing back to RQ3?).

The problems with the current BRP for supers on damage are two-fold:

1. Its too lethal. Most damage effects in the comics are relatively transitory; you occasionally see someone who's gotten really badly beaten and carries around damage for a while, but even in Iron Age style books that's not that common. And its much easier generally to knock someone out than kill them (at least among supers), again, even usually in fairly gritty books. The standard BRP hit point model does this pretty poorly, and does it worse as damage increases; you'll go from functional to dead with a pretty narrow window of unconsciousness in there, and when you do go down, it'll take a long time to heal.

2. Jason made some decisions about the Protection power that I don't think serve the genre well (I'm not convinced they necessary serve any likely use of the powers system well, but its particularly bad here). When Steve Perrin broke down defenses there were only three cases: Kinetic (including fire and ice attacks, and things like vibrational and sonic attacks), electrical (including magnetic energy), and radiation (pretty much everything else). Jason subdivided much more finely, while still leaving the cost high. Now as you say, this makes it more likely to be able to get some damage in, but it has the side effect that its actually prohibitively expensive to be even halfway protected against the majority of of attackers in a supers game; as noted, his examplar character derived from the old Superworld game would have no protection against a heat ray. That's just a nonstarter in a typical superhero game, and the cost of hit points is high enough it doesn't make up the difference.

[Atgxtg]

That wasn't really what I was talking about (though the Strength issue is somewhat of one, but don't all the skills Strength contribute to top out that contribution, or am I flashing back to RQ3?).

In RQ3 secondary stats capped out the bonus at +10%. I think this was becuase Dinosaurs and other big creatures in RQ2 and Stormbringer ended up with insame base attack pecentages due to Strength. Flipping through the attack chances for dinosaurs in Gateway Bestiary reveals the problem.

As for the two problems, yeah, your right, IMO anyway. The combined effect of the two problems is that all heroes are very vulnerable to one or more types of attack, and will probably be killed outright when running into a foe with that power. For instance, a laser could burn holes right through the Hulk, not something you'd ever seen in the comics.

What might work would be to allow character some sort of default protection from other forms of armor. For instance, while a tank might have armor designed to stop kinetic attacks,just the general thickness/mass would provide some protection against lasers. Maybe 1/4th value?

[RosenMcStern]

What might work would be to allow character some sort of default protection from other forms of armor. For instance, while a tank might have armor designed to stop kinetic attacks,just the general thickness/mass would provide some protection against lasers. Maybe 1/4th value?

A tank is protected with its full 24 points against a laser. At most, you can adopt the optional rule used for body armor (half value against energy weapons if not specifically designed to stop them). I think that the effectiveness against only one type of damage is valid only for "armor" bought as a power, not for actual body armor. Which makes sense in most cases.

The body armor assigned to, say, the Hulk, represents the extreme hardness of his muscular mass, which will stop any kinetik attack. Its effect should be lessened against energy weapons, though. As for the fact that you will not see the Hulk damaged by lasers in the comics, the point is that he should be given some energy/radiation armor, too, possibly given by his gamma-ray saturated body. But there are two different "reasons why" here, so it is correct that there are two different powers to buy.

That said, I am in favour of introducing a (very costly) power called toughness that simply lets you ignore the first X points of damage from any source.

[pulpcitizen]

...2. Jason made some decisions about the Protection power that I don't think serve the genre well (I'm not convinced they necessary serve any likely use of the powers system well, but its particularly bad here). When Steve Perrin broke down defenses there were only three cases: Kinetic (including fire and ice attacks, and things like vibrational and sonic attacks), electrical (including magnetic energy), and radiation (pretty much everything else). Jason subdivided much more finely, while still leaving the cost high. Now as you say, this makes it more likely to be able to get some damage in, but it has the side effect that its actually prohibitively expensive to be even halfway protected against the majority of of attackers in a supers game; as noted, his examplar character derived from the old Superworld game would have no protection against a heat ray. That's just a nonstarter in a typical superhero game, and the cost of hit points is high enough it doesn't make up the difference.

I have been thinking about this for a couple of weeks now myself, for other reasons. In some ways the current system makes sense: a specific defense is far cheaper than a specific attack in terms of matching capability. It is the moment a character wants to be resistant to two or more energy types equally that it becomes prohibitively costly as you note.

What about rewriting Armour as-is, by building on the old Superworld classifications? Have 1 character point buying 1 point of armour against one (with the option to buy the power multiple times, as can be done now) of the classifications of:

Kinetic - kinetic, sound, vibration, wind, gravity

Electromagnetic - electric, magnetic

Radiation - heat, light, radiation

Entropic (?) cold, darkness

Making the armour specific against only one energy type from within a classification (eg light) then maybe that could double points of armour for the CP cost; choosing the force field option could simply double the armour points gained. It is a simple approach that could be applied to other protective abilities - basically maintaining the current cost structures but adding breadth to the purchased ability.

I have added an extra clasification here over the old superworld 3, but I feel it is something that makes some sense.

Yes Kinetic is the 'best' category for breadth, but it isn't the only useful one. It also keeps some of the variety advocated by RosenMcStern when using the Hulk example which I agree with.

Thoughts?

Edited December 5, 2008 by leonmallett

[Nightshade]

In RQ3 secondary stats capped out the bonus at +10%. I think this was becuase Dinosaurs and other big creatures in RQ2 and Stormbringer ended up with insame base attack pecentages due to Strength. Flipping through the attack chances for dinosaurs in Gateway Bestiary reveals the problem.

Isn't that just as much a problem with current BRP, and doesn't the same capping exist, or am I misrembering? (I suppose I could just go find where my book has gotten buried in the last few weeks, but I'm lazy...)

As for the two problems, yeah, your right, IMO anyway. The combined effect of the two problems is that all heroes are very vulnerable to one or more types of attack, and will probably be killed outright when running into a foe with that power. For instance, a laser could burn holes right through the Hulk, not something you'd ever seen in the comics.

Yeah.

What might work would be to allow character some sort of default protection from other forms of armor. For instance, while a tank might have armor designed to stop kinetic attacks,just the general thickness/mass would provide some protection against lasers. Maybe 1/4th value?

The problem is that because of the overly individual nature of the categories (and the fact they don't seem exaustive from a quick reading) its still easy to be way too damn vulnerable.

[Nightshade]

I have been thinking about this for a couple of weeks now myself, for other reasons. In some ways the current system makes sense: a specific defense is far cheaper than a specific attack in terms of matching capability. It is the moment a character wants to be resistant to two or more energy types equally that it becomes prohibitively costly as you note.

What about rewriting Armour as-is, by building on the old Superworld classifications? Have 1 character point buying 1 point of armour against one (with the option to buy the power multiple times, as can be done now) of the classifications of:

Kinetic - kinetic, sound, vibration, wind, gravity

Electromagnetic - electric, magnetic

Radiation - heat, light, radiation

Entropic (?) cold, darkness

Making the armour specific against only one energy type from within a classification (eg light) then maybe that could double points of armour for the CP cost; choosing the force field option could simply double the armour points gained. It is a simple approach that could be applied to other protective abilities - basically maintaining the current cost structures but adding breadth to the purchased ability.

I have added an extra clasification here over the old superworld 3, but I feel it is something that makes some sense.

Yes Kinetic is the 'best' category for breadth, but it isn't the only useful one. It also keeps some of the variety advocated by RosenMcStern when using the Hulk example which I agree with.

Thoughts?

Well, honestly, I'd just go back to the original three; the only reason you need your entropic category is if you think heat or energy flow out is different to be protected against than in, and it usually doesn't seem to be in the comics (there are exceptions, but then, if there's one thing that needs a flaws system its a supers setting...)

You also might need to rejigger the costs, but then, I'm not sure but that you might want to rejigger the costs for a supers setting anyway.

[pulpcitizen]

Well, honestly, I'd just go back to the original three; the only reason you need your entropic category is if you think heat or energy flow out is different to be protected against than in, and it usually doesn't seem to be in the comics (there are exceptions, but then, if there's one thing that needs a flaws system its a supers setting...)

You also might need to rejigger the costs, but then, I'm not sure but that you might want to rejigger the costs for a supers setting anyway.

If reduced back to 3 classifications (move cold to radiation/radiant, maybe darkness as well, but that seems the 'iffy' one) but keeping the costings as suggested, then 3 points of defense against all would be 9 pts versus 10 pts for a typical EP attack, so arguably the costing would be near to acceptable then I would think. Basically for slightly less than the cost roughly 50% of the maximum damage would be prevented.

[pulpcitizen]

Slight digression, but I have had a BRP supers monograph proposal accepted and I am hoping to get a sub-forum set up, which I can do with enough players signed up (just a small handful needed). If you think you can help here is the link.

Thanks.