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Whatever Happened to the Cradle Baby?

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16 hours ago, David Weihe said:

Genert and Tada -style giants were the male Earth gods (like Pamalt).  Their human-like forms were only because that was how their worshipers saw them, when they weren't being the entire continent or the Garden.  An order of magnitude greater than mere Mountain (aka, Cradle) Giants, who were orders of magnitude greater than the kinds of giants that our adventurers kill.

Genert had many devolved parts, Tada was a part of Genert but separate, he was the fertility of the god. Mountains are clearly the children of the earth, that were once giants who sat down then never moved. We need to move away from the notion that Genert and Tada were giants, they were big from a view point, but giant is used to describe huge as well as big mythological beings. To children, most adults are giants. This is also complicated with bilocation (as Joseph Cambell said somewhere, is a mark of being a god). Genert is at the same time the land of his garden and a distinct being (only at the end of the Green Age). Mobile lumps of earth are likely giant, but not all are giants. Likewise Tada is Tadaland and the randy fertility god sleeping with many earth goddesses. Lying adjacent to Genert, he is also part of him.

Western mythology likely has the answer to some of this.

The baby giant is likely a granddaughter of genert. I think she's taken since the Dawn to gestate and is now coming down the birth canal of the zola fel as the most prepared of all the giant babies. As there's a link between Zola Fel and the giants, I think it's likely the baby is developing in some deep watery earthy place ready to appear at some appropriate time in the hero wars as a demigoddess avatar of the earth. She could also become the new land goddess for the wastes, which I believe is very likely. There's a Paps HeroQuest in which this is the outcome IMO.

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Genert had many devolved parts, Tada was a part of Genert but separate, he was the fertility of the god. Mountains are clearly the children of the earth, that were once giants who sat down then never moved. We need to move away from the notion that Genert and Tada were giants, they were big from a view point, but giant is used to describe huge as well as big mythological beings. To children, most adults are giants. This is also complicated with bilocation (as Joseph Cambell said somewhere, is a mark of being a god). Genert is at the same time the land of his garden and a distinct being (only at the end of the Green Age). Mobile lumps of earth are likely giant, but not all are giants. Likewise Tada is Tadaland and the randy fertility god sleeping with many earth goddesses. Lying adjacent to Genert, he is also part of him.

Western mythology likely has the answer to some of this.

The baby giant is likely a granddaughter of genert. I think she's taken since the Dawn to gestate and is now coming down the birth canal of the zola fel as the most prepared of all the giant babies. As there's a link between Zola Fel and the giants, I think it's likely the baby is developing in some deep watery earthy place ready to appear at some appropriate time in the hero wars as a demigoddess avatar of the earth. She could also become the new land goddess for the wastes, which I believe is very likely. There's a Paps HeroQuest in which this is the outcome IMO.

Well, not to harp on the same thing again - but it's my impression that the term "giant" is a rather generic term used for pretty much anything that's very, very large in size.

When talking about the Cradle River Giants, Gonn Orta, the Quivini Giants and so on, one might be tempted to use the term "Mountain Giants" or even something more specific, I'm not sure. Certainly they are separate beings from the "giant" Bomonoi, Luathelans, the Mostali creations I forget at the moment, and so on. There are also a number of gods who may or may not have been gigantic whenever they felt like it, or even habitually (If Genert counts as one, does Kero Fin?). And I've always had a tough time figuring out the "Mountain Giants'" (sic) relation to the Primal Earth in general. Are they further devolved parts of the Primal Earth, or are they something else more particular?

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5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, not to harp on the same thing again - but it's my impression that the term "giant" is a rather generic term used for pretty much anything that's very, very large in size.

"All of the Gloranthan Council appeared to be giants whenever they came out of the mountain."

Mountains are children of Larnste. Issaries is a child of Larnste. Is Issaries a giant?

We know Issaries is the god of a few giants and that his geas is to put the hyenas back together. If one of those giants is another piece of Genert, what is Issaries?

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2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

"All of the Gloranthan Council appeared to be giants whenever they came out of the mountain."

Mountains are children of Larnste. Issaries is a child of Larnste. Is Issaries a giant?

We know Issaries is the god of a few giants and that his geas is to put the hyenas back together. If one of those giants is another piece of Genert, what is Issaries?

Before people had beasts for riding or carrying things, the people with the longest stride and who could carry the most things would all have been Giants...

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Sure, there are several races of Giants.

  • Gonn Orta's lot are True Giants, in my Glorantha. They grow to hundreds of metres in size.
  • Lesser Giants are the ones who only grow to around 16m.
  • Jolanti are Stone Giants made by Mostali.
  • Grey Giants are from Pamaltela, if I remember correctly.

Only Gonn Orta's Giants send Cradles down the Zola Fel. These are the ones who had a war with True Dragons deep in the depths of God Time.

 

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On 10/20/2018 at 12:28 AM, soltakss said:

Only Gonn Orta's Giants send Cradles down the Zola Fel. These are the ones who had a war with True Dragons deep in the depths of God Time.

Many of the great gods and great spirits are called giants by their worshippers, in particular the Animal Nomads of Prax. It is possible that the war was between one of these groups of ‘giants’ and the dragons.

Edited by Charles

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Since we're in this thread already, what's the connection between the Cradle itself and the return of the Boat Planet? Is the Ship used for the Shipraising part of the Boat Planet quest the refurbished Cradle (at least symbolically)?

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23 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Since we're in this thread already, what's the connection between the Cradle itself and the return of the Boat Planet? Is the Ship used for the Shipraising part of the Boat Planet quest the refurbished Cradle (at least symbolically)?

Not according to Gathering Thunder, I'm not going post spoilers as it's all in here:

https://www.chaosium.com/gathering-thunder/

The ship is also named in the Guide and the Glorantha Sourcebook

The PDF is cheap. @Ian Cooper may be able to add some other info.

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6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The PDF is cheap. 

Have it in print, just not with me. 🙂 And I'm certain I've seen people mention a connection between the Cradle and the raising of the Boat Planet, although not necessarily canonically so.

Edited by Akhôrahil

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In our recent Gloranthan campaign, the Boat Planet was a True Dragonship, a Dragonship made from a True Dragon, so was several miles long. That is probably non-canonical, but our players were awed by it. 

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8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

what's the connection between the Cradle itself and the return of the Boat Planet? Is the Ship used for the Shipraising part of the Boat Planet quest the refurbished Cradle (at least symbolically)?

I don't think I've seen any explicit connection between the two but perhaps the Cradle's crossing of the Black Sea maps the path that the Boat Planet subsequently takes when it returns to the Underworld.

The ritual that has been connected to the rise of the Boat Planet (and the end of the Closing) is Harrek's circumnavigation of the oceans.

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8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The ritual that has been connected to the rise of the Boat Planet (and the end of the Closing) is Harrek's circumnavigation of the oceans.

Which is somewhat surprising when you look at Hoom Jhis with three circumnavigations to his credit (Guide p.600).

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9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think I've seen any explicit connection between the two but perhaps the Cradle's crossing of the Black Sea maps the path that the Boat Planet subsequently takes when it returns to the Underworld.

The ritual that has been connected to the rise of the Boat Planet (and the end of the Closing) is Harrek's circumnavigation of the oceans.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Which is somewhat surprising when you look at Hoom Jhis with three circumnavigations to his credit (Guide p.600).

The rise of the Boat Planet is stated (in Gathering Thunder, if I recall) to be the result of multiple quests, across multiple cultures. Likely Harreck, Hoom Jhis, the Cradle, and many more, contributed.

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55 minutes ago, Charles said:

The rise of the Boat Planet is stated (in Gathering Thunder, if I recall) to be the result of multiple quests, across multiple cultures.

Also in the Guide, p. 649.

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Harrek's circumnavigation is special only in its coincidental timing. It is possible that Argrath starting his circumnavigation from the Cradle makes it special.

I used to think that the rise of the boat planet was the somewhat delayed end of Dormal's quest. Dormal was last seen sailing west from Whalebone Island, possibly to (through?) the Gates of Dusk or down the lower Sky Dome into the Underworld. Given Dormal's interaction with Fronela, the release of Charg and other parts from the Ban might be contributing. (Parts of the Janube outflow from the Sweet Sea and the southern Sweet Sea shore may have needed to be liberated, and possibly the other half of the Esel River.)

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On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 5:39 AM, Joerg said:

I used to think that the rise of the boat planet was the somewhat delayed end of Dormal's quest.

Yes, that should be connected as well.

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On 10/25/2018 at 10:39 AM, Joerg said:

I used to think that the rise of the boat planet was the somewhat delayed end of Dormal's quest. Dormal was last seen sailing west from Whalebone Island, possibly to (through?) the Gates of Dusk or down the lower Sky Dome into the Underworld. Given Dormal's interaction with Fronela, the release of Charg and other parts from the Ban might be contributing. (Parts of the Janube outflow from the Sweet Sea and the southern Sweet Sea shore may have needed to be liberated, and possibly the other half of the Esel River.)

Well, Dormal is the Helmsman on the Boat Planet, so it is the culmination of his last HeroQuest.

As the Closing was brought about, to an extent, by the bringing down of the Boat Planet, it is fitting that Dormal, who caused the Partial Opening, is part of bringing it back. Whether the presence of Dormal causes the Full Opening, i.e. the Opening without the need for Dormal's magic, or that is the reappearance of the Boat Planet, is a matter of discussion for Dormal Priests trying to prove their God is still relevant.

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Yes, what happens to the Cult of Dormal following the return of the Boat Planet? Its one reason for existing used to be to provide the Opening ritual, but that quickly becomes meaningless (although you have to wonder who the first person to try to go at it with the Opening ritual after all this time is...). Does it try to reinvent itself? Coast on its existing status? Heroquest for new nautical powers to stay relevant? Whither away?

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Every time I see the thread title "Whatever Happened to the Cradle Baby?", I can't help but think of a cross between "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" and "Rosemary's Baby".  Nothing like a good horror/psychological thriller for the residents of Pavis (or perhaps Corflu?).

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50 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Does it try to reinvent itself? Coast on its existing status? Heroquest for new nautical powers to stay relevant? Whither away?

I'd say that some in the cult start to get horrible visions and nightmares of a Great Flood that will wash away mankind.  Dragonships returning upon gigantic tides with monstrous sea creatures such as the kraken at their side.  And these folk will pray to Dormal and he will reveal the plans for a great Ark that will save them.  These folk try to reinvent the cult and quest for the tools to build and populate their Ark. 

But most priests of Dormal, the captains of the great mercantile ships, scoff at such and ply their trade in their ongoing quest for wealth and fame now that the Boat Planet is back to guide them.  They probably seek to gain greater nautical skills by leveraging their Celestial Lore, aided by the Boat Planet, and find short cuts across the seas or through the Doldrums.

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On 10/18/2018 at 3:53 AM, scott-martin said:

We know Issaries is the god of a few giants and that his geas is to put the hyenas back together. If one of those giants is another piece of Genert, what is Issaries?

Golden Tongue?

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On 10/24/2018 at 4:05 PM, David Scott said:

Not according to Gathering Thunder, I'm not going post spoilers as it's all in here:

https://www.chaosium.com/gathering-thunder/

The ship is also named in the Guide and the Glorantha Sourcebook

The PDF is cheap. @Ian Cooper may be able to add some other info.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 3:35 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Since we're in this thread already, what's the connection between the Cradle itself and the return of the Boat Planet? Is the Ship used for the Shipraising part of the Boat Planet quest the refurbished Cradle (at least symbolically)?

Well, I do have a new version of the Sky Ship for a new HeroQuest supplement (the book will also include the Dragonrise). My goal is to explain The Closing, and part of that is the connection between The Cradle, the giant baby and the Boat Planet. My hint would be that it is not that the cradle itself is connected to the boat planet, but that the crew of the cradle are connected to the crew of the Boat Planet (I think this is hinted at strongly in the original).

Both have a mythic resonance with Anaxial's Ark, of course.

I don't want to say too much, partially because I have to persuade @Jeff that I am right. But I will work on that.

 

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It wasn't really Harrek's circumnavigation, it was Argrath who was circling the ocean like an air rune, starting off with the Cradle.  So the Cradle is definitely a big part of the Opening.  Plus, it doesn't say ANYWHERE in the Cradle adventure that Dormal's opening ritual is used.  That fact right there says the the Opening began with the Cradle.

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