Tell me of Sheng Seleris

[scott-martin]

17 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Everyone assumes Ernalsar was a man. Regardless, the root-word in his parent's name is Ernal[da].

To everything, turn turn turn. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

Hard to speculate about Theyalan, but it the root "Ernal" could be gender-neutral, and you might have "-ar" as a masculine suffix and "-da" as a feminine one. Purely speculation. "-(s)ar" might also mean something along the lines of "devoted to" or "beloved of", which are other kinds of name-specifiers we find a lot in the RW.

[jeffjerwin]

30 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Hard to speculate about Theyalan, but it the root "Ernal" could be gender-neutral, and you might have "-ar" as a masculine suffix and "-da" as a feminine one. Purely speculation. "-(s)ar" might also mean something along the lines of "devoted to" or "beloved of", which are other kinds of name-specifiers we find a lot in the RW.

Actually, Hara means 'devoted/beloved'. 'Sar' is obviously the first element in Sartar's own name. We know that female names can end in -r - well, see Kallyr (and -rid, as in Insterid) - both of these being vingans. -a is usually female. However Ernal- only appears in female names or obvious references to Ernalda, such as the Ernaldori. Compare Ernalsulva, Hofstaring's daughter.

Given that we are never given Sartar's pedigree, unlike, say, Harmast, Hendrik, or Heort. I propose he may be the son of an Ernalda priestess (or a vingan to explain the absence of the -a?) born from a sacred rite (or a casual encounter for the vingan), without a named father.

Edited October 11, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Sartar Ernalsarsson.

Everyone assumes Ernalsar was a man. Regardless, the root-word in his parent's name is Ernal[da].

That's because the -ar or -or suffix indicates male names. Heracles sure isn't named after his father, Zeus, either. And in Roman Catholic Germany "Maria" is a common second or third name for males, invoking the name magic of the mother goddess.

 

5 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

'Sar' is obviously the first element in Sartar's own name.

Yes, it appears to be a dynastic element for the first-born son - Saronil, Sarotar, Jarosar, Terasarin, although this breaks down with the children of Jarosar and Terasarin.

5 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

We know that female names can end in -r - well, see Kallyr (and -rid, as in Insterid) - both of these being vingans.

Kallyr appears to be the female form of Kallai. -yr is also a male suffix, as in Anatyr.

Kallyr might have started out as Kallyra, dropping the female suffix upon Vingan initiation?

 

5 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

-a is usually female. However Ernal- only appears in female names or obvious references to Ernalda, such as the Ernaldori. Compare Ernalsulva, Hofstaring's daughter.

The Ernaldori actually may be another pointer to a male name using Ernald- as a component.

I wonder whether the arn- in Arnbord also stems from Ernalda.

5 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Given that we are never given Sartar's pedigree, unlike, say, Harmast, Hendrik, or Heort. I propose he may be the son of an Ernalda priestess born from a sacred rite, without a named father.

Few among the Larnsti in History of the Heortling Peoples have such lineages, and we don't have any information about Arim's or Illaro's ancestry.

[jeffjerwin]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Kallyr might have started out as Kallyra, dropping the female suffix upon Vingan initiation?

The Ernaldori actually may be another pointer to a male name using Ernald- as a component.

Yeah, see my edited suggestion of a Vingan mother. *Ernalsar[a].

The Ernaldori name derives directly from Ernalda: 'Because the goddess's temple was on their tula, the clan took the name Ernaldori.' (see Jeff Richards at http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/heroquest-rpg/2005.09/28609.html) Thus the -ori suffix is 'of or appertaining to'... Given that -or- is here referring to a very female figure, it doesn't really indicate gender. I'm aware of Hercules/Herakles, but I'd hold out for a specifically Theyalan example to be convinced. There are lots of men with suffixes like 'Elmal-' but I can't find any women with that suffix, for the converse.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

we are never given Sartar's pedigree

"The dew of dusk and the thew of an angel" may be deliberately abstract. Archaic references give him the epithet "of Bullshill," wherever that is. 

Could be more formally  "Sora-na-Tor" depending on how our hobby languages shift vowels. 

[jeffjerwin]

51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

we don't have any information about Arim's or Illaro's ancestry.

Arim was a Stravuli with an apparently known descent from him, so not - despite being a 'Pauper' a nobody or 'adopted clansman'. Illaro was a tribal king (Hendarli), so his ancestry is simply not detailed as yet.

Sartar, however, was the founder of the dominant dynasty in the center of the most detailed part of Glorantha. Generally, you'd expect a list of ancestors, but all we know is a parent and a clan (Orshanti). Both are obscure. He is in fact mainly known as 'Sartar' or 'Sartar of Bullhill'. Bullhill suggests an area under Styrman influence, which could also mean unknown patrilineal descent, given their attitude towards sex. All this is pretty hypothetical. However, I believe the main point was the ascendency of the Earth rune, and though Sartar is unusual - being a man - in the list, his ancestry hints at some connection to Earth as well (Ernal-). 

[jeffjerwin]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

"The dew of dusk and the thew of an angel" may be deliberately abstract. Archaic references give him the epithet "of Bullshill," wherever that is. 

Could be more formally  "Sora-na-Tor" depending on how our hobby languages shift vowels. 

Well, Illaro was her consort, so she's actually manifest in c.1455.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Arim was a Stravuli with an apparently known descent from him, so not - despite being a 'Pauper' a nobody or 'adopted clansman'. Illaro was a tribal king (Hendarli), so his ancestry is simply not detailed as yet.

Sartar, however, was the founder of the dominant dynasty in the center of the most detailed part of Glorantha. Generally, you'd expect a list of ancestors, but all we know is a parent and a clan (Orshanti). Both are obscure. He is in fact mainly known as 'Sartar' or 'Sartar of Bullhill'. Bullhill suggests an area under Styrman influence, which could also mean unknown patrilineal descent, given their attitude towards sex. All this is pretty hypothetical. However, I believe the main point was the ascendency of the Earth rune, and though Sartar is unusual - being a man - in the list, his ancestry hints at some connection to Earth as well (Ernal-). 

Sorry, but Illaro is the founder of the current Tarshite dynasty - Hon-eel used the lineage of Illaro to put her son on that throne. His great-grandson was seduced by Hon-eel, and three generations further Moirades was seduced/liberated by Jar-eel, fathering a future Red Emperor. This makes Illaro the founder of the (other) dominant dynasty in the most detailed part of Glorantha.

[jeffjerwin]

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sorry, but Illaro is the founder of the current Tarshite dynasty - Hon-eel used the lineage of Illaro to put her son on that throne. His great-grandson was seduced by Hon-eel, and three generations further Moirades was seduced/liberated by Jar-eel, fathering a future Red Emperor. This makes Illaro the founder of the (other) dominant dynasty in the most detailed part of Glorantha.

The Hendarli are probably identical to the Hendart, so they have a fair bit more written about them (if you include the Unspoken Word stuff, a lot more) than we ever hear of Ernalsar or the Orshanti. Illaro was their king, not a random adventurer.

Hon-eel is well documented of course.

Anyway, Sartar is very much like a player character who comes from a nondescript background and 'wins' a RQ campaign. Every basis of his subsequent power is based not on descent but his own deeds, and his lack of pedigree serves him well because he doesn't have a conflict of interest - he can solve feuds more easily than the Colymar, who were the most powerful tribe in 1470s Sartar but had a distinct problem with peacemaking.

 

Edit: anyway, Illaro is an Earth-goddess champion, so he fits with the 'Earth Rising' motif. While Sartar seems out of place, his parent's name hints otherwise. His action as a champion of Harmony as a path to kingdom making is Ernalda's 'There is Always Another Way' in practice. He seems to be a pacifist in fact! Though his bodyguard were Humakti... or Telmori.

Edited October 11, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Hendarli are probably identical to the Hendart, so they have a fair bit more written about them (if you include the Unspoken Word stuff, a lot more) than we ever hear of Ernalsar or the Orshanti. Illaro was their king, not a random adventurer.

But who is to say whether he "inherited" that office from a lineage of thanes, or whether he was a powerful quester who made himself the better option than all those rich heirs?

Sartar did not start with a tribe as his power base, but with a city confederation (Wilmskirk).

 

1 minute ago, jeffjerwin said:

Anyway, Sartar is very much like a player character who comes from a nondescript background and 'wins' a RQ campaign. Every basis of his subsequent power is based not on descent but his own deeds, and his lack of pedigree serves him well because he doesn't have a conflict of interest - he can solve feuds more easily than the Colymar, who were the most powerful tribe in 1470s Sartar but had a distinct problem with peacemaking.

Illaro had an even greater problem because all of post-Twin Dynasty Tarsh was at civil war. The local conflicts resolved by Sartar (as a neutral party in Wilmskirk, as a combatant in Jonstown, and invited in Swenstown) were of much lower scale.

[jeffjerwin]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Illaro had an even greater problem because all of post-Twin Dynasty Tarsh was at civil war. The local conflicts resolved by Sartar (as a neutral party in Wilmskirk, as a combatant in Jonstown, and invited in Swenstown) were of much lower scale.

I don't disagree. However, the methods Illaro used - conquest and amassing sovereignty magic - backfired, or had inconvenient consequences, over the next 150 years. The Sartar dynasty, despite the Lunar period, established a state model that depended more on justice and peacemaking (or the reputation thereof) - a novel and I think successful way to get around the whole problem of entanglement in the designs and troubles of one's clan and tribe - the pitfall of almost every Orlanthi state, including Tarsh.

Illaro did have a notable failure: he failed to conquer the Quivini or convince them to submit.

The Hendarli/Illaro dynasty suffered from a never-solved problem with alternate sources of legitimacy. There was no rival to Sartar's family anywhere near as trusted by the tribes.

In certain ways Sartar more closely resembles Belintar than a traditional Heortling king.

[Joerg]

Getting back to the Seleric empire:

On 10/9/2018 at 5:43 PM, jeffjerwin said:

Note this from the Redline History: 'The citizens of the city were sent away and the Emperor began a game of ravenkaaz with the bastard child of the Blue Moon, patiently awaiting the arrival of the barbarians. The Blue Moon Daughter found that she was losing in her game with the Emperor and enlisted the aid of Aronius Jaranthir to finish it for her. The Emperor could have easily completed his win over his old friend, but instead he conceded the game and granted this prince of the Citizen Foreigners special rights and privileges for his victory.'

This is of course a ploy to maintain the local resistance against the horse warlords, with the board game just the socially acceptable front that would keep the few steadfast Dara Happan Lunars from abandoning the case against Sheng.

On 10/9/2018 at 5:43 PM, jeffjerwin said:

The Bastard Child/Blue Moon Daughter is Great Sister, who seems to testing or opposing the claims of the 'Doblian' emperor. She may have tried to become Empress. Jaranthir (and Carmania?) is her ally.

I missed this earlier. What makes you think that Great Sister is tied to any moon but the red one in the sky?

Given the location, that female individual might have been a denizen of Castle Blue.

 

 

[jeffjerwin]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I missed this earlier. What makes you think that Great Sister is tied to any moon but the red one in the sky?

Given the location, that female individual might have been a denizen of Castle Blue.

"Deneskerva the Great Sister is the demi-god daughter of the Red Goddess. Some say She was born when the island of Mernita rose during the Great Flood. Others say She was born when She emerged from the Cavern of Flowers in Darsen in the Zero Wane and was at the Goddess’ side during the battle of Castle of Blue. Great Sister was there when her twin Takenegi the Red Emperor was first revealed by the Goddess. Like Takenegi, she is thought to have worn several Masks, although she discards them less readily than her twin. The current Mask is thought to be 125 years old."

(...)

"Before, when she was called Verithurusa, Lesilla had founded the land of Mernita, and thousands of her descendants lived in it. Mother Lesilla sat overhead, worshipped by her descendants add simultaneously appearing among them as Queen Cerullia. When the Great Flood destroyed the world, Lesilla drew her land upward, higher than the rushing waters.

Deneskerva was a daughter of Lesilla, who was loved by Lesilla above all others. Lesilla showed Deneskerva the invisible light of Sedenya the Turner that permeates the material world. When Deneskerva’s own twin brother demanded that the people of Mernita reject Sedenya, Deneskerva was given her mother’s mirror and taken to the God Caves in the care of Natha. Because of this, Deneskerva did not die but remained hidden until Our Goddess revealed her again."

(http://www.glorantha.com/docs/deneskerva-the-great-sister/)

The Cavern of Flowers is the Miringite Cave, which is clearly related not only to Natha's Cave in Hell but also to the Cave where Zaytenera/Verithurusa lost her innocence and became a mother: Lesilla, the Blue Moon. That Cave may well be the same as the Cave of the Strange Gods.

Her associations are clearly with the Blue Moon over the Red Moon, though she is obviously also a child of Sedenya by the Third Age. Since the Blue Moon is the Moon of Motherhood, in a sense both of her children are born of the 'Blue Moon'. However, by saying 'bastard daughter of the Blue Moon' the author can sidestep the question of whether she's a rightful Empress.

[soltakss]

On 10/9/2018 at 7:17 AM, jeffjerwin said:

Just realised: the model for the Red Emperor's life as a peasant in Doblian is obviously (in part) the story of Karvanyar, the DH Emperor who defeated the Golden Dragon of the EWF, including the curious importance of playing a board game and the alliance with the Westerners (Carmanians).

To my mind, when that happens, it is likely the result of the second person performing a HeroQuest emulating the first person. The second person definitely gets some of the benefits of doing the same things in the same way, or by overlaying the first myth onto the current reality.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

On 10/9/2018 at 8:17 AM, jeffjerwin said:

Just realised: the model for the Red Emperor's life as a peasant in Doblian is obviously (in part) the story of Karvanyar, the DH Emperor who defeated the Golden Dragon of the EWF, including the curious importance of playing a board game and the alliance with the Westerners (Carmanians).

To my mind, when that happens, it is likely the result of the second person performing a HeroQuest emulating the first person. The second person definitely gets some of the benefits of doing the same things in the same way, or by overlaying the first myth onto the current reality.

Unfortunately, Karvanyar's (or rather Urvanyar's) example cannot be heroquested unless there is a precedent for it in Godtime. And looking at Yelmic orthodoxy, if there was, then not on an imperial level.

 

 

[jeffjerwin]

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Unfortunately, Karvanyar's (or rather Urvanyar's) example cannot be heroquested unless there is a precedent for it in Godtime. And looking at Yelmic orthodoxy, if there was, then not on an imperial level.

 

 

True. Though I mistrust what the Yelmic orthodox say about such things; this may well be a part of folk history, not 'official histories'. "The Poor Widow's Son" is probably a thing, it's just hidden. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the secret was discovered by Karvanyar from the myths of the Little Sun or Lightfore.

After all, Karvanyar is the son of a blinded and maimed father who should be the Emperor.

He doesn't know his heritage, but finds it out. He triumphs over an usurper (in Karvanyar's case, the Sun Dragon) using 'Every Man a Sun' (which is similar to Elmal's discovery 'I am the Sun'). His act at the marriage negotiations with the Dragon's Daughter is to get his father's eyes and heart as a price for the match, then rejecting the marriage.

This is what the Fortunate Succession says about Desdarius:

"Desderius

111,260?

During this time period this relative of Yelmgatha attempted to perform a variant of the "Poor Wife's Son" ritual, replacing the dragon with the Red Emperor. He was caught, and not found guilty of treason. But for Conspiracy, he had other parts taken by the Hungry Goddess besides his heart and eyes."

"Poor Wife's Son' ritual" can hardly be anything but a hero quest, so either it's from the Godtime or it's a Mythic Part of Time - like the Red Moon's Ascension or the Night of Horrors.

Edited October 12, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[soltakss]

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Unfortunately, Karvanyar's (or rather Urvanyar's) example cannot be heroquested unless there is a precedent for it in Godtime. And looking at Yelmic orthodoxy, if there was, then not on an imperial level.

I am now of the opinion that if something made an impression on God Time then it can be the focus of a HeroQuest. There are many examples of events that happened after Time began that had an impact on the God Time and can be used for HeroQuesting. Maybe those events created some God Time event that we are not aware of.

[jeffjerwin]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I am now of the opinion that if something made an impression on God Time then it can be the focus of a HeroQuest. There are many examples of events that happened after Time began that had an impact on the God Time and can be used for HeroQuesting. Maybe those events created some God Time event that we are not aware of.

Yes, I think Karvanyar's quest's outcome, 'Every Man a Sun' is probably somehow related to the emergence of Tharkantus, and Monrogh's 'Many Suns'.

Though not long after Karvanyar, the Yelm priests 'proved' that Yelm was 'not a/every Man' that innovation took hold amongst the proto-Yelmalions. Even Baboons can be the Little Sun.

[scott-martin]

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

 He doesn't know his heritage, but finds it out. He triumphs over an usurper (in Karvanyar's case, the Sun Dragon) using 'Every Man a Sun' (which is similar to Elmal's discovery 'I am the Sun'). His act at the marriage negotiations with the Dragon's Daughter is to get his father's eyes and heart as a price for the match, then rejecting the marriage.

Given the events of the day I just sacrificed myself to myself, sleep deprivation and trading away a perfectly good aisle seat for the middle to bring a few things back. 

For me the Widow's Son story suggests what the Yelm hierarchy does to all who challenge their monopoly on adult masculinity. It's not quite a slave system but most people are far from free to be more than "little" subordinate suns at best. Servants and concubines. If you "want more" they take your parts to nullify the threat.

But the entire shape of the Yelm mythos revolves around how crimes against the fathers are revenged by the sons. Not every time and rarely perfectly balancing the scales, but belittle enough dads and sooner or later the next generation will throw off a kid ornery enough to get payback. Among others, that's Orlanth. When the emperor is a dragon that's Karvanyar. Sometimes it fails and the hierarchy delays the mythic inevitable by beating or coopting the kid. Who knows what Beat-Pot could've become?

When a little sun is kindled it wants to become an adult, a father in its own right. Dara Happa is all about keeping little suns little in order to glorify the eternal emperor sun, all-father. At best you can be a little dad and have a little family. Realistically initiation there doesn't even extend that far. 

Now what's interesting is that there's a little brother too. For a god often characterized as having "tantric" aspects Lodril sure carries a whole lot of castration imagery, his spear constantly getting bent, busted or stolen. Who does this to him? Often darkness gods but not always. Who allows this to happen? Big brother. It's not hard to imagine a strange and secret story the Monster Men tell where Lodril asserts his prerogatives and his own brother slaps him down hard, hamstrings him, boots him from heaven, takes his Light and leaves only Low Fire behind. 

Umath claims his birthright and is pushed. The Fourth Man, the consigliere of heaven, is always content to remain a servant, always the uncle and never the all-father. Or at least that's how he's portrayed. Like Dayzatar. At best all that's left behind are little suns, unfree masculinities. Subordinates.

And then there's Shargash, who is also a "tantric" god with his own rites. If we can point to the Sex Pit on the god learner maps whose city of carnal license would it be? Lodril's? Shagash's? Doomed Zarkos?

Which commandment did Rebellus Terminus most want to break? Covet thy brother's wife? His son like Hamlet gets payback. At a certain point it gets hard to distinguish which ones are "little suns" and which are "storm sons." They're all pissed off youth who want something more than dad's deserts and are willing to fight to get it. They've got nothing to lose. They take different routes to justice. Some are just lethal. Others are just tricky. Others are upstanding. One combines all the best parts within himself and becomes an Orlanth.

A lot of the tribes who remembered the father got shipped off to what is now Umathela. Maybe dad was a noisy spear god, a smith castrated for his presumption, last son of heaven. Maybe he was the first of the storm gods. It's hard to say. He might even have been a talking god, a mountain maker, a soul arranger. One detail that people tend to agree on is that he was in love with the old lady goddess, mother and mother in law. When he was the mountain maker she was the mountain. Dad *has* the spear. Mom *is* the spear.

Also the Wall when properly interpreted is a combinatorial engine like the I Ching that reads the permutations of divine influence. Shuffle the masks of god and play the best possible hand. Be the biggest sun you want to be. Life's too short to work for someone else forever. This applies equally to the boys and girls of Dara Happa, come out of that place.

[jeffjerwin]

Well, every father has to die. The trouble with immortal ones is they don't, so there is no inheritance.

Patriarchs tend to hoard power, wives, daughters. The children have to challenge him to find their place. When Orlanth was among the strange gods, he met the Moon, the rebel daughter of the Sun, driven out of her father's home; a part of her, or a child of her's, Mahaquata, the death-bat, helped Orlanth to kill the Sun...

You know who those two old friends of Orlanth are?

[Joerg]

Out of reacts due to sharing the grief...

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

For me the Widow's Son story suggests what the Yelm hierarchy does to all who challenge their monopoly on adult masculinity. It's not quite a slave system but most people are far from free to be more than "little" subordinate suns at best. Servants and concubines. If you "want more" they take your parts to nullify the threat.

But the entire shape of the Yelm mythos revolves around how crimes against the fathers are revenged by the sons. Not every time and rarely perfectly balancing the scales, but belittle enough dads and sooner or later the next generation will throw off a kid ornery enough to get payback. Among others, that's Orlanth. When the emperor is a dragon that's Karvanyar. Sometimes it fails and the hierarchy delays the mythic inevitable by beating or coopting the kid.

 

From a Yelmic perspective leaving the ability to have a son, or leaving any sons alive, has always been a bad mistake.

The emperor is all-seeing while being cursed with a biased perception. The Widow's Son is the story how the overt deeds of the future hero or, in case of Avivath, the founder of the bloodline of the future leaders, is hiding behind unremarkable menial tasks. And if you look at Orlanth's first three contests, all they do is to establish that storm godling as a buffoon - go play elsewhere, little kid.

 

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Who knows what Beat-Pot could've become?

Having played Beat-pot once in the White Bear Red Moon freeform, there is a chance that he still might find his calling.

 

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

When a little sun is kindled it wants to become an adult, a father in its own right. Dara Happa is all about keeping little suns little in order to glorify the eternal emperor sun, all-father. At best you can be a little dad and have a little family. Realistically initiation there doesn't even extend that far. 

Now what's interesting is that there's a little brother too. For a god often characterized as having "tantric" aspects Lodril sure carries a whole lot of castration imagery, his spear constantly getting bent, busted or stolen. Who does this to him? Often darkness gods but not always. Who allows this to happen? Big brother.

Look at little brother, so proud of his favorite toy, but then carelessly leaving it lying around to be found by whosoever when sleeping off his excesses.

But then, looking at Wendaria, how can we tell that Lodril is the little brother? Doesn't the yelmic myth paint Yelm in the position of the Third Brother who doesn't repeat the mistakes of the first two? The Naverian story-line about the White Queen usurped by Brighteye gives us a chronology different from YS, where the Earthwalker Mountainmaker Firepainter has been active for a long time before Brighteye invents a new meaning for justice, "deneb".

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

It's not hard to imagine a strange and secret story the Monster Men tell where Lodril asserts his prerogatives and his own brother slaps him down hard, hamstrings him, boots him from heaven, takes his Light and leaves only Low Fire behind. 

The glare of Brighteye obscured all of the heavens. The Birth of Umath and later the initiation of Orlanth allowed the sky to be re-populated by entities like Lorion and Buburstus.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Umath claims his birthright and is pushed. The Fourth Man, the consigliere of heaven, is always content to remain a servant, always the uncle and never the all-father. Or at least that's how he's portrayed. Like Dayzatar. At best all that's left behind are little suns, unfree masculinities. Subordinates.

And then there's Shargash, who is also a "tantric" god with his own rites. If we can point to the Sex Pit on the god learner maps whose city of carnal license would it be? Lodril's? Shagash's? Doomed Zarkos?

Look at the Copper Tablets instead, for the inverted pyramid in the southwest, and allow for the altered course of the Oslir that puts Nivorah as the southeastern city northeast of Alkoth.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Which commandment did Rebellus Terminus most want to break? Covet thy brother's wife? His son like Hamlet gets payback. At a certain point it gets hard to distinguish which ones are "little suns" and which are "storm sons." They're all pissed off youth who want something more than dad's deserts and are willing to fight to get it. They've got nothing to lose. They take different routes to justice. Some are just lethal. Others are just tricky. Others are upstanding. One combines all the best parts within himself and becomes an Orlanth.

I think "We All Are Us" was never more true than when it came to strike down the Emperor. RebellUs TerminUs. Four participants are acknowledged e.g. by Jar-eel, three of them had been to Hell and back, four if you take Orlanth's weapon.

The Avivath/Khordavu dynasty uses this story.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

A lot of the tribes who remembered the father got shipped off to what is now Umathela. Maybe dad was a noisy spear god, a smith castrated for his presumption, last son of heaven. Maybe he was the first of the storm gods. It's hard to say. He might even have been a talking god, a mountain maker, a soul arranger. One detail that people tend to agree on is that he was in love with the old lady goddess, mother and mother in law. When he was the mountain maker she was the mountain. Dad *has* the spear. Mom *is* the spear.

Not quite the case for the Soul Arranger, who "sat down" at the shaking valley in between sowing the Rockwoods in a way that divided both incompatible populations, forcing them to make arrangements on either side of the divide...

The spike was neither Earth nor Sky.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Also the Wall when properly interpreted is a combinatorial engine like the I Ching that reads the permutations of divine influence. Shuffle the masks of god and play the best possible hand. Be the biggest sun you want to be. Life's too short to work for someone else forever. This applies equally to the boys and girls of Dara Happa, come out of that place.

Something like a gameboard and a set of attribute cards where you exchange the Gods Wall rune with the one on your attribute cards for your helpers to define your approach? Is this limited to the Ten Tests, or do you prepare more? With each exchange possibly triggering more powers to collect on your own tablet`? When do you get to do the final challenge to place your rune on the throne?

What did the Ten Princes who descended from Avivath do?

 

Sheng Seleris was really close to re-uniting the Solar empires on a scale much grander than anything Dara Happa had ever done. He had covered the solar thrones of Raibanth, Kralorela, Teshnos, and sent out a first fleet towards Vormain which was rebuffed. Sheng was an astonishingly patient conqueror, as his 100 year term in austerity shows. His first incursions to the Lunar Empire had been rebuffed, too.

When Argrath releases Sheng from the Lunar Hell, Godunya has departed, and we have no information whether a new Emperor would have been able to establish himself. It is quite possible that Sheng re-acquires both Kralorela and Teshnos in no time short.

I am not quite sure what Sheng Seleris' victory condition would be in a Hero Wars edition of Gods War - have a temple each in Peloria, Kralorela, Verenela, Vormain and Seshnela/Ralios?

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I am now of the opinion that if something made an impression on God Time then it can be the focus of a HeroQuest. There are many examples of events that happened after Time began that had an impact on the God Time and can be used for HeroQuesting. Maybe those events created some God Time event that we are not aware of.

I'm on the record claiming that whenever the compromise got broken and the Gods Walked the World again can be quested to. How else could a questing troll mother take the primal curse of D'Wargon onto herself than by re-visiting the Battle of Night and Day as the Black Eater?

The dragon sun's daughter incident is a strange one. What was the Dragon Emperor planning? Was he in a similar position as his enemy Cartavar?

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Yes, I think Karvanyar's quest's outcome, 'Every Man a Sun' is probably somehow related to the emergence of Tharkantus, and Monrogh's 'Many Suns'.

Tharkantus: The Sun Dome temples had originally fought against the dragons. When Karvanyar rebelled, the Sun Dome temples were the border troops for the EWF, with surviving Old Day Traditionalists inside the EWF few.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Though not long after Karvanyar, the Yelm priests 'proved' that Yelm was 'not a/every Man' that innovation took hold amongst the proto-Yelmalions. Even Baboons can be the Little Sun.

After Karvanyar's success in Dara Happa, some of the Sun Dome temples switched sides again - by the time the True Golden Horde reunited the previously warring successors of Sarenesh and Cartavar, the Tharkantus cult of which Balazar was a part had become staunchly anti-dragon once again (or at least couldn't say no to the promise of rich plunder, a repeat of the 1042 revenge raid).

 

[scott-martin]

Who knows how many reacts are left in any one day? I run out a lot lately.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then, looking at Wendaria, how can we tell that Lodril is the little brother? Doesn't the yelmic myth paint Yelm in the position of the Third Brother who doesn't repeat the mistakes of the first two? The Naverian story-line about the White Queen usurped by Brighteye 

It's probably obvious to many that this layer of the material points to the rise of a patriarchal sky culture from the female earth mysteries. You start in a world that might only barely have a word for "fathers" and end with a society where women are an active vector of ritual taint. Consciousness shifts.

Once upon a time there was no sky and we all kept our heads here with our bodies. The difference between boys and girls was mysterious and abstract. Mothers ruled their children. Girls grew up to become mothers. Boys had ceremonial roles to play. Excess boys were expendable. You don't need a lot of boys to waken the mother within.

In some places boys came and went in bachelor herds and learned to demonstrate their value. In others the women concentrated their affection into a limited number of boys -- one is most efficient as long as everyone who matters gets her turn -- and replaced them when they wore out. These are the archaic Earth Rites. Call that boy a "king." Almost like a moon, he comes and goes, rises and falls.

The point is that one generation this cycle changes. A king in one place decides he wants more life. He refuses to repeat the mistakes of the ones who came before. He engineers a way to come back from the red rite. Maybe there's a priestess who helps him. She has what we would call an oedipal urge, the heart wants what it wants. He goes on providing daughters but this time there's a preternatural boy baby too. Equally importantly, this king goes on. He has posterity. The red rite is becoming irrelevant now.

The mood changes. A green world turns gold. We call his gold world "sky," space filling up with new dreams. More men decide they want to take more life. Eventually they get it and you have an emperor jealous of everyone else in what was once the bachelor herd. You have a new element alienated from the Earth that mothered and married it. GA has produced endless earth kings in her day but now she's produced an AETHER. Within that element the rules change. They don't think they need women any more. Some men remember but it's too late. To the extent to which they share the sky it's as subordinates, little suns in orbit. To the extent to which they remain lodrilite earth kings they are doomed to transience. Either way they're all more or less cucks.

But before the Red King came back, you had a Green Age. After the Green, the Gold. Who is red and green and a sky god also? Shargash. That might be another story.

The gap between sky and earth breeds prodigies. Cities down here rise and fall. Up here, some new stars flare and persist. The sky was dazzling then. But the sun creates its own shadows. Now we know the difference between people and trolls. People -- earth people, sky people -- have changed from the primal horde days. Earth conserves more of the old black rites within its depths. Sky by definition is the rejection of shadow.

The waters begin to move. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think "We All Are Us" was never more true than when it came to strike down the Emperor. RebellUs TerminUs. Four participants are acknowledged e.g. by Jar-eel, three of them had been to Hell and back, four if you take Orlanth's weapon.

It takes a conspiracy of sons and others to murder the monstrous father and break his monopoly on all the good things. Back when there was just a relatively simple Monster Man terrorizing a family you could tame him with your oven and then give him a "haircut" in his sleep like any other animal. 

The primal father of the horde was not yet immortal, as he later became by deification. If he died, he had to be replaced; his place was probably taken by a youngest son, who had up to then been a member of the group like any other. There must therefore be a possibility of transforming group psychology into individual psychology; a condition must be discovered under which such a transformation is easily accomplished, just as it is possible for bees in case of necessity to turn a larva into a queen instead of into a worker. One can imagine only one possibility: the primal father had prevented his sons from satisfying their directly sexual tendencies; he forced them into abstinence and consequently into the emotional ties with him and with one another which could arise out of those of their tendencies that were inhibited in their sexual aim. He forced them, so to speak, into group psychology. His sexual jealousy and intolerance became in the last resort the causes of group psychology.

We start out as an us in order to accomplish our allied aims: revenge, justice, ambition, restitution, who knows. It all boils down to killing the king who stayed too long for us to tolerate any more. All the repressed elemental weapons can participate. Gratification is rarely instantaneous. Sometimes individuals lose but the us goes on. When we win some of us might become individuals depending on conditions remaining on the board: a wise leader will share, a new Uther is probably as bad as the old one. Within the sky world they won't tolerate multiple fathers, only uncles. That's the sun rune with one dot that matters.

But outside the sky world the dream goes in the opposite direction. We start out with the slivers of individuality because some spark within us feels that it deserves outrage. We deserve to want. We deserve to hate what keeps us from what we want. We deserve to work against what we hate. We deserve more. And everyone's difference from the norm is unique, we start alone. I fight. If I find the right "we," we win. Once we win it's "my" responsibility to do better this time.

I could drone on about where these two versions of the story place the blame for breaking the world in the first place, who Bad Brother is on different sides of Dragon Pass, etc. The interesting thing for me right now is how WAU is a solar formula that explains how community expands from an original locus whereas IFWW was pioneered by OOO and his dark orientation. The "Only" in his epithet is noteworthy because it protects a privilege of unique seniority. His followers want you to know he is the only dark god at this level. And he is generally considered male.

Depending on your POV, Lodril is a black god or a bright god hidden in the dark places of matter, an impoverished god, castrated uncle cast down, our real father. Everyman. Acknowledged in modern Esrolia, land of mothers. Husband but maybe not necessarily Husband-Protector. OOO was the face of AA and AA was on the Husband-Protector list last I checked. Down there he ruled as something like a shadow emperor. Earth is the only element that reflects the split between light and darkness, sky and shadow, "benefic and malign." 

It's a Holy country for a reason, endless rival of the sun, built on infinite diversity and infinite compatibility. Land of race mixing, element mixing, insight and commerce. Arkat is also a black god who teaches that the I who fights today becomes the we who will win. 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

the Soul Arranger, who "sat down"

In honor of the Transvestite Sar Tar Hypothesis I yield that the Larnste contains within itself the power to propagate according to both sexes, almost like some kind of vegetable principle. Mountain "seeds." The problem of Krarsht. 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Something like a gameboard and a set of attribute cards where you exchange the Gods Wall rune with the one on your attribute cards for your helpers to define your approach? Is this limited to the Ten Tests, or do you prepare more? With each exchange possibly triggering more powers to collect on your own tablet`? When do you get to do the final challenge to place your rune on the throne?

It is now. In practice this probably looks like an esoteric ravenkaaz, which of course is the Battlefield of Night and Day.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not quite sure what Sheng Seleris' victory condition would be in a Hero Wars edition of Gods War - have a temple each in Peloria, Kralorela, Verenela, Vormain and Seshnela/Ralios?

First a caveat, I'm no Sheng apologist nor friend of Brightface. They're both winking assholes and Carmanos can be as bad. But my balanced viewpoint is that he is clearly occluded because why go through all that effort when he could've spent the time working on himself instead? 

He, at the very beginning of the history of mankind, was the Superman whom Nietzsche only expected from the future. Even to-day the members of a group stand in need of the illusion that they are equally and justly loved by their leader; but the leader himself need love no one else, he may be of a masterly nature, absolutely narcissistic, but self-confident and independent. We know that love puts a check upon narcissism, and it would be possible to show how, by operating in this way, it became a factor of civilization.

But even "failed mystics" have outcomes. (Especially "failed mystics" have outcomes.) I suspect he recognized that something was wrong in the exterior sky, the world that reflects more or less accurately in every mystic's inner eye. The sky offended him. Fixing the problem consumed his life. 

He didn't want to tear down the Moon. He just wanted to make sure there was a place for him and his gods on it. He wanted to "stand" there. That's a vector of hubris right there, but that's true of a lot of magic. Along the way to doing that, he intervened in as much of the sky reflected down here as he could. (As below, so above.)  He shuffled the pantheons and the stars moved in their wake. The moon resisted.

What's interesting is he doesn't seem interested in pushing through the Holy Country to the surviving Ralian sites. Something there stopped him as surely as Delhi stopped Genghis. Maybe it's this sense of OOO as imperial shadow, a kind of southern black sun with his shadowy hat and sunglasses. Maybe it's the revelation of IFWW that confounded or even evaded his mystic narcissism. It's funny that the solar people call the bad side of revelation the "occlusion," the shadow. 

Later an anonymous editor of the Entekosiad would note that something preserved the Pelandan bowl from the mass mythic interventions of the imperial era, creating a fertile space for the revelations of the third age: a new woman-centered spirituality, an altered sky, a moon hanging between them, dark and bright in its cycle.

[jeffjerwin]

scott-martin, I'd like your post but I've used up all my likes too.

It's clear to me that Sheng Seleris' 'standing on the Moon' is 'riding on the Moon' - he is a Pentan, after all. The Moon would become his mare, his consort, by castrating/maiming the Red Emperor, her lover and son. The female horse is of course a vehicle of sovereignty. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha) As pointed out by many others, the dead mare of the horse sacrifice is in fact the sexual partner (ritual or symbolic) of the king, as she remains in the Irish kingship ritual.

Thus the Shadow Moon empire. The Moon is still there, but she is suffering, a prisoner. She is not Empress but slave.

I think the 'crippled man' who helps Sheng Seleris to escape in that puzzling image in the Fortunate Succession must be connected to the maimed father, the beggar. He may be the Red Gardener in Kralorela. In fact, the Red Emperor would have sacrificed his fertility to father Yara Aranis. This may be the missing  'part' of the Emperor that rendered him unfit to rule Kostaddi, the land of the goat. Compare Osiris, also a man who came back from the land of the dead, missing his genitalia. The Emperor gets sick, is imprisoned in Pentan Hell, and perversely, becomes the lover of Gorgorma. Why does the 'cripple' help Sheng? Is the Pentan Hell connected to the Zolath 'oven' - the 'tapas', internal fire, (to use the Sanskrit) of Sheng's Un-Order? To use the internal fire model, perhaps the body is the Hell that traps the Sun (the burning heart and mind)...

In the Karvanyar story there's hostility between the blind father and his perfect son, who becomes emperor even after he restores his father's missing eyes and heart.

We know nothing of Sheng's father, but his treatment of the mystics in Kralorela shows contempt. Pentan patriarchy is no doubt an endless cycle of violence and hatred.... more visceral than the Dara Happans, who sublimate their unrest into 'duty' and perfectionism: self-hatred. Instead, Sheng hates the world itself. He is, in fact, very similar to Ragnaglar, but instead of ripping the universe apart, he tries to kill everything 'above' him. His end would have been becoming Kargzant, consuming the Sun. He would be the Evil Emperor. In this aim, he is no innovator: his ends are a matter of scale. Every Pentan man wants to be a khan, or is supposed to want that. His Zolathi slaves are his sons, but sons as automatons and extensions of his will, not sons that are meant to eclipse him.

When the future Emperor chooses the Widow's Son path - and by widow there is a neglect or erasure of the fallen, wounded father - he identifies Sheng with the Sun Dragon - which works, I suppose because of the parallels of mysticism, draconic insight, and tyranny - he is probably reviving the Red King rite, the hidden Darsenite, Darjiin path of parricide, husband-killing, that the Moon remembers.