Who's the Orlanthi deity of...

[EricW]

The cult of Eurmal Odorous has a strong affinity with cabbages and sprouts. Provides the Trickster "flight" spell. Eating cabbages or sprouts can increase duration. 

[davecake]

On 10/11/2018 at 4:59 PM, Jeff said:

Thanks to the diligent work of Claudia Loroff working out recipes from across the lozenge, we have discovered that Genertela does not have the potato.

The blue moon associations of the potato must relate to the Artmali and the Veldang, then. 

[David Weihe]

On 10/11/2018 at 2:17 PM, Joerg said:

Given the origin in Peloria,

Wouldn't it come from Pamaltelan mountains (as the analog to the Andes)?

Voyages to the southern continent have been going on for hundreds of years beyond what the RW had, so they, too, should have spread around the lozenge.

[Joerg]

I was aiming for a Lunar starch-providing tuber that would be used by a cult like Teelo Norri for alm feedings, and not necessarily the underground root nodes of something resembling the tomato.

We know that the Teelo Norri cult did provide alm feedings before Hon-eel brought back maize. The Seven Mothers "potato" bread notion in the Seven Mothers cult write-up would be that plant, that the locals - who might have heard about the Veldang tubers, possibly via Zaranistangi contacts - would have named a different plant whose produce somehow resembles what they were told about the potato. And that's why I thought about reed rhizome knots.

If the potato proper has a Veldang origin, it would obviously have its origin on the surface of the planet/moon Veldara.

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

a different plant whose produce somehow resembles what they were told about the potato. And that's why I thought about reed rhizome knots.

The Blue Moon resurrection mystery in Arcane Lore points to a plant that can propagate from discarded buds, allowing it to be consumed and then miraculously restore itself in the grave without benefit of normal fertility rites. A rhizome would do just as well. If this "devil's parsnip" happens to have psychoactive parts, bonus. They say it came from the moon and grew in its wreckage. It probably doesn't grow well elsewhere without substantial investment.

Actual "potato" content in Teelo Norri bread [die Brösel-Botschaft] may only be symbolic at this point, in remembrance of the meal Jakaleel prepared for them before things got intense. But someone who collects enough of the real thing and cooks it right can work wonders.

[Sir_Godspeed]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was aiming for a Lunar starch-providing tuber that would be used by a cult like Teelo Norri for alm feedings, and not necessarily the underground root nodes of something resembling the tomato.

We know that the Teelo Norri cult did provide alm feedings before Hon-eel brought back maize. The Seven Mothers "potato" bread notion in the Seven Mothers cult write-up would be that plant, that the locals - who might have heard about the Veldang tubers, possibly via Zaranistangi contacts - would have named a different plant whose produce somehow resembles what they were told about the potato. And that's why I thought about reed rhizome knots.

If the potato proper has a Veldang origin, it would obviously have its origin on the surface of the planet/moon Veldara.

Ah, like how Americans call maize "corn", a term historically used for any edible grain/cereal in Europe. Or how some Americans call sweet potato "yams", while the yams is actually a different tuber altogether.

Or, I guess potentially, how Christianity sort of just went with that the fruit at the center of Eden was an apple, whereas it's never actually specified in the Bible.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Leingod]

On 10/16/2018 at 8:27 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ah, like how Americans call maize "corn", a term historically used for any edible grain/cereal in Europe. Or how some Americans call sweet potato "yams", while the yams is actually a different tuber altogether.

Or, I guess potentially, how Christianity sort of just went with that the fruit at the center of Eden was an apple, whereas it's never actually specified in the Bible.

Or how pretty much any kind of fruit was often called an "apple" in English, or just about any kind of polearm could be called a "halberd" or "bill."

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/15/2018 at 12:54 PM, EricW said:

The cult of Eurmal Odorous has a strong affinity with cabbages and sprouts. Provides the Trickster "flight" spell. Eating cabbages or sprouts can increase duration. 

Clearly the source of the Secret Wind. It's no coincidence it's also called the "inner" wind, because it dwells within each of us. More in people with a stronger association to the Air rune, I'm sure.

[Darius West]

While we're on the subject of odd Orlanthi deities, does anyone have a better idea than Uralda as a patron deity of leatherworkers or a good idea for who the Tailor deity might be?

Edited November 20, 2018 by Darius West

[Joerg]

Ernalda (or/as Durev's wife Orane) really is the goddess for all kinds of textile work - spinning the threads, weaving them on the loom, sewing and embroidering the raw textiles into luscious garments.

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ernalda (or/as Durev's wife Orane) really is the goddess for all kinds of textile work - spinning the threads, weaving them on the loom, sewing and embroidering the raw textiles into luscious garments.

Her temples are often called Loom Houses...

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ernalda (or/as Durev's wife Orane) really is the goddess for all kinds of textile work - spinning the threads, weaving them on the loom, sewing and embroidering the raw textiles into luscious garments.

That is a VERY minor association for Ernalda. She's the goddess of Life, Sex, Earth, and Women, long before stuff like weaving. Weavers worship her, just as farmers and herders worship Orlanth.

 

[Akhôrahil]

Weaving is part of Orane's portfolio because it's a form of housework, something that most women do. Leatherworking and (especially!) tanning are specialized (and in the case of tanning, unpleasant) jobs.

It's true that Orlanthi religion isn't all that good at covering crafts. I imagine most craftspeople are just regular Orlanth or Ernalda worshipers. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

Tanning is such a specialized, yet widely used profession or activity that it does seem like it could have its own deity.

I tried looking up the Descent from the Mountain myth, to see if there were some deity that was associated as a keeper of Uralda, or even Urox, but no such luck there. I guess I might've jumped the gun by going straight for cattle hide since other hides can be tanned as well, but with the Heortlings, at least, so obsessed with cattle, it just seemed prudent.

Anyway, I could see a few options:
1) there is no particular deity associated with tanning and leatherwork.
2) It's associated with an Animal Mother or Ernalda as personifications of the animals themselves and the boons they bring.
3) It's associated with some variant of Voriof as the god of herders (imo, unlikely, given his youthful status)
4) It's associated with Orlanth is some manner, a generic male practice. Fine, but boring.
5) It's associated with Durev, as the Great Carl, the builder of houses, carver of wood, etc. This in my opinion seems a fairly good angle. In fact, he does lend himself as a patron to a lot of crafts.
6) It's associated with Barntar as a handler of animals, especially cattle before the plow. Also fine, imho, just a tad more of an abstraction.

Of course, all of these could be true depending on which region we're talking about.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Akhôrahil]

For a more specialized case, I'm assuming that Lhankor Mhy handles parchment-making.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

5) It's associated with Durev, as the Great Carl, the builder of houses, carver of wood, etc. This in my opinion seems a fairly good angle. In fact, he does lend himself as a patron to a lot of crafts.

I like the idea that Durev has a whole bunch of (very minor deity) sons, each of them the patron of a specific craft. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

That could make for an interesting myth. Durev, or whoever, visiting Lhankor Mhy to see how he's doing, finding out he's struggling with carving things into wood or stone, and then together they somehow invent parchment. Could become a heroquest where they have to get the permission from one of the Animal Mothers or Ernalda, maybe by driving off some foe, or solving a riddle.

Actually, that could be quite fun. A challenge based on wisdom and knowledge paired with practical knowhow and manual ingenuity.

EDIT: Or one of Durev's many sons, as you mentioned above.

Heck, "Durev's sons" could be a kenning for all the different crafts a good Carl should learn in their lifetime. Extrapolate that to an urban environment with artisanal specialization, and turn those allegorical entities into actual gods, and voila, you have Durev Durevsson the Tanner, Durev Durevsson the Joiner, the Brickmaker, etc. etc.

It also parallels Lodril's "Ten sons and ten servants", which seems to be based on the same logic of one "everyman god" being the father/master of specialized laborer/craftsmen gods.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ernalda (or/as Durev's wife Orane) really is the goddess for all kinds of textile work - spinning the threads, weaving them on the loom, sewing and embroidering the raw textiles into luscious garments.

That is a VERY minor association for Ernalda. She's the goddess of Life, Sex, Earth, and Women, long before stuff like weaving. Weavers worship her, just as farmers and herders worship Orlanth.

Did I say that Ernalda is limited to this role? Maybe I should have left out the "or" in the brackets.

Orane herself is not limited to the weaving, but also quite cognate to Orendana in name and role. While the loom house does produce textiles, it also serves as the female special council on all levels of Orlanthi organisation.

But I do think that Ernalda is the source of all textile technology. No idea what the Mostali use for their equipment (it shouldn't be anything relying on growth, really, so both plant fibre or animal integument of any kind should be out), but I don't see them weaving. Interlinked chain - possibly as the "Panzerkette" style interlinked meshes - might be more their style. Not exactly chainmail, not textile, but normal "clothing". (Quicksilver dwarves still need something more airtight.)

Textile weaving is a logical step ahead from weaving baskets or papyrus mats, a technology probably also available to Hsunchen. As may be net-making.

[jeffjerwin]

Isn't skinning an aspect of butchery? And thus a sub cult of Waha or whatever the Orlanthi call him?

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Isn't skinning an aspect of butchery? And thus a sub cult of Waha or whatever the Orlanthi call him?

Is Waha even a figure in Orlanthi mythology? I always thought of specifically as a Praxian Culture Hero, much like Heort to the Heortlings.

[jeffjerwin]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is Waha even a figure in Orlanthi mythology? I always thought of specifically as a Praxian Culture Hero, much like Heort to the Heortlings.

Jeff Richard has confirmed that Waha is the Orlanthi god of butchers, I think (he may be able to confirm). He's the son of Urox/Storm Bull, after all, and Orlanth's nephew. 

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Tanning is such a specialized, yet widely used profession or activity

Clearly dominated by the cult of Indlas Somer. 😉

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Jeff Richard has confirmed that Waha is the Orlanthi god of butchers, I think (he may be able to confirm). He's the son of Urox/Storm Bull, after all, and Orlanth's nephew. 

That's... both awfully convenient (no need to involve yet more names and identities, which strikes me as a bit artificial-feeling) and weirdly contrived (So did the Orlanthi just not have a butcher deity before the Dawn? How did they import him?

I don't see the importance of him being related to Orlanth via Storm Bull either, really. Vingkot is the nephew of Storm Bull, but he doesn't have any significance to the Praxians, from what I know.

I don't know, it just doesn't quite sit right by me. Give it a few weeks, maybe, and I might get used to the idea.

[jeffjerwin]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That's... both awfully convenient (no need to involve yet more names and identities, which strikes me as a bit artificial-feeling) and weirdly contrived (So did the Orlanthi just not have a butcher deity before the Dawn? How did they import him?

I don't see the importance of him being related to Orlanth via Storm Bull either, really. Vingkot is the nephew of Storm Bull, but he doesn't have any significance to the Praxians, from what I know.

I don't know, it just doesn't quite sit right by me. Give it a few weeks, maybe, and I might get used to the idea.

Well, Vingkot _did_ marry one of Tada's daughters.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That's... both awfully convenient (no need to involve yet more names and identities, which strikes me as a bit artificial-feeling) and weirdly contrived (So did the Orlanthi just not have a butcher deity before the Dawn? How did they import him?

Praxian and Orlanthi have always been intertwined, given that what was Tadaland (Prax) sits next to Dragon Pass. The influence of the Storm Mountains (GTG Map page 297) shows all of Prax is within Kero Fin's influence. The holy places of the Paring Stone, Onetree (Heortling Mythology page 75) at Tourney Altar are all important links. The Eiritha Hills are sacred as the holy site of the Cattle mother Eiritha (Uralda) and so it's no surprise that her son is the butcher.

We've know since Cults of Prax that Prax was "invaded" in 35 by missionaries of the First Council, from then the Praxians were then part of the First council. They received land grants in Peloria after 230 as part of the Second council up to 365. For 330 years the Praxians and other peoples mixed. Theylan culture was much more important in Prax at this time, than what would become Praxian culture as we know it today. After the Battle of Night and Day most Praxians withdrew to Prax. It was at this time the the first migrations took place, with large numbers of nomads heading across the Zola Fel to the Wastes, this was when Waha became truly established, independently from Orlanth. However Orlanthi culture is still part of the Way of Waha, look at the Cult percentages in Cults of Prax, they are a little out of date, but there are still 13000 Orlanth and Vinga initiates amongst the tribes and 8000 of them are impala riders.