Adulthood and cult initiation (long)

[Joerg]

Those of you who participated in the RQ-Daily might remember that this topic was confrontational already 25 years ago when we tried to apply the information in King of Sartar to our RuneQuest games set in a largely unexplored Sartar.

 

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that this is not nearly as a cut-and-dried as game mechanics (necessarily) make it.

So we have adulthood initiation rites. Let's call that initiation into adulthood. Nearly every adult is initiated according to whatever cultural rites are used to do that. So in Dragon Pass, we see Orlanth and Ernalda. In Prax we see Waha and Eiritha. In Peloria we see Lodril and the Grain Goddess. In a few places, you even see the Seven Mothers. And so on. A few people fall outside of that, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. 

Then you have initiation into a specific cult. Our new adult Orlanthi might get chosen by Issaries, our new adult Ernaldan might get chosen by Maran Gor, and so on. The Orlanthi tend to do this in a two or three year transition from childhood to adulthood. Other cultures might do it differently. In most cases, people are lay members, but player characters are almost always full initiates.

Does that help?

Actually, it doesn't. Although with the RQG somewhat experienced characters, it doesn't matter if your focus is solely on the PCs.

But then, this is RuneQuest, and your sidekick younger cousin is not a set of three abilities for your main character, but a semi-complete character sheet for himself, like Mr. Baboon in the Quickstart. Now if you are playing Sarotar and want to make good use of your cousin Dorasar who has just been initiated, this suddenly invades your game.

 

Creating an Orlanthi or a Praxian clan or an Esrolian house probably is going to be covered (at least in part) in the Gamemaster's book, hopefully with playable scenarios to introduce your weird family properly, or otherwise in a "there's no place like home" scenario/background product. That's when population statistics are going to be written up.

 

My easy answer to the problem "why doesn't every Orlanthi fly" is simply that quite a lot of the reliable, non-adventuring clan members spend the rune points they recovered in the seasonal worship rites on the fertility, protection and economy of their community early on, leaving them with maybe one or two available rune points if that many. Your stickpicker will probably be feasted once or twice per season for providing his magical rune point service for a carl or thane, and think nothing of that but enjoyment of that exceptional treatment.

 

But let's tackle when the young adults become initiates of a cult, gaining rune points:

Orlanthi boys get abducted (usually as a group) by the evil uncles, yadda yadda, and experience the I Fought We Won myth to some extent. They emerge as adults, without any rune points.

The first part of the initiation is experienced as Orlanth the Youth, up to the point where the feast with the uncles takes place. Then it turns to Heort's I Fought We Won quest.

Heort himself never initiated to Orlanth, although he may have sacrificed to him. But then Heort was a shaman and a shapeshifter.

 

So, after having undergone this adulthood initiation, are the former boys more than lay members of Orlanth?

Their runes manifest (as tattoos) as a consequence of the quest, as do their identity tattoos. But then, their runic make-up would have been observable already before the initiation rite, not counting quest benefits derived from details (e.g. which strangers you struggled with, which strangers you made your first allies). 

 

Initiation to the main cult(s) of your clan would follow soon. The boys can join any cult they like, as long as it is Orlanth (sometimes known as Barntar), or in special clans Elmal, Heler or Argan Argar. Given "parental" sponsoring (could be a grandfather or uncle, or a Vingan or Redaldan aunt), the boy might be processed through the cult initiation right away (possibly on the next day). Getting into the Lightbringer cults (Iss, CA, LM) may take some apprenticing, as do the lesser cults of the clan (Barntar, Elmal, Heler, Argan Argar, Engizi, Odayla, Yinkin...), but then much of that apprenticing may already have occurred prior to the adulthood rites if the omens were read correctly. Eurmal and Humakt are special cases. As is talking to spirits.

 

(Biologically) female adulthood initiation is biologically triggered, and may involve a hands-on introduction to sexuality if the gender fits. When does gender manifest in Orlanthi society? And which rites will the two non-standard biological sexes attend?

The young female gender adult emerges as a well-informed young woman as much as anatomy, conception and avoidance thereof are concerned. She may have lost the biological proof of virginity. No idea what the oddballs like Vingans undergo. Are they already put into the boy's initiatory groups, or do they have to participate in that after clearing the womanhood initiation?

 

Whenever I played a game of "fresh adults" right out of initiation, the characters were already defined in their cultic role, both as player and as GM. You might forward player hero exceptionalism, but meh. You want to give the player characters rivals, enemies, or just good contacts, and those shouldn't be zero level civilians as in the early Ampersand games, but on a comparable or at least somewhat "useful" level.

 

[creativehum]

I wasn't involved in any Glorantha based discussion groups 25 years ago, so I might be missing a load of context. So please understand, I'm not challenging anything you've written above. I'm just trying to understand it.

Can the post above be summarized as:

• NPCs that are not Initiates are not useful to the PCs.
• NPCs that are not Initiates are not useful for the GM as NPCs.

Further, could you define "useful" here? That is:

• NPCs that are opposition should be powerful enough to provide a threat... and if everyone is not an Initiate this threat is not possible.
• Everyone in the PC's family should be strong enough to back up the PCs when they head off to face off against antagonists that are Initiates. 

Again, I'm not here counter these points (if these are, indeed, the points being made).

The fact is I like Initiates being comparatively rare. And I see plenty of usefulness for NPCs that are not initiates. I'm not here argue these points, however. I'll wander off and do my own thing. But I want to understand what the post above is getting at. Am I close?

[Joerg]

Several approaches here, really, but my main thrust is the world-building I do to make my settings and encounters come to life.

One thing I like about the Orlanthi culture is that initiation really grounds almost everybody in the magic of their deities, and that it gives them a perspective for their afterlife. Without cult iniitiation, we go to a Hades-like postmortal experience while waiting for recycling. That is not exactly how I perceive the Orlanthi. There has been the looming threat of agents of reprisal ever since Cults of Prax was published, too. That these haven't been mentioned in RQG yet probably is because there have been no full cult write-ups, yet.

"Your heroes are exceptional" - that's a gamist position that doesn't help (me) with world-building. If my heroes are exceptional, then their rivals need to be as well, and so do their friends, and their rivals, and even more their foes, and we end up with a Bronze Age version of Marvel Superheroes. Which is fine once you start messing around with gods and empires, but takes away the "everyman" charm and gritty sense of belonging that RQG wants to promote.

Heortling society is pretty egalitarian.

8 hours ago, creativehum said:

Can the post above be summarized as:

• NPCs that are not Initiates are not useful to the PCs.
• NPCs that are not Initiates are not useful for the GM as NPCs.

No. I have e.g. babies and toddlers as NPCs in my games and scenarios, definitely not initiates, but very useful to me as GM, and a very powerful augment for their parents through passions.

 

8 hours ago, creativehum said:

Further, could you define "useful" here? That is:

• NPCs that are opposition should be powerful enough to provide a threat... and if everyone is not an Initiate this threat is not possible.

Every NPC encountered should have the potential to provide a meaningful opposition that cannot just be magicked away. If only one side has Shield 4 and the other side at best Bladesharp 2, you have the immaculate tank vs. the helpless victim. 

 

8 hours ago, creativehum said:

• Everyone in the PC's family should be strong enough to back up the PCs when they head off to face off against antagonists that are Initiates. 

Have you read my suggestions for Elmali families? I did try to show capable though not overpowering characters there, with somewhat memorable traits and abilities that set each other apart - and that within specialized households (somewhat elite households, due to the role of Elmal, but I got to include a couple of cottars, too).

It is possible to make memorable characters who aren't initiated to any specific god (and who aren't sorcerers or shamans). Rune magic was used sparingly in my RQ games (where I had a reusability house rule only slightly harsher than the one presented in RQG). Given that the player characters' opposition often was about to die, their use of rune magic possibly was greater than that of the player characters who would encounter a series of such opponents. If you can have spirit (or godling) allies doing their magic for you, you don't need to have that magic yourself.

But apart from hiring a shaman to ambush and abduct a spirit for you, there were only the cults who provided cult spirits - to their initiates, not to lay members.

 

Your average initiate will have something between one and four points in their rune pool, and may have used half of it already when you encounter them. Basically the other folk in your clan spending their rune points is the only reason why your player characters still have most of theirs available.

RQ3 was the first RuneQuest which had a "Gamemaster's Book" which dealt with creating a setting, and a very well done one, too - it was one of the main selling points that made me switch from another similarly gritty but more restraining system.

 

8 hours ago, creativehum said:

Again, I'm not here counter these points (if these are, indeed, the points being made).

The fact is I like Initiates being comparatively rare.

Is that preference of yours based in game balance, or does it reflect your imression of Glorantha?

Either way you would do well with a campaign set in Solar Peloria, where this is the norm, or with characters from a Heartland Corps regiment. Unfortunately, all the source material we have for RQG right now is about the place with one of the highest density of initiates anywhere in Glorantha. Orlanthi thrive on individual prowess, including the individual power to do magic, although their magic as a community and expressed through the embodiment of said community (called the wyter) is another important aspect, so far mainly available in the prose of Vasana's Saga (the Alda-chur experience, p.367.

8 hours ago, creativehum said:

And I see plenty of usefulness for NPCs that are not initiates. I'm not here argue these points, however. I'll wander off and do my own thing. But I want to understand what the post above is getting at. Am I close?

If your concern is mainly about RuneQuest and you don't care that your Glorantha bears only superficial similarity to the one presented in the Guide, then you managed to exaggerate the points I made about NPCs. 

My concern is RuneQuest Glorantha, and its integration with what we know from the Guide. The guide and many other sources available make it clear that "all" (6 out of 7) Orlanthi initiate to a specific deity of their pantheon, and that 6 out of 7 initiates belong to the cults of Orlanth or Ernalda.

The Orlanthi expect an afterlife in the God World in the home of their chosen deity, at least until they are called in for another go at mortal life.

 

There probably is no ancient society without (layers of) adulthood rites. And there probably is no Gloranthan society without a magical awakening, making the runes (or the virtues of the caste, etc.) available for augments. Heortling initiation conveys that magical awakening, the raw influence of the runes.

 

[jajagappa]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, Joerg said:

So, after having undergone this adulthood initiation, are the former boys more than lay members of Orlanth?

No, not until they can through cult initiation.

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, Joerg said:

But then, their runic make-up would have been observable already before the initiation rite, not counting quest benefits derived from details

I don't know that this would be so.  It's only here where those with the Chaos taint, or Trickster runes, are really revealed.  Perhaps their personalities will give some indication of what people suspect will be dominant, but not yet manifest.  (E.g. that boy was very restless - we thought he'd manifest the Movement rune, or Air, but turns out he's got Fire and Disorder within.)

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, Joerg said:

but then much of that apprenticing may already have occurred prior to the adulthood rites if the omens were read correctly

I do agree that there will be a lot of reading of omens.  It may well be that the Runes are very much in flux as a child grows so that this is an inexact art.  Some you can read well and direct accordingly, others are very much a mystery and even hidden from the gods and ancestors.

[Joerg]

18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't know that this would be so.  It's only here where those with the Chaos taint, or Trickster runes, are really revealed. 

What exactly would you call Trickster runes? Combinations like Vasana's, with Moon as secondary element?

In the normal RQ character generation, it is possible to select Disorder and Illusion as main powers, but does that make the character a Trickster? Getting Chaos through hereditary predelection would take quite a bit of GM interference.

18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Perhaps their personalities will give some indication of what people suspect will be dominant, but not yet manifest.  (E.g. that boy was very restless - we thought he'd manifest the Movement rune, or Air, but turns out he's got Fire and Disorder within.)

I do agree that there will be a lot of reading of omens.  It may well be that the Runes are very much in flux as a child grows so that this is an inexact art.  Some you can read well and direct accordingly, others are very much a mystery and even hidden from the gods and ancestors.

I thought that there would be post-birth blessings and omens which would offer first indications. Stuff like the violet eyes/left-handedness apparently are recognizable at birth.

But then, initiation is a heroquest, and decisions or unexpected failures may alter a course otherwise taken for granted. Like the encounter with cacodemon.

[PhilHibbs]

51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What exactly would you call Trickster runes? Combinations like Vasana's, with Moon as secondary element?

In the normal RQ character generation, it is possible to select Disorder and Illusion as main powers, but does that make the character a Trickster? Getting Chaos through hereditary predelection would take quite a bit of GM interference.

I don't think this is referring to PC character creation!

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

What exactly would you call Trickster runes? Combinations like Vasana's, with Moon as secondary element?

Illusion and Disorder primarily.  Maybe Moon originally until it acquired its more chaotic taint.  For instance, you've always known young Asborn to be troublesome and selfish, full of pranks and mean jokes.  When he emerges from his initiation he's clearly marked with the rune of Disorder.  His kin are worried.  Perhaps it can be channeled towards the Storm Bull, but everyone has their eye out now on Asborn.  And what of young Hereva?  She's always been very secretive, hidden, and prone to hiding things.  Her rites show her with a bent towards Illusion, not the practical ways of the Earth.  Maybe they'll encourage her towards Vinga - see if she can come to terms with this in association with her Air rune.  Or maybe she has an affinity towards music and dance as well and someone will encourage her to find a Donandar troupe.  But maybe that association with Illusion is just too strong and her kin think it likely that she will fall towards the Trickster.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I thought that there would be post-birth blessings and omens which would offer first indications. Stuff like the violet eyes/left-handedness apparently are recognizable at birth.

I'm sure post-birth blessings and omens are commonly looked for.  Who are the Three that appear at their birth?  Some may be ancestors (there's a reason Orlgard is so like his great-grandfather Hargard!), some may be known clan spirits, but there may well be Strangers or Gods, or even a discorporate shaman!  If Eurmal shows up, well that's a strong omen.  But Eurmal likes disguises, so who knows when he's secretly appeared.

If you figure the typical Orlanthi All, then 85% may well fit expectations at initiation, but those other 15%... well who knows!

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think this is referring to PC character creation!

I chose to post this in the RQ forum to avoid runes unavailable to humans under those rules. The more specific runes of the HW/HQ1 era leave little to the imagination which deity one follows.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Illusion and Disorder primarily.  Maybe Moon originally until it acquired its more chaotic taint.  For instance, you've always known young Asborn to be troublesome and selfish, full of pranks and mean jokes.  When he emerges from his initiation he's clearly marked with the rune of Disorder.  His kin are worried.  Perhaps it can be channeled towards the Storm Bull, but everyone has their eye out now on Asborn.  And what of young Hereva?  She's always been very secretive, hidden, and prone to hiding things.  Her rites show her with a bent towards Illusion, not the practical ways of the Earth.  Maybe they'll encourage her towards Vinga - see if she can come to terms with this in association with her Air rune.  Or maybe she has an affinity towards music and dance as well and someone will encourage her to find a Donandar troupe.  But maybe that association with Illusion is just too strong and her kin think it likely that she will fall towards the Trickster.

Disorder may be inconvenient and hard to keep peace with, but it makes for good assault forces. It is an attribute of Umath which he used to break the Imperial stasis. (And I know, Disorder is not opposed to Stasis, and that Umath also is on the record to have used Harmony against the Predark). Maran, Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran and Veskarthan all have Disorder, all are destructive, and in their myths that destruction is not directed at their own tribes (except as Veskarthan's punishment for submitting to the God Learners).

Illusion has been weakened - first by Disorder, when the Boggles shred Tylenea, then by the selective nature of Arachne Solara's web. Temporary reality is behind both the EWF dragon dream and the Lunar glamours, which may explain its bad press. But however much Illusion is opposed to Truth, it is not identical with lies or dishonor except through Eurmal - whose main attibutes Death and Fire are generously forgotten.

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'm sure post-birth blessings and omens are commonly looked for.  Who are the Three that appear at their birth?  Some may be ancestors (there's a reason Orlgard is so like his great-grandfather Hargard!), some may be known clan spirits, but there may well be Strangers or Gods, or even a discorporate shaman!  If Eurmal shows up, well that's a strong omen.  But Eurmal likes disguises, so who knows when he's secretly appeared.

And unexpectedly for a deity free of the Mobility/Change rune, Eurmal still heralds Change. Troublesome change, but often grand scale, too. Personalities like Broyan (reviving the Kodigvari rune) and Argrath probably had Eurmal lurking among their omens.

Speaking of ancestors, are these restricted to the resident clan of the parents, or are the in-law blood ancestors available, too? (E.g. what happens if a couple lives away from the clan in the city when the child is born? Or do we have plenty of highly pregnant women traveling more or less last moment to their clan of residence?)

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If you figure the typical Orlanthi All, then 85% may well fit expectations at initiation, but those other 15%... well who knows!

So basically, 6 out of 7 boys or girls prepared for their prophecied runic outcome will have received pre-initiation training that allows them a quick transition to cult initiation? Although, even though runically qualified, they might still decide to go for a different deity due to some experience on the Other Side, or some realized ambition. And among the runic misfits, often enough one of the runes may still be sufficiently in line with the cult's requirement, although the training might be a little harder.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Speaking of ancestors, are these restricted to the resident clan of the parents, or are the in-law blood ancestors available, too?

Given that I believe they are typically spirits that appear, I see no reason anyone needs to travel - the spirits appear in some capacity.  Of course, it may be more auspicious for the child to be born in some place favored by such ancestors (e.g. the stead with some small shrine to the ancestors).