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Strike Ranks advanced questions


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Hello! Sorry for my English but I'm not a native speaker.

I've got ho SR in easy situations work, but I have some doubts when I think about actual combats and multiple actions outside of melee.

Most problems revolve around movement. First of all, it's quite confusing that they dedicated phase 2 to movement, but from the examples it looks like you can (or must only?) actually move in phase 3.

Then, not-engaged pc:

1) does he add dex sr twice if he both casts a spirit magic spell and shoot an arrow? Does it all happen at once at the total sr? Or does he first casts at x sr, and then shoots. At x+y sr?

2) if he moves between those two actions, does sr modifier due to movement adds to the second action only?

3) if he moves before casting, does movement sr modifier add to the casting sr? (consequently, also the shooting will happen later)

4) if context changes a lot after phase 1 declaration of intent due to surprise (eg an hidden creature gets out of nowhere), are pcs allowed to change their actions entirely or not?

5) does gm declares before the pcs do, or the contrary?

6) combination of actions can't surpass 12 sr, but spells can be cast in 37 sr, so at sr 1 of the fourth melee round, as per rulebook. If a pc shoots two arrows and (let's say) is at sr 11 with his second arrow, can he start casting a spirit spell that would require dex sr+3 sr for magic points and cast it in the next melee round at sr 2?

7) since all rune spells if not boosted get casted at sr 1 (i assume dex sr does not apply here?), a pc will never be able to do anything else BEFORE casting a rune spell? Or only move + rune spell (casting it at movement sr+1) Or that's not what they intended, and it simply means that rune spells "cost" 1 sr?

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hello and welcome

It can be confusing as there are slightly different rule for Engaged and Non-engaged characters. The main rule however is that ALL actions occur by Strike Rank. But for ease of play characters who are NOT engaged can move first - but if they do anything that interacts with another then it happens on the correct SR.

So for example: Harmast is fighting a troll. His SR with the Broadswoard is 6. Yanioth wants to cast Befuddle but she's too far away, she must move two SR to get in range. The Troll's SR is 7. Vasana sees more troll's coming and what to get to a higher spot and ready her bow. 
So, Vasana's move doesn't effect anything this round so the GM allows her to get in position, taking the entire round. Yaniith moves too but as the timing of her spell is important the GM drops her into the SR; her DEX SR = 2 so she starts moving on 2, on 4 she's in position, Befuddle is a 2pt spell  (DEX SR +2 -1 = 3) the spell will go off on 7 (not the GM might allow Yanioth of ready her spell as she moved, in which case the Spell will go off on just the Spell's SR of 1 = 5). Let's say that the GM was kind and her spell went off on 5 but she fails her Spirit Magic Roll so she tries again, Harmast attacks on a 6 the Troll on a 7 and Yanioth goes again +5 for new spell, +2 DEX + 1 for Spell, but that equals 13, it takes too long (max 12)m so she'll need to try next round.

Answers:

1. The costs are added up. DEX+action+5 (for new action) then DEX+actions etc.

2. Yes, if you shoot then move then shoot again only the second shot is delayed

3. Yes, Add any Movement SR before DEX_actions - though some may be combined like drawing an arrow and movement, this is up to the GM

4. Yes you can change your action, but you may suffer a +5 SR is the new action is very different

5. This is up to the GM, situation etc. what ever is easier for you

6. Multiple actions don't add beyond 12, if you don't have enough you stop and the start the next round fresh. Only SINGLE actions that take multiple rounds like Sorcery spells carry over

7. Rune Spells are not effected by DEX and do not cost SR, they can happen first, with all other Rune Spells happening at the same time. You could delay a Rune Spell, for example move here first then cast it on as set SR. 

Hope that helps

Edited by Psullie
correction of typos
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3 hours ago, Psullie said:

Befuddle is a 2pt spell  (DEX SR +1 -1 = 3)

Why the minus 1? It's because there's the sentence that states that the first magic point is always "sr free"? 

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

DEX+action+5 (for new action)

What do you mean with "new action"? I've read that readying a weapon or a spell it's +5 sr, do you mean those cases? 

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

her DEX SR = 2 so she starts moving on 2, on 4 she's in position, Befuddle is a 2pt spell  (DEX SR +1 -1 = 3) 

Are you sure you need to add twice her dex sr, since she's doing only the casting action and the movement RAW counts as a "sr modifier"? 

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

Yanioth goes again +5 for new spell

If she's no weapons in her hands, does the +5 still apply? As I've written before, i got the impression that +5 is added only to ready an unready weapon, or to get one hand free from a weapon or object in order to cast. 

 

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

You could delay a Rune Spell, for example move here first then cast it on as set SR. 

And in this case, would i only count movement sr? 

 

Thanks a lot! 

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32 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

Why the minus 1? It's because there's the sentence that states that the first magic point is always "sr free"? 

Yes

32 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

What do you mean with "new action"? I've read that readying a weapon or a spell it's +5 sr, do you mean those cases? 

Yes

32 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

Are you sure you need to add twice her dex sr, since she's doing only the casting action and the movement RAW counts as a "sr modifier"? 

This one could be up to the GM

32 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

If she's no weapons in her hands, does the +5 still apply? As I've written before, i got the impression that +5 is added only to ready an unready weapon, or to get one hand free from a weapon or object in order to cast. 

Drawing a new weapon or readying a new spell is +5

32 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

 

And in this case, would i only count movement sr? 

Yes

32 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

 

Thanks a lot! 

Your welcome!

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4 hours ago, Psullie said:

Befuddle is a 2pt spell  (DEX SR +1 -1 = 3) 

One last question about this. 

Page 195 of the rulebook, in the example: "Vasana, with her DEX 11 (and DEX strike rank of 3) 
could cast a Demoralize spell, taking 5 strike ranks"

Since Demoralize is a 2 magic points spirit spell, it looks like you need to pay the first point of the spell too, contrary to what is written in page 194: "Remember that the first magic point used in the spell has no strike rank modifier." 

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If my memory and understanding is correct, this idea of the first MP not using a SR is new to RQG (not in RQ2 or RQ3).

If so it feels like s late change and I would not be surprised if there are several examples that do not reflect it.

 

In my opinion it feels wrong too. It seems like something that is an exception (1st MP SR free but not 1st Move SR etc) and I don’t like exceptions (except if they can’t be avoided 😀)

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2 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

If my memory and understanding is correct, this idea of the first MP not using a SR is new to RQG (not in RQ2 or RQ3).

No, it's true in RQ2 as well (p.36) as seen in the spell strike rank table.  A 1 pt spell (used POW instead of MP then) took 0 SR.  Each additional point added 1 SR for casting.

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5 hours ago, Psullie said:

... her DEX SR = 2 so she starts moving on 2, on 4 she's in position, Befuddle is a 2pt spell  (DEX SR +1 -1 = 3) the spell will go off on 7

Shouldn’t that be (DEX SR +2 -1 = 3)?

DEX SR plus 2 for Befuddle minus 1 for the first MP SR is free.

 

And I agree that applying the DEX SR twice is debatable. I probably wouldn’t.

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1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

And I agree that applying the DEX SR twice is debatable. I probably wouldn’t.

I think that I /would/ apply it twice -- the Movement SR's + the Spell-Prep SR's.  Each one happens to cost DEX SRs, but each is a separate thing that has to happen, and is harder to  do together.

Alternatively-- for those who REALLY want to go sooner -- I'd ask for a Concentration check; if it fails, you either trip or do not get the spell prep'ed... or maybe both...

I mean, this is NOT walking and chewing gum!!!  This is <moving tactically on the worldly battlefield> while <communing with the Spirit World to cast a spell> .  I do not think it's a "gimme" to do those both at once.  Conc-roll at least ...

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17 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Shouldn’t that be (DEX SR +2 -1 = 3)?

DEX SR plus 2 for Befuddle minus 1 for the first MP SR is free.

 

And I agree that applying the DEX SR twice is debatable. I probably wouldn’t.

Thanks Mechashef I was confused at first until I finally saw my typo - DEX SR +2 -1 =3

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20 hours ago, g33k said:

I think that I /would/ apply it twice -- the Movement SR's + the Spell-Prep SR's.  Each one happens to cost DEX SRs, but each is a separate thing that has to happen, and is harder to  do together.

There seems to be two ways of looking at this;

You appear to be treating them as two different actions:

1) A move which uses 4SRs (2 for DEX and 2 for the distance) and -

2) A spell cast which uses 3SRs (2 for DEX and 1 for the spell)

 

On the other hand I’m treating it as one action which has a SR modifier due to movement as detailed on P192:

Those moving no more than half their usual movement allowance may also participate in melee or perform other feats such as throwing a spell. Every 3 meters of movement adds 1 to the mover’s strike rank.

 

So I would calculate it as 5SRs (2 for DEX, 2 for the movement and 1 for the Spell)

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Also, please treat the rules as guidelines rather than things that must be slavishly followed.

In my games, Strike Ranks go something like this:

GM: Ok, so we have had the Statement of Intent, lets get to combat.

GM: Strike Rank One, Two, Three, Four

Player 1: Oh, I'm on Strike Rank 3 ...

GM: [Does the combat]

GM: Strike rank Four, Five, the NPCs attack [Does the Combat]

GM: Strike Rank Six, Seven. Eight

Player 2: When does my Befuddle go off? 

GM: What's your DEX SR?

Player 2: What's that?

GM: It's on your character sheet and you've been playing RQ for 20 years

Player 2: Oh, right, it's 3

GM: Then your spell goes off on SR 4

Player 2: OK, I befuddle the NPC that has just attacked, do we take time back

GM: NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Arrrrrgh!

 

 

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10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Also, please treat the rules as guidelines rather than things that must be slavishly followed.

In my games, Strike Ranks go something like this:

GM: Ok, so we have had the Statement of Intent, lets get to combat.

GM: Strike Rank One, Two, Three, Four

Player 1: Oh, I'm on Strike Rank 3 ...

GM: [Does the combat]

GM: Strike rank Four, Five, the NPCs attack [Does the Combat]

GM: Strike Rank Six, Seven. Eight

Player 2: When does my Befuddle go off? 

GM: What's your DEX SR?

Player 2: What's that?

GM: It's on your character sheet and you've been playing RQ for 20 years

Player 2: Oh, right, it's 3

GM: Then your spell goes off on SR 4

Player 2: OK, I befuddle the NPC that has just attacked, do we take time back

GM: NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Arrrrrgh!

 

 

Are you the GM, or "Player 2"?
Or do you sometimes GM, and sometimes be Arrrrrgh'ing  Player-N?

😉

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Also, please treat the rules as guidelines rather than things that must be slavishly followed.

In my games, Strike Ranks go something like this:

GM: Ok, so we have had the Statement of Intent, lets get to combat.

GM: Strike Rank One, Two, Three, Four

Player 1: Oh, I'm on Strike Rank 3 ...

GM: [Does the combat]

GM: Strike rank Four, Five, the NPCs attack [Does the Combat]

GM: Strike Rank Six, Seven. Eight

Player 2: When does my Befuddle go off? 

GM: What's your DEX SR?

Player 2: What's that?

GM: It's on your character sheet and you've been playing RQ for 20 years

Player 2: Oh, right, it's 3

GM: Then your spell goes off on SR 4

Player 2: OK, I befuddle the NPC that has just attacked, do we take time back

GM: NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Arrrrrgh!

Wrong reaction. Here's a better continuation of the GM dialogue:

"Can you overcome his POW of 21? Yes? 

Ok, the befuddled NPC has mistaken his target for his original target.

On to the next round."

How many players do you have that you have to ask something like this? Or are these newly created characters?

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Also, please treat the rules as guidelines rather than things that must be slavishly followed.

In my games, Strike Ranks go something like this:

GM: Ok, so we have had the Statement of Intent, lets get to combat.

GM: Strike Rank One, Two, Three, Four

Player 1: Oh, I'm on Strike Rank 3 ...

GM: [Does the combat]

GM: Strike rank Four, Five, the NPCs attack [Does the Combat]

GM: Strike Rank Six, Seven. Eight

Player 2: When does my Befuddle go off? 

GM: What's your DEX SR?

Player 2: What's that?

GM: It's on your character sheet and you've been playing RQ for 20 years

Player 2: Oh, right, it's 3

 

 

At this point ( since you said the player had been playing RuneQuest for a long time), I would say:

GM: Hmm, well, you must have been distracted this melee round, and you do nothing

Or, if I was feeling generous:

GM: Well, apparently, you decided to delay the spell, and it goes off now, at SR 8.

For a new player, I'd be more forgiving. If someone has been playing for a while, I expect them to know the rules.

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  • 8 months later...
On 10/14/2018 at 6:21 PM, Psullie said:

4. Yes you can change your action, but you may suffer a +5 SR is the new action is very different

 

Do you have a page/rules reference for that by any chance? It seems logical that this is how it works but there doesnt seem to be anything about changing your action after you state your intent in Phase 1. The +5 for changing to a different weapon seems to be simply the cost of doing so rather than permission to change intent. I'm going to run it that you can change actions but an actual textual reference would be great. 

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I'm not a Glorantha rules expert, but I searched the PDF of the core book for all instances of intent and re-read the strike rank section. I'm also recalling what I've heard from veterans. All that combined, I don't think you are going to find an explicit statement that says this. There isn't one needed, IMO, anyway. The 5 SR rule is deliberately vague. The goal of Strike Rank is just to establish an order. And if you begin with a Statement of Intent that places you in an order, but then elect to do something different, it makes sense that the "something different" takes you "time" (measured as a simplified 5 SR to prepare. After your Statement of Intent, if you were to keep the intended action, you can go on any SR after your original one. I think it also important that SR matters much more if you are "engaged" versus not. That seems to be a key distinction.

I think Runequest is squiggier than what your expectations are suggesting. There is nothing wrong with that. But I also think that if you keep going as if the ruleset is more precisely defined than it is, you are just going to get frustrated. Let go. Maximum Game Fun. It's ok.

Edited by klecser
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On 10/20/2018 at 12:45 AM, soltakss said:

<snip>

Player 2: When does my Befuddle go off? 

GM: What's your DEX SR?

Player 2: What's that?

GM: It's on your character sheet and you've been playing RQ for 20 years

Player 2: Oh, right, it's 3

GM: Then your spell goes off on SR 4 (3 round later - because you've been playing this game for 20 years and still don't know, and so I'll also assume your character doesn't know how to cast a spell either, and it's taken you that long to remember how... and to find your focus.... and to find a target you want to hit.....

Player 2: OK, I befuddle the NPC that has just attacked, do we take time back

GM: NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Arrrrrgh! 

 

 

Fixed it for you :D:D:D

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1 hour ago, klecser said:

I'm not a Glorantha rules expert, but I searched the PDF of the core book for all instances of intent and re-read the strike rank section. I'm also recalling what I've heard from veterans. All that combined, I don't think you are going to find an explicit statement that says this. There isn't one needed, IMO, anyway. The 5 SR rule is deliberately vague. The goal of Strike Rank is just to establish an order. And if you begin with a Statement of Intent that places you in an order, but then elect to do something different, it makes sense that the "something different" takes you "time" (measured as a simplified 5 SR to prepare. After your Statement of Intent, if you were to keep the intended action, you can go on any SR after your original one. I think it also important that SR matters much more if you are "engaged" versus not. That seems to be a key distinction.

I think Runequest is squiggier than what your expectations are suggesting. There is nothing wrong with that. But I also think that if you keep going as if the ruleset is more precisely defined than it is, you are just going to get frustrated. Let go. Maximum Game Fun. It's ok.

If you can whatever you want when it comes to Strike Rank resolution than why bother with the intent phase at all? RQG is not a "rules light" game. I've no problem with broadly defined rules in games like FATE but for a crunchier game like Runequest I'd appreciate more clarity. My "fun" is not hampered by clearly understanding the rules. I enjoy Mythras for example because of its mechanical complexity but I'm entirely clear on how everything works in it. I dont think having an explicit rule would hurt much and I also don't think the +5 SR rule is vague, it very explicitly mentions what it covers even going to far as to specify exactly how you get rid of the weapon you're currently holding. Thanks for clarifying that there is no textual support for changing ones intent. As I said above I'll allow it as it makes sense. 

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9 hours ago, Uthred said:

Do you have a page/rules reference for that by any chance? It seems logical that this is how it works but there doesnt seem to be anything about changing your action after you state your intent in Phase 1. The +5 for changing to a different weapon seems to be simply the cost of doing so rather than permission to change intent. I'm going to run it that you can change actions but an actual textual reference would be great. 

I certainly didn't put something in the rules requiring that. The Statement of Intent is an opportunity for everyone to quickly remind themselves what they are doing and when it will happen. I find it a useful opportunity for help make everything go faster.

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27 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I certainly didn't put something in the rules requiring that. The Statement of Intent is an opportunity for everyone to quickly remind themselves what they are doing and when it will happen. I find it a useful opportunity for help make everything go faster.

So it would be fair to say that the statement of intent is descriptive rather than prescriptive? 

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Just now, Uthred said:

So it would be fair to say that the statement of intent is descriptive rather than prescriptive? 

In the Statement of Intent, everyone says what they intend to do. What actually happens gets resolved in the next phases. Think of it like the game Diplomacy - every writes out their moves, but what actually happens gets resolved afterwards. In Diplomacy that resolution is simultaneous - in RQG it happens in order of strike rank.

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