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Strike Ranks: initiative order or action allowance?

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24 minutes ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

So if another PC needs a Heal Wound urgently I have to:

  • move to their position (round 1)
  • Cast Heal Wound, say with 10 MPs, on SR 11 of round 2?

Even if I can move there in (say) 6 strike ranks I can't cast the Heal Wound on Round 1?

I'm not so sure. You might be able to combine movement with casting here in which case the spell could go off while you are en route on SR1 of the first round. 

Also, technically speaking, does it actually state anywhere in the rules that healing magic, first aid, etc. has to be completed before it prevents death? I think it only states that such aid has to only be given, so being in the act might be enough to prevent death, at least until the attempt is finished.

So it might be that if you declare that you are going to go over to someone and cast Heal Wound on them, the fact that you started to do so might be enough to keep them from dying  at the end of the first round so you can finish your attempt on SR1 of round two. Note that I say might here, not does. I don't know just what  the current authors intention is, but it would seem to make sense to me for it to work that way, since otherwise there would never be time enough to cast a high powered heal spell and save someone. Also, it does kinda make sense that starting life saving procedures, magical or mundane, should probably keep someone alive foe a few seconds. For all we know Healing magic might be the magical Gloranthan equivalent to CPR. 

 

Obviously the original intent was for such spells to be able to work in saving lives, and it's just bad wording that is preventing things from doing so. 

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8 hours ago, creativehum said:

It takes place on SR 1 of the round per the answer Jason gave in the RQG Core Rules Question thread above.

Which of course is problematic if you're slightly outside range for that rune spell...a literal reading of the rules would suggest it's impossible to move first and then cast the rune spell...

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4 hours ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Does the MP used on Heal Wound not count as "boosting"? The spell says "The caster must simultaneously spend magic points equal to the points to be healed" which sounds as though they don't count towards the casting time. (Psullie said this above).

It increases the casting time. The rule is unambiguous here: "If more than 1 magic point is used to boost a Rune magic spell, or otherwise increase its effects, 1 strike rank is added for each additional magical point after the first." The bolded bit there is the catchall that handles this case.

As for whether or not you can combine unengaged movement with casting a long spell, I'd say RAW doesn't allow it, but MGF does.

The larger question of whether or not you can move and then cast a rune spell in the same round is likewise a bit ambiguous. I'd personally rule that you can, because it seems more fun and dynamic that way.

Edited by Scott A
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5 hours ago, Scott A said:

The rule is unambiguous here

Right.

The rule is unambiguous on p. 314

The rule found on p. 194 is also unambiguous.

The two unambiguous rules contradict each other.

i know I'm being a pill about this... but this is a pain in the ass.

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36 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Right.

The rule is unambiguous on p. 314

The rule found on p. 194 is also unambiguous.

The two unambiguous rules contradict each other.

i know I'm being a pill about this... but this is a pain in the ass.

The only way to satisfy both rules is that (for Heal Wound) on SR1 you cast the Rune Spell while in contact with the wounded area, each SR you remain in contact cures 1 HP, so by SR 6 would have healed 5HP. 

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2 hours ago, creativehum said:

Right.

The rule is unambiguous on p. 314

The rule found on p. 194 is also unambiguous.

The two unambiguous rules contradict each other.

i know I'm being a pill about this... but this is a pain in the ass.

I'm not seeing a contradiction. The rule on 194 is clearly the same rule as on 314, with a clarification added for how it interacts with the SR readiness table on 193, which reads "Each magic point used +1."

Edited by Scott A

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I might be simplifying and I might be making things more complex but why are we worrying about SR when there is no actual combat involved.  Unless there was a third party involved who was trying to hit the healer then I would be inclined to say that the movement and magic all takes place at SR1 (+(any additional MPs-1)) unless there is interaction with someone else...

It doesn't matter as far as order goes in this instance and really only is an issue of whether it takes one or two melee rounds due to the additional MPs.

Stephen

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5 hours ago, Scott A said:

I'm not seeing a contradiction. The rule on 194 is clearly the same rule as on 314, with a clarification added for how it interacts with the SR readiness table on 193, which reads "Each magic point used +1."

A clarification 110 pages later.

Because different magics work different ways (a strength of the game, as far as I'm concerned) one can read the rule on p. 194, and assume the notation on p. 193 does not apply. In fact, one needs only look at this thread to see exactly that happen. And for obvious reasons. Depending on which page your gaze last fell upon when looking something up, you might, or might not have that clarification in your head.

My point isn't that many, many rules aren't explained in the text eventually. Or ambiguities and contradiction within specific passages can't be sifted through after several readings and re-readings, with a player making a final call as best he can. Anything can be sorted out over time. My point is: Why the eventually? Why is the sifting required? I can do it. But I stand by my statement: It's a pain in the ass.

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1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Because most of the time when you need to give someone lots of HP very quickly back to stop them dying it will be in combat?

But you might not be actively defending against an attack when you deliver healing.  Then it would not be necessary to count SRs.  Obviously if you were healing while someone  was trying to hit you or the person you are trying to heal, then SRs become very important and it is important to know whether you get the healing in first or whether the attack hits first.  At that point you might decide to heal less than you were going to, just to make sure the healing happens before the attack...

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On 10/21/2018 at 10:43 PM, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

So if another PC needs a Heal Wound urgently I have to:

  • move to their position (round 1)
  • Cast Heal Wound, say with 10 MPs, on SR 11 of round 2?

Even if I can move there in (say) 6 strike ranks I can't cast the Heal Wound on Round 1?

Does the MP used on Heal Wound not count as "boosting"? The spell says "The caster must simultaneously spend magic points equal to the points to be healed" which sounds as though they don't count towards the casting time. (Psullie said this above).

The definition of boosting on p248 seems to read that "boosting" is only done to overcome Countermagic etc, similarly for sorcery p387, but the section on Strike Ranks p255 does say that the SR of a spell is DEX SR + additional points of spell + boosting magic points for Spirit Magic (although the Spirit Magic section doesn't mention boosting as the other two do).

EDIT: Just went back and read the discussion in the Rules thread and it does indeed say SR1

We used to play that Rune Spells went off on SR1, including any Magic Points (Temporary POW in RQ2, but Magic Points is a much better term), but any extra Magic Points used to boost the spell added to the SR.

 

So, casting Heal Wound with 11 MP, to heal an 11 point wound, goes off on SR1, but casting Heal Wound with 11 MP and a further 6 MP, to blast through Countermagic 6, goes off on SR 7.

 

That's why spells such as Cure Chaos Wound or Cure Ironburn are useful, as they provide all the MPs needed for the Heal Wound.

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Meh, in our game Rune Spells are powered/guided by GODS.  There's not some flow-rate-limiter on a character's mana...if the god needs to take 10 mp, they take it, in that same SR it's cast.  *POOF*

There's no compelling reason in my view to gimp Rune Spells whose MAIN asset is their quickness (esp now that your casting % has dropped from 95%) by slowing them down to the speed of hedge-witch spirit magic.

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18 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, casting Heal Wound with 11 MP, to heal an 11 point wound, goes off on SR1, but casting Heal Wound with 11 MP and a further 6 MP, to blast through Countermagic 6, goes off on SR 7.

Why do you need the extra MP to break the Countermagic? There are already 13 MPs-worth of Penetration (2 from the Rune Spell and 11 in the additional MP) in that spell, aren't there?

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1 hour ago, womble said:

Why do you need the extra MP to break the Countermagic? There are already 13 MPs-worth of Penetration (2 from the Rune Spell and 11 in the additional MP) in that spell, aren't there?

I suppose it depends how you interpret it. You could say that the Heal Wound goes off on SR1, and the MPs start flowing through the spell into the target. So if the spell is resisted or countered, you don't lose the MP that go towards the healing. If you boost it with MPs to overcome countermagic, it takes the extra SR, you lose them if the spell fails, but once it's cast, you start spending the MPs to heal. I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work, but I might houserule it that way if only to avoid people losing the Rune Point and the MPs if there's an unexpectedly large Countermagic in play.

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I

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I suppose it depends how you interpret it. You could say that the Heal Wound goes off on SR1, and the MPs start flowing through the spell into the target. So if the spell is resisted or countered, you don't lose the MP that go towards the healing. If you boost it with MPs to overcome countermagic, it takes the extra SR, you lose them if the spell fails, but once it's cast, you start spending the MPs to heal. I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work, but I might houserule it that way if only to avoid people losing the Rune Point and the MPs if there's an unexpectedly large Countermagic in play.

I get the impression from this thread that the intent is for the spell to go off at the specific strike rank of 1+additional MP (or n+1+ additional MP if there are SR of movement before the caster gets their paws on the 'lucky' recipient) and have an instantaneous effect. I think if it didn't say "...caster must simultaneously spend magic points equal to the points to be healed..." I'd be more inclined to think otherwise.

As a more general point, though, MP expended to increase the effect of a Rune Spell: do they count as increasing the strength of a spell for the effect of penetration? Similarly Spirit Magic: a Heal 6 has the same effect against a Countermagic as a Heal 2 with 4 additional MP chucked in, doesn't it (as well as healing 3 times as much, if the CM is 4 points or fewer)?

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58 minutes ago, womble said:

As a more general point, though, MP expended to increase the effect of a Rune Spell: do they count as increasing the strength of a spell for the effect of penetration? Similarly Spirit Magic: a Heal 6 has the same effect against a Countermagic as a Heal 2 with 4 additional MP chucked in, doesn't it (as well as healing 3 times as much, if the CM is 4 points or fewer)?

Yes.

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3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I suppose it depends how you interpret it. You could say that the Heal Wound goes off on SR1, and the MPs start flowing through the spell into the target. 

That's an interesting take on it. It's not how most people view it, but I think having the healing spell take effect at one magic point per Strike Rank would be kinda neat. People could see large wounds close over a couple of seconds/Strike Ranks. 

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4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I suppose it depends how you interpret it. You could say that the Heal Wound goes off on SR1, and the MPs start flowing through the spell into the target. So if the spell is resisted or countered, you don't lose the MP that go towards the healing. If you boost it with MPs to overcome countermagic, it takes the extra SR, you lose them if the spell fails, but once it's cast, you start spending the MPs to heal. I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work, but I might houserule it that way if only to avoid people losing the Rune Point and the MPs if there's an unexpectedly large Countermagic in play.

Then what about Axe/Sword Trance? Does the spell effect build up strike rank by strike rank?

And is it possible to follow up a Heal Wound 9 with a Heal 5 in the same melee round, on SR 6, or are you still busy pumping those MP into the Heal Wound?

 

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5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Then what about Axe/Sword Trance? Does the spell effect build up strike rank by strike rank?

And is it possible to follow up a Heal Wound 9 with a Heal 5 in the same melee round, on SR 6, or are you still busy pumping those MP into the Heal Wound?

 

I'd think yes to the first, though I'd guess many would wait until it was fully in effect before wading into battle.

I'd think you'd still be pumping healing thru SR 9?

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29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Then what about Axe/Sword Trance? Does the spell effect build up strike rank by strike rank?

I think the "1MP and 1HP per SR" model for Heal Wound is more of a thought experiment than anything else...

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And is it possible to follow up a Heal Wound 9 with a Heal 5 in the same melee round, on SR 6, or are you still busy pumping those MP into the Heal Wound?

Emphatically not, by RAW.

Quote

Casting a Rune magic spell prevents an adventurer from casting any other Rune magic, spirit magic, or sorcery spells that round.

 p314 "Casting a Rune Spell". And the bold isn't even mine; it is thus emphasised in the rules. Even if we ignore that and go with "always takes effect on SR1" and ignore the time taken to wind up the extra MP (which, as Wolfpack48 mentions you'd only be letting rip with on SR 9 anyway), you'd need 5SR to 'ready' your Heal spell (p194), and Dex+4SR to actually cast it, so:

1: Cast Heal Wound

6: Finish 'readying' Heal

So with a DSR of 2 or less you'll cast on 12 or 11 or 10.

But I think the consensus is that the rules say you'd actually finish casting Heal Wound on 8 or 9, so you wouldn't have 'readied' your spirit magic by the end of the round anyway.

 

Edited by womble
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16 hours ago, womble said:

Why do you need the extra MP to break the Countermagic? There are already 13 MPs-worth of Penetration (2 from the Rune Spell and 11 in the additional MP) in that spell, aren't there?

We played that the Rune Spell is a package, so the Heal Wound Runespell is a 1 point spell that contains the MPs within it. Magic Points used to boost a spell go outside the Package and act to boost the spell's strength.

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Heal wound being 1 rune point has the strength of a 2 pt spirit magic.  It gets blocked easily by countermagic and needs to be powered past.  Once it goes of the casters mps being converted to recipients hit points is a spell effect.

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3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Heal wound being 1 rune point has the strength of a 2 pt spirit magic.  It gets blocked easily by countermagic and needs to be powered past.  Once it goes of the casters mps being converted to recipients hit points is a spell effect.

I don't think that is the way that it is supposed to work. I think the MP used for healing count against Countermagic.

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7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that is the way that it is supposed to work. I think the MP used for healing count against Countermagic.

Nope.  It's never worked that way.  Converting mp's into hit points is clearly a spell effect.

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