Dragonspeaker Cult (First Draft)

[Richard S.]

Hey all. I'm playing in an RQG campaign soon and got permission to have a dragon mystic character. This is my attempt at writing up a cult based on the EWF's Dragonspeaker cult, though I've made the decision of making it a regular Rune cult as opposed to making a new dragon magic system for human PCs (well I technically did that already but it was way too complicated). I'd like some feedback on the cult from people who know the game better than I do, and maybe some of your thoughts on just draconic mysticism in general too. We're not starting for a few days I don't think so I have time to edit the cult if this thread provides some good ideas.

Here's the link to the doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zBNZWAq-1mRuysMhbA9TfE4UNxsD7crvsOjiAM0VOwY/edit?usp=sharing

[Joerg]

On a first glance, this looks rather similar to the RQ3 presentation of the Path of Immanent Mastery, which apparently was similar to the path Isgangdrang (the Speaker of the Third Council) was pursuing.

This does look playable, if as over-priced (rune-spell wise) as the RQ3 version (or its Hsunchen equivalents). You did a good job substituting temples to leaching off magic from the dragonewts (e.g. the dragonewt roadse) and true dragons.

I can see why you want to distance the cult from the elemental cults, although the breakthrough of draconism was Obduran's demonstration that you can both worship Orlanth and proceed on the draconic path of mysticism.

The mysticism side is almost non-existent. You do give a nod with applying the Meditation skill rather than the Worship (etc.) skill, but that's all.

If you are happy playing a partial shape-shifter, this cult will eventually give you some of those powers.

 

Arcane Lore suggested another way of residual draconic mysticism with its Red Dragon dojo somewhere west of Lunar Tarsh, near the Red Dragon lair. That dojo appears to be more like one of the Kralori martial arts styles, with some fire powers thrown into the mix, and possibly other options of spiritual advancement. But that's a different concept.

[Austin]

I like how you oppose the Dragonewt Rune to all the Elemental Runes. What would the Dragonewt Rune actually be classified as, though? My best guess is that it's maybe a Condition Rune? Also, do you have a plan for figuring out your character's initial Elemental Runes (since you want low scores, not high)? Will you get to start with Dragonewt Rune as one of your options instead of the six Elements?

It's a bit obscure to me how Dragon's Form functions. Transform Self lets three spells last for an hour, but the Dragonspeaker cult seems to have more which are eligible (Dragon's Hide, Dragon's Might, Dragon's Talons, and Dragon's Wings). In addition, "massive dream dragon" just seems more powerful than turning into a semi-divine bear (comparing to Odayla, the only cult using Transform Self at the moment). It's also worth pointing out that Dragon's Hide costs less, provides more, and is stackable compared to Bear's Skin (which is nonstackable). This feels particularly relevant to me because the Dragonspeaker cult seems like a smaller cult than Odayla (and generally bigger cult = bigger magic in RQG). I'm assuming that all Dragonspeakers are humans, and that Dragonewts function as normal.

On a similar note, Dragon's Breath seems to be a better form of Lightning/Thunderbolt (each of which are otherwise the premiere damage-dealing Rune spells) because it doesn't have the POW v. POW restriction of Lightning, and costs fewer points and doesn't have the cloud cover restriction of Thunderbolt.

Dragon's Thought is also crazy powerful, but... I like it, it seems like a cool zany trade-off for mastering the Dragonewt Rune.

I suggest that Dragon's Breath becomes a reskin of Lightning Bolt, and that Dragon's Hide becomes a reskin of Shield (though you can still use it with Dragon's Form). Those will help keep the cult at a similar level to those presented in RQG.

Additionally--if you're looking for brainstorming ideas--I wonder if the Power Runes could be implemented with this cult. From what I recall of the Bestiary's Dragonewt entry, they basically spend lifetimes engaging in a particular set of behaviors. I suggest that humans could mimic this, as part of the process of becoming a Dragon. The Dragonewt Rune and Elemental Rune dichotomy would still apply. What I think could be interesting is that to "earn" spells (or maybe actual dragonewt effects?) the Dragonspeaker cultist could have to max out each of a pair of Power Runes in turn (maybe ritually saccing a point of POW once he has?), demonstrating exploring the different aspects of life on Glorantha. So, after mastering the Death Rune and sacrificing a point of POW, maybe he learns Dragon's Breath. And then has to lose that Death Rune, and start mastering the Fertility Rune, or whatever, with the ultimate goal being 100% Dragonewt Rune, 0% in all Elemental Runes, and being 50%/50% in each of the pairs of Power Runes.

Also, if you're looking at being able to do the become-a-dragon thing with Dragon's Form, it might be appropriate to note in the description whether or not it can be stacked with Extension. Because who doesn't want to be a dragon for a year?

[PhilHibbs]

How about making Awaken the Draconic Soul a one-use spell, maybe just 1-point? That would make joining the cult a much bigger deal, your priest really has to be convinced that you are a good prospect.

[Ultor]

I really like the Dragonewt Rune mechanics. I worry that the cult itself is a bit too Immanent Mastery-ish in that it is centered around transforming oneself temporarily into a dragon, which I don't think is what the EWF was all about - they seemed to be about achieving draconic consciousness. I'm giving the dragonfriend in my campaign access to Dragonewt magic as she awakens new stages of draconic consciousness, but have been playing that by ear rather than with any dedicated rules. I'll be interested to see you experiences with this in play.

[Richard S.]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

On a first glance, this looks rather similar to the RQ3 presentation of the Path of Immanent Mastery, which apparently was similar to the path Isgangdrang (the Speaker of the Third Council) was pursuing.

This does look playable, if as over-priced (rune-spell wise) as the RQ3 version (or its Hsunchen equivalents). You did a good job substituting temples to leaching off magic from the dragonewts (e.g. the dragonewt roadse) and true dragons.

I can see why you want to distance the cult from the elemental cults, although the breakthrough of draconism was Obduran's demonstration that you can both worship Orlanth and proceed on the draconic path of mysticism.

The mysticism side is almost non-existent. You do give a nod with applying the Meditation skill rather than the Worship (etc.) skill, but that's all.

If you are happy playing a partial shape-shifter, this cult will eventually give you some of those powers.

 

Arcane Lore suggested another way of residual draconic mysticism with its Red Dragon dojo somewhere west of Lunar Tarsh, near the Red Dragon lair. That dojo appears to be more like one of the Kralori martial arts styles, with some fire powers thrown into the mix, and possibly other options of spiritual advancement. But that's a different concept.

Thanks! You make lots of good points, especially about the lack of a really "mystical" feel. I was basing this largely off of how the Dragonspeakers were presented in MRQ1, which was mostly just a standard cult structure with slightly different magic, so probably very similar to the PoIM (which is probably itself just a glorified Hsunchen tradition). Any suggestions on how to fix the issue? I like shape shifting and all but that's not the only thing I want for my character.

14 hours ago, Crel said:

I like how you oppose the Dragonewt Rune to all the Elemental Runes. What would the Dragonewt Rune actually be classified as, though? My best guess is that it's maybe a Condition Rune? Also, do you have a plan for figuring out your character's initial Elemental Runes (since you want low scores, not high)? Will you get to start with Dragonewt Rune as one of your options instead of the six Elements?

It's a bit obscure to me how Dragon's Form functions. Transform Self lets three spells last for an hour, but the Dragonspeaker cult seems to have more which are eligible (Dragon's Hide, Dragon's Might, Dragon's Talons, and Dragon's Wings). In addition, "massive dream dragon" just seems more powerful than turning into a semi-divine bear (comparing to Odayla, the only cult using Transform Self at the moment). It's also worth pointing out that Dragon's Hide costs less, provides more, and is stackable compared to Bear's Skin (which is nonstackable). This feels particularly relevant to me because the Dragonspeaker cult seems like a smaller cult than Odayla (and generally bigger cult = bigger magic in RQG). I'm assuming that all Dragonspeakers are humans, and that Dragonewts function as normal.

On a similar note, Dragon's Breath seems to be a better form of Lightning/Thunderbolt (each of which are otherwise the premiere damage-dealing Rune spells) because it doesn't have the POW v. POW restriction of Lightning, and costs fewer points and doesn't have the cloud cover restriction of Thunderbolt.

Dragon's Thought is also crazy powerful, but... I like it, it seems like a cool zany trade-off for mastering the Dragonewt Rune.

I suggest that Dragon's Breath becomes a reskin of Lightning Bolt, and that Dragon's Hide becomes a reskin of Shield (though you can still use it with Dragon's Form). Those will help keep the cult at a similar level to those presented in RQG.

Additionally--if you're looking for brainstorming ideas--I wonder if the Power Runes could be implemented with this cult. From what I recall of the Bestiary's Dragonewt entry, they basically spend lifetimes engaging in a particular set of behaviors. I suggest that humans could mimic this, as part of the process of becoming a Dragon. The Dragonewt Rune and Elemental Rune dichotomy would still apply. What I think could be interesting is that to "earn" spells (or maybe actual dragonewt effects?) the Dragonspeaker cultist could have to max out each of a pair of Power Runes in turn (maybe ritually saccing a point of POW once he has?), demonstrating exploring the different aspects of life on Glorantha. So, after mastering the Death Rune and sacrificing a point of POW, maybe he learns Dragon's Breath. And then has to lose that Death Rune, and start mastering the Fertility Rune, or whatever, with the ultimate goal being 100% Dragonewt Rune, 0% in all Elemental Runes, and being 50%/50% in each of the pairs of Power Runes.

Also, if you're looking at being able to do the become-a-dragon thing with Dragon's Form, it might be appropriate to note in the description whether or not it can be stacked with Extension. Because who doesn't want to be a dragon for a year?

For starting out I was thinking that you just won't want to put any extra points into your elements, and assuming you've joined the cult you can just pump 40 of your starting points into it. Maybe I could go with replacing one of your element choices with it, I dunno.  As for the power of the magic, size ≠ power all the time, just look at societies like the Puppeteers or the Larnstings, though it's true that a lot of really powerful cults will attract a lot of followers. My view was that the Dragonwalkers, while small, still have access to a great many EWF secrets which are pretty powerful, though spell balance was definitely one of my biggest challenges. Maybe I could change Dragon's Form to actually turn the character into a Dream Dragon, randomly rolled (probably putting a lot of restrictions on time extensions and stuff)?

As for the Dragon's Breath point, I was trying to base it on the Lightning spell but I must've missed the Pow v. Pow roll, oops.

On your Power Runes idea I did include them in earlier ideas of mine for dragon magic, either as a prerequisite for advancement or as something that actually restricts your development. Basically the goal was to balance them, with the advancement ides requiring you to have balanced a certain number of pairs to advance, and the restriction idea being that the total of your powers' differences and your elemental runes penalized your casting skill. Illumination could definitely play a part in this, as one of its functions in RQG is removing the "must add to 100%" restriction from your powers, according to the guy who summarized the rules from Nyaslor's cult in the preview GoG he got.

14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

How about making Awaken the Draconic Soul a one-use spell, maybe just 1-point? That would make joining the cult a much bigger deal, your priest really has to be convinced that you are a good prospect.

That's a great idea! Awaken was kind of a last minute though for me, so I didn't give it as much consideration as the other spells. Thank you for the suggestion!

10 hours ago, Ultor said:

I really like the Dragonewt Rune mechanics. I worry that the cult itself is a bit too Immanent Mastery-ish in that it is centered around transforming oneself temporarily into a dragon, which I don't think is what the EWF was all about - they seemed to be about achieving draconic consciousness. I'm giving the dragonfriend in my campaign access to Dragonewt magic as she awakens new stages of draconic consciousness, but have been playing that by ear rather than with any dedicated rules. I'll be interested to see you experiences with this in play.

Like I said to Joerg this is heavily based on MRQ's rules for Dragonspeakers, which heavily used transformative magics, though I do want to look into more mystical, interesting options for spells or even the type of magic, maybe something other than traditional Rune magic. How you're running it seems similar to my original idea of having the mystic advance through different "stages" reminiscent of Dragonewt castes, gaining similar powers as they do so, though later I had a theory that maybe human dragon magic was just fancily re-skinned Rune magic and scrapped the idea. Now I may want to return that idea to the drawing board, looking at all the suggestions on this thread.

 

Anyways, thank you all for taking a look and giving suggestions, your feedback is tremendously helpful 😃. I was also looking at a homebrew cult for some Pavis-based dragon magic (https://web.archive.org/web/20010117041300/http://home.primus.com.au/arkat/estangtang.html) and it looks like it has some good ideas I may steal too.