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Jeff

Horses, birds, and cattle

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Strange random fact - according to the God Learner taxonomy, horses are classified as birds (as they are descended from Ehilm and Mikyh) and not as herd beasts (descended from Ernalda and Hykim). According to the Blue Book, the three children of Ernalda and Hykim were Lofak (aka Eiritha) the Herd Mother, Fralar the Father of Carnivores, and Permala the Gnawing Goddess. 

Interestingly, Dara Happan mythology tends to correspond with this, and horses are considered a completely different type of creature from other herd animals, hence the Pure Horse People taboo on herding non-horses.

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Did the Dara Happan gazzam fall under the heading sky creatures, too?

And how does Ehilm correlate to Yelm in the God Learner scheme? The Flame of Ehilm is a long-established stage in the Lightbringers' Quest, in the presence of Yelm. What's the Pelorian take on this?

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2 hours ago, Psullie said:

King Hippogriff is the father of all horses, so all make perfect sense,

Yep. Hippogriff is the daughter of King Griffin, who is one of the sons of Yelm. Conceptually horses are viewed as birds (or at least kin to birds), rather than herd animals like cattle, bison, etc.

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This pretty much puts into words something I've had a vague feeling about for a while, nice to see it black on white.

This does explain the Pure Horse concept, the odd origin story of Hippogriff-turned-Horse and the presence of several Horse-themed Solar deities.

Moreover, it also explains why the Orlanthi and Praxians, despite being associated with herd-animals and pastoral lifestyles, are never seen together with horses in their origin myths. The absence of a hypothetical "Great Horse" (Or "Great Pony", as it were) descending from Dini along with the Great Ram, Cow, etc. fits nicely with this, and continues into how the horse only entered into Vingkotling culture once the marriage between Beren/Elmal, and Redalda was conducted, an act which also adopted into Vingkotling pantheon a friendly solar deity.

Now, this all being said, it does raise a couple of questions:

First off - What about the pony Hsunchen in Ralios? Where they actually Hsunchen? If they were, could they have been solar people that went "native" in or around Hrelar Amali? Or if not, could they still be tied to the solar aspects of Amali? An isolated Solar culture?

Secondly, the gazzam/dinos. My last reading seemed to imply that these are cousin-species of the Dragonewts/dragons. Is there a connection between Celestial Beasts (birds, horses, etc.) with "Draconic Beasts" (dinosaurs... reptiles in general?). I mean, Hykim itself is identified with Korgatsu, the Cosmic Dragon and creator of the Beast Rune. And they all lay hard-shelled eggs, for what it's worth.
 

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39 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:


Secondly, the gazzam/dinos. My last reading seemed to imply that these are cousin-species of the Dragonewts/dragons. Is there a connection between Celestial Beasts (birds, horses, etc.) with "Draconic Beasts" (dinosaurs... reptiles in general?). I mean, Hykim itself is identified with Korgatsu, the Cosmic Dragon and creator of the Beast Rune. And they all lay hard-shelled eggs, for what it's worth.
 

At least in Dragon Pass, the gazzam are pretty established as Earth creatures... the children of Maran Gor. If they have a connection it must be through the 'father'.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This pretty much puts into words something I've had a vague feeling about for a while, nice to see it black on white.

This does explain the Pure Horse concept, the odd origin story of Hippogriff-turned-Horse and the presence of several Horse-themed Solar deities.

Moreover, it also explains why the Orlanthi and Praxians, despite being associated with herd-animals and pastoral lifestyles, are never seen together with horses in their origin myths. The absence of a hypothetical "Great Horse" (Or "Great Pony", as it were) descending from Dini along with the Great Ram, Cow, etc. fits nicely with this, and continues into how the horse only entered into Vingkotling culture once the marriage between Beren/Elmal, and Redalda was conducted, an act which also adopted into Vingkotling pantheon a friendly solar deity.

Now, this all being said, it does raise a couple of questions:

First off - What about the pony Hsunchen in Ralios? Where they actually Hsunchen? If they were, could they have been solar people that went "native" in or around Hrelar Amali? Or if not, could they still be tied to the solar aspects of Amali? An isolated Solar culture?

Secondly, the gazzam/dinos. My last reading seemed to imply that these are cousin-species of the Dragonewts/dragons. Is there a connection between Celestial Beasts (birds, horses, etc.) with "Draconic Beasts" (dinosaurs... reptiles in general?). I mean, Hykim itself is identified with Korgatsu, the Cosmic Dragon and creator of the Beast Rune. And they all lay hard-shelled eggs, for what it's worth.
 

The Galanini were not really Hsunchen, although they appear listed as such in some old Seshnegi accounts.

In Glorantha, reptiles are not the direct ancestors of birds, although they have some ties, due to their closer connection to the Cosmic Dragon. Gata and Hykim are the source of reptiles, and Yelm and Mikyh are the source of birds. Think of the first as being an early coupling that placed Hykim closer to the Cosmic Dragon, while the second was more devolved. By the time of the couplings with Ernalda, Hykim is devolved and so distant we barely see the Dragon.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Galanini were not really Hsunchen, although they appear listed as such in some old Seshnegi accounts.

Ah, so much like the Qa-Ying are counted among the Kralori Hsunchen despite being Wind Children?

 

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

According to the Blue Book, the three children of Ernalda and Hykim were Lofak (aka Eiritha) the Herd Mother, Fralar the Father of Carnivores, and Permala the Gnawing Goddess.

I am curious if the name Lofak has any connection to the Lo-fak Yak people of the Shanshan.

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14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Galanini were not really Hsunchen, although they appear listed as such in some old Seshnegi accounts.

Still wonder how they got to Ralios though. Wonder if there's some myth of crossing the Rockwoods, or if Hippogriff "fell" locally in different areas for different people.

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In Glorantha, reptiles are not the direct ancestors of birds, although they have some ties, due to their closer connection to the Cosmic Dragon. Gata and Hykim are the source of reptiles, and Yelm and Mikyh are the source of birds. Think of the first as being an early coupling that placed Hykim closer to the Cosmic Dragon, while the second was more devolved. By the time of the couplings with Ernalda, Hykim is devolved and so distant we barely see the Dragon.

This is all well and good, but I can't shake the impression that dinosaurs are somehow related to the Dragons/Dragonewts... I thought I had it from the Guide (something about Dragonewts wavering off the path to Dragonhood sometime in the God Time), but maybe I have it from some outdated source, or even from a fan publication?

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10 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Still wonder how they got to Ralios though. Wonder if there's some myth of crossing the Rockwoods, or if Hippogriff "fell" locally in different areas for different people.

This is all well and good, but I can't shake the impression that dinosaurs are somehow related to the Dragons/Dragonewts... I thought I had it from the Guide (something about Dragonewts wavering off the path to Dragonhood sometime in the God Time), but maybe I have it from some outdated source, or even from a fan publication?

The dragonewts claim that the dinosaurs are failed dragonewts, and many sentient dinosaurs agree. The Maran Gor cult disagrees, however, and says that the dinosaurs are her kin and family. I find it prudent to agree with Maran Gor.

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21 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Ah, so much like the Qa-Ying are counted among the Kralori Hsunchen despite being Wind Children?

 

I am curious if the name Lofak has any connection to the Lo-fak Yak people of the Shanshan.

Yes, and most likely, yes.

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Does this mean that Glorantha horses hatch from an egg? If not, I wonder if their ancestors did, and how and when it was changed, and if it was by deliberate action for a specific purpose?

I'm wonder if Glorathan "horses" have as much in common with a Terran horse as Gloranthan "iron" has with Terran iron. 

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Horses are born the normal way. I'm not sure Griffins and Hippogriffs are born from eggs either (although Griffin Mountain might clear that up regarding griffins)!

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So are the Ostrich Riders any less hippophobic than the other Praxian tribes? Mother Ostrich is still a bird even if she was adopted by Eiritha. She might also sympathise with Gamari's loss of the power of flight.

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29 minutes ago, Byll said:

So are the Ostrich Riders any less hippophobic than the other Praxian tribes? Mother Ostrich is still a bird even if she was adopted by Eiritha. She might also sympathise with Gamari's loss of the power of flight.

Horses are not part of Waha's Covenant for a variety of reasons. Ostriches are.

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If Hippogriff is the daughter of King Griffin, she must have been very wayward, and possibly from a very wrong mother (some echo of the divine world-spirit world separation reign of terror for the Hero Wars/HeroQuest 1 period?), for the folk of her father to hunt her diminished descendants for food. Or are those the lesser sunhorses born from Ehilm and Mykih?

The devolution of Hippogriff probably also brought us intermediate entities like the Pegasi that used to occupy Pegasus Plateau near quackford.

 

Earth shakers have various origins and parents. There are those derived from mutated dragonewts, and their offspring (and who fears Maran Gor more than they fear dragons?), there are Maran's leviathanic children (coming in scaled, furred and possibly otherwise integumented forms, e.g. rocky shells), and I am rather convinced that the Murharzarm era gazzam of ancient Dara Happa were covered in down and had beaks like triceratops or hadrosaurs, and were another form of earth-bound fire/sky creatures. We just haven't written those myths yet.

Downy or feathered saurians help avoid the Flintstones of Bedrock feeling when picturing Murharzarm's Dara Happa. There will still be lumbering beasts directed by their mahouts, but with a more bird-like appearance, the dinosaur mode might be lost for something more fluffy, possibly a bit more Jim Henson-style strangeness (as in The Dark Crystal). This is the Golden Age, so no call for fortresses on gazzam back, although howdahs or huge palanquins between pairs of gazzam definitely are in order.

 

Are ratites fully birds, or some other intermediate taxon similar to magisaurs?

The dragonewt demibirds and the draconic dinosaurs are possibly similar in appearance. Tailed priests (the evolutionary stage sought by the warriors that fail and become dinosaurs) start to develop frills which are not that different from primitive feathers. Failed warriors might have earned those frills, but nothing else.

No idea where this leaves the reptiloid scaled dragons. Dragons do have hand- or finger-derived wings with skin in between rather than the advanced feathers of proper sky creatures like birds, pegasi or griffins. Most do have a fiery breath, as amply demonstrated in the Scorch or at the numerous molten hillforts and armies left behind by the Dragonkill.

Some say that dragons are associated with water, making the waters draconic and blue dragons dragons of water. But then, both Enkoshons and Aroka are monsters that have swallowed a water entity, not necessarily the water entity themselves (even though the standing waves covering parts of Prax and Greatway during the Flood were called the Aroka Sea).

 

What other sky creatures roam the lands? There are no horses in Pamaltela, but there are Bomonoi, humanoid creatures of flame. What other sky/fire critters do they have with them, do they hunt or ride any of those?

 

What about creatures native to the blue moon or the blue planets of the Storm Age and possibly earlier? Do those mimic Inner World critters, or do they have original shapes?

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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

At least one Blue Moon type is known: bats. These are mammals with flight, a sort of mixture of Sky and Storm.

Sky and Darkness, really, with Storm (for the mammal part) a distant third consideration.

I was looking for blue sky entities, sky and water (other than Tanian). The Loper beasts obviously fit that bill, but what else?

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I was looking for blue sky entities, sky and water (other than Tanian). The Loper beasts obviously fit that bill, but what else?

 

Would seabirds be considered more watery than other birds? Penguins in particular (assuming they exist)?

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Penglas? (blue heads rather than white? Or maybe the bodies would be blue and the heads stay white)

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5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Horses are born the normal way. I'm not sure Griffins and Hippogriffs are born from eggs either (although Griffin Mountain might clear that up regarding griffins)!

Is that a new Griffin Mountain, and is it a Mountain again, not an island? 

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3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Is that a new Griffin Mountain, and is it a Mountain again, not an island? 

Same old one - it never stopped being a mountain (aside from an RQ3 Gateway transplantation).  Its Gloranthan position remains the same in the Elder Wilds and is in the Guide p.198: 

Griffin Mountain: A tall and lonely peak located in the midst of the North Plains, it is inhabited by a clan of griffins. There are rumors of a great treasure to be found near the top of the mountain. The nearly extinct Windberry tree is also rumored to grow here.

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7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Same old one - it never stopped being a mountain (aside from an RQ3 Gateway transplantation).  Its Gloranthan position remains the same in the Elder Wilds and is in the Guide p.198: 

Griffin Mountain: A tall and lonely peak located in the midst of the North Plains, it is inhabited by a clan of griffins. There are rumors of a great treasure to be found near the top of the mountain. The nearly extinct Windberry tree is also rumored to grow here.

Oh, I though Greg dieced that it didn't belong there, hence the whole Island thing. Glad it's back. 

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3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Oh, I though Greg dieced that it didn't belong there, hence the whole Island thing. Glad it's back. 

No that was never the case. Rather RQ3 was generic, so Griffin Mountain became the generic Griffin Island. A HUGE step backwards.

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