Jump to content

THE SORCERY RULES YOU NEED TO REMEMBER FOR RQ:RiG !


Darius West

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There are two basic vows - The High Vow gives a basic amount of Presence, INT+POW-20 or a minimum of 1. The Vessel gives your Free INT as Presence. So a decent stat sorcerer can start with around 25-30 Presence just from those.

Thanks! That was what I argued, my players had other ("player-friendly" opinions).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Drain Soul looks like the ideal preparatory spell for a follow-up with Dominate spells and looks to be a spell offering a POW vs. POW contest. I would expect spells like Tap Body also to require a victory in the POW vs. POW roll.

Ah. There was bound to be one in there... But again, we're into "Sorcerors have to have [thing] to be any good" territory. In this case the Drain Soul spell (which means they need to start with Dispel or Summon as their "Philosopher" technique. Which while they aren't shabby, gets as cookie-cutter as having to have Fire (or Water or Earth) for Enhance INT... At least it's usable as a Strength 1, Range 1 spell, in order to get a POW gain tick... and pretty impressive at higher Strengths, if you can get it launched in time.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, womble said:

Ah. There was bound to be one in there... But again, we're into "Sorcerors have to have [thing] to be any good" territory. In this case the Drain Soul spell (which means they need to start with Dispel or Summon as their "Philosopher" technique. Which while they aren't shabby, gets as cookie-cutter as having to have Fire (or Water or Earth) for Enhance INT... At least it's usable as a Strength 1, Range 1 spell, in order to get a POW gain tick... and pretty impressive at higher Strengths, if you can get it launched in time.

If I was concerned more about cramming in more runes than about saving MP, I would go for Command or Tap as my main technique, which implies every other technique there is.

Which keeps bringing me back to the issue of ecologically viable Tap spells, as far as the sorcerer and his culture are concerned. If Tapping some ubiquitious elemental source is acceptable or even desirable, you would want to make Tap your go-to technique for cheap access to MP, and then use those MP to overpay all your other spells.

And in turn, if you come from a culture opposing this targeting (like being Orlanthi next to the Galvosti), the image of the evil sorcerer is easily spread.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

If I was concerned more about cramming in more runes than about saving MP, I would go for Command or Tap as my main technique, which implies every other technique there is.

One of the useful things about Lhankor Mhy training is it gives you Command.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Which keeps bringing me back to the issue of ecologically viable Tap spells, as far as the sorcerer and his culture are concerned. If Tapping some ubiquitious elemental source is acceptable or even desirable, you would want to make Tap your go-to technique for cheap access to MP, and then use those MP to overpay all your other spells.

And in turn, if you come from a culture opposing this targeting (like being Orlanthi next to the Galvosti), the image of the evil sorcerer is easily spread.

Given the general Cosmological background, I can see there being a lot of ethic-system-based objection to people just making quantities of 'world stuff' (including people, permanently) vanish for their own empowerment. The Theist and Shamanic communities revolve around 'bargains' and exchanges of power, and keeping what-exists around to do useful stuff, rather than blatant annihilation...

It also shifts the bottleneck back to Free INT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, womble said:

I don't think having units of foot armed with +3d6 Boon of Kargan Tor'ed weapons, strength 20 Ward Against Weapons and a couple of Neutralised Runes led by captains with 300-odd Battle and instant voice comms with their General is 'dilatory'.

Until multispell reappears, those things probably aren’t that big an issue at an army scale. There will be a LOT more initiates of cults than there are master sorcerers, so a few Thunderbolts or Mindblasts will deal with the buffed individuals - and as for Neutralise Rune, that’s what associated cults are for (plus most major cults, like Orlanth, have decent magic from more than one Rune). And the sorcerers currently do not appear to have anything like Morale to buff their entire army. 

Ironically, what probably makes Western armies contenders in RQG rules is that the Horali still have spirit magic, and possibly a bit of rune magic too. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, davecake said:

Until multispell reappears, those things probably aren’t that big an issue at an army scale. There will be a LOT more initiates of cults than there are master sorcerers, so a few Thunderbolts or Mindblasts will deal with the buffed individuals - and as for Neutralise Rune, that’s what associated cults are for (plus most major cults, like Orlanth, have decent magic from more than one Rune). And the sorcerers currently do not appear to have anything like Morale to buff their entire army. 

Ironically, what probably makes Western armies contenders in RQG rules is that the Horali still have spirit magic, and possibly a bit of rune magic too. 

 

I disagree, generally. You don't need to be a 'Master Sorceror' to lay that kind of mojo on someone, just have a big enough Inscription (it's why sorcerors are all old and wizened), and a platoon or company full of troopers willing to fill up your MP stores (or a Tap source). And with year-duration 'buffs', everyone gets a go, it's not just 'select individuals' you can snipe (with those Rune-suppressed Thunderbolts/Lightning that you don't get to use successfully very often). This is the sort of thing an organised society can arrange.

Orlanth doesn't have any extrinsic offensive spells that are not Air. Neutralise Air on folk, and you've gotten rid of the threat of a couple of high CHA Thunderous Initiates just nuking a dozen targets each with Thunderbolt, and you're down to push of pike, which you'll win, because your supergenerals will be baiting the Theists into wasting their spells, and yours just go on and on.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/13/2018 at 6:16 PM, Jeff said:

Of course there is a basis for the rule. One's limit for spirit magic is based on one's CHA; however, possession of spirit magic (a fundamentally irrational form of magic) impedes one's ability to reduce the world to essential abstractions which are then logical manipulated. Thus each point of spirit magic serves to reduce the maximum possible manipulation of sorcery. 

Yes, it does put a single sorcerer-adventurer at a comparative disadvantage on adventures in Dragon Pass - especially if they are trying to compete with in the same eco-system as their Rune Magic+Spirit Magic using colleagues. But then again, the sorcerers in Dragon Pass are mainly Lhankor Mhy scholars - they are using sorcery for information gathering purposes, like Geomancy or Reveal Rune (which are definitely cooler than Detect Whatever spirit magic spells).

Your complaint seems to be that being a sorcerer in an all Malkioni adventuring party isn't that much fun. Since we haven't published any material for running RQ in the West, there really isn't much of a basis for that complaint. Keep in mind, even among the Rokari, horali orders use spirit magic and many even use Rune magic. But that aside, any wizard that runs around in a small party of adventurers trying to fight "critters" unaccompanied by a small army of expendable horali gets what he deserves.

No, that is not my point.  Not at all.

Primarily, my point is that enforcing the rule that when CHA is used for storing spirit magic, to then use Spirit Magic to penalize Free INT is a ridiculous rule, because sorcery is already far too weak.

For example, the other name for Spirit Magic is Common Magic. Why should anyone be punished for knowing Common Magic, let alone a Sorcerer?   More specifically, why should a Lhankor Mhy or Aeolian sorcerer be punished for knowing it? They have none of a Westerners' restrictions or vows. There just isn't any good reason for it.  THAT is my point.

Edited by Darius West
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

If I was concerned more about cramming in more runes than about saving MP, I would go for Command or Tap as my main technique, which implies every other technique there is.

Which keeps bringing me back to the issue of ecologically viable Tap spells, as far as the sorcerer and his culture are concerned. If Tapping some ubiquitious elemental source is acceptable or even desirable, you would want to make Tap your go-to technique for cheap access to MP, and then use those MP to overpay all your other spells.

And in turn, if you come from a culture opposing this targeting (like being Orlanthi next to the Galvosti), the image of the evil sorcerer is easily spread.

The thing which nobody is telling us Joerg is that all Giants are sorcerers, and they have been tapping (SIZ) everyone else for generations and Glorantha is basically a terrarium with large water features. (jk)

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

No, that is not my point.  Not at all.

Primarily, my point is that enforcing the rule that when CHA is used for storing spirit magic, to then use Spirit Magic to penalize Free INT is a ridiculous rule, because sorcery is already far too weak.

For example, the other name for Spirit Magic is Common Magic. Why should anyone be punished for knowing Common Magic, let alone a Sorcerer?   More specifically, why should a Lhankor Mhy or Aeolian sorcerer be punished for knowing it? They have none of a Westerners' restrictions or vows. There just isn't any good reason for it.  THAT is my point.

As I have said before, sorcery is intellectually incompatible with spirit magic. You can still use spirit magic, but using your CHA to control spirits limits your INT's ability to manipulate the thaumaturgical equations behind large sorcery skills. That's my point - it reflects the setting as understood by the people who write the setting. For your information gathering LM player characters, sorcery is WAAAAAAY more useful than spirit magic. But also, such characters rarely have a need for really large sorcerous manipulation, so if you really feel you need your own Heal 2 spell, that's not that much of a harm.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jeffjerwin said:

I think the name "Common Magic" clearly explains the issue. It's not just about convenience. It's also about hierarchy and class. Sorcerers believe themselves to be elite. It would be like combining folk magic with thaumaturgy in the Middle Ages. It's just not done.

This is definitely one level by which I'd approach it.  It "sullies" the mind with thoughts of the commonplace.

I'd also look at it that the connection with the spirit world causes that to intrude into the mind (and perhaps even into the incantations, mental images, etc.) while trying to map out the logical steps you need to take.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Jeff said:

As I have said before, sorcery is intellectually incompatible with spirit magic. 

No, it is incompatible with Common magic.  It is just that common magic is also called spirit magic.

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You can still use spirit magic, but using your CHA to control spirits limits your INT's ability to manipulate the thaumaturgical equations behind large sorcery skills. 

Yes, but for no good reason.  It is a rule for the sake of having rules.

44 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 That's my point - it reflects the setting as understood by the people who write the setting. 

No, it reflects RQ3, not the setting.  Within the setting it makes precious little sense.  Sorcerers should know spells, and common magic "cantrips" also have a useful role to play.

46 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 For your information gathering LM player characters, sorcery is WAAAAAAY more useful than spirit magic. 

There are 3 useful spells in the Torvald Fragments, and a number that are pretty worthless.

47 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But also, such characters rarely have a need for really large sorcerous manipulation, so if you really feel you need your own Heal 2 spell, that's not that much of a harm.

That is a very subjective opinion.  If you don't manipulate your spells they are just third rate spirit magic.  For example, all the "damage" spells act as 1d3 damage spells i.e. disruption, but at twice the MP cost.  On the other hand, a bag full of rocks and a good aim will achieve superior results for the price of the bag, and hey, you can probably add half your damage bonus without spending another 4 MP.  Or you can cast a Strength1 Ward Against Weapons spell, which at 2MP is slightly less useful than casting Foodsong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I think the name "Common Magic" clearly explains the issue. It's not just about convenience. It's also about hierarchy and class. Sorcerers believe themselves to be elite. It would be like combining folk magic with thaumaturgy in the Middle Ages. It's just not done.

In RuneQuest, spirit magic is not called "common magic". It is described as such:

"Spirit magic is the most basic and common magic found in Glorantha. It concerns communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world and is practiced in one form or another by nearly every Gloranthan culture and religion." 

Spirit magic is used by most Malkioni, but (as I fear I have said for the nth time) specialists in sorcery tend to eschew spirit magic as it is limiting for those who try to manipulate and command the energy currents of the world through their own force of intellect. 

Jeff

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

No, it reflects RQ3, not the setting.  Within the setting it makes precious little sense.  Sorcerers should know spells, and common magic "cantrips" also have a useful role to play.

You're seriously disagreeing with Jeff Richard about rules not matching the setting? I can guarantee you that the Spirit Magic Free Int thing was not included just for RQ3 compatibility!

If you want to use RQG for a non-Gloranthan setting, or a your-Glorantha-that-varies, then go ahead, allow any mix of magical types that you want. RQG is specifically tuned for Glorantha, and Jeff is one of the primary living authorities on Glorantha.

Edited by PhilHibbs
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Darius West said:
4 hours ago, Jeff said:

You can still use spirit magic, but using your CHA to control spirits limits your INT's ability to manipulate the thaumaturgical equations behind large sorcery skills. 

Yes, but for no good reason.  It is a rule for the sake of having rules.

Not quite. The old doctrine of HQ1 advocated a strict separation between the sorcery world and the spirit world. There, the old concept of "this world magic" existed, though only in the shape of augments, not feats, i.e. not as an active ability. In other words, "this world magic" is reflected by using your runes or your passions to hype you up and gain a bonus to your activities.

@Darius West - your RQG will obviously vary. If you want Shaman-Sorcerers, go ahead, and why not give them RuneQuest Sight, too.

In D&D terms, you want to have MUs with Cleric magic. RQG does allow the mixing of magics, but at a penalty, as per RAW. It is your game, so feel free to ignore those penalties.

It is also your Glorantha to play with, which again gives you all the freedom to play as you want, and do with the background whatever you want. 

 

In the Glorantha I know, there is a proven way for sorcerers to get spirit magic done - they dominate a conquered spirit (or deity) knowing the spell to cast that spell, then put it back into its temporary domicil.

Ruleswise, I wonder whether a dominated spirit with the job "hang around me until I tell you to get active, then hang around again" would count against the CHA limit of spirits under the character's control.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing with Sorcery is that it's the 'long game'. There are no 'caps', like you have for Rune Magic, or Spirit Magic. POW keeps coming to those who 'act' and there's always something you can do with that POW to make your Sorcery more powerful. There are only so many spirits you can Bind, Rune Points you can stash away. There is a limit to how many stored MP you can usefully use with Spirit Magic and Rune Spells (even if that limit is how fast you can refill the stores).

This might mean that 'adventurers', especially starting ones, find Sorcery a bit pointless, because it is, obviously, weaker in the short term and tactical time frame.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, womble said:

The thing with Sorcery is that it's the 'long game'. There are no 'caps', like you have for Rune Magic, or Spirit Magic. POW keeps coming to those who 'act' and there's always something you can do with that POW to make your Sorcery more powerful. There are only so many spirits you can Bind, Rune Points you can stash away. There is a limit to how many stored MP you can usefully use with Spirit Magic and Rune Spells (even if that limit is how fast you can refill the stores).

This might mean that 'adventurers', especially starting ones, find Sorcery a bit pointless, because it is, obviously, weaker in the short term and tactical time frame.

Yes. And this is entirely deliberate on the part of the rules. You certainly can play an adventuring sorcerer - but you are going to be swimming upriver so to speak, especially in Dragon Pass or the Holy Country.  For many players, that's just fun roleplaying opportunities. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

@Darius West - your RQG will obviously vary. If you want Shaman-Sorcerers, go ahead, and why not give them RuneQuest Sight, too.

Common magic isn't shamanism.  Common magic is common.  Priests teach it. Shamans teach it.  Sorcerers should teach it without penalty but don't.  Sorcerers can summon and dominate spirits, but apparently they can't get them to teach common magic.

Edited by Darius West
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Common magic isn't shamanism.  Common magic is common.  Priests teach it. Shamans teach it.  Sorcerers should teach it without penalty but don't.  Sorcerers can summon and dominate spirits, but apparently they can't get them to teach common magic.

You seem to be going round in circles with common magic is common. As jeff quoted,

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

"Spirit magic is the most basic and common magic found in Glorantha. It concerns communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world and is practiced in one form or another by nearly every Gloranthan culture and religion." 

priests teach spirit magic from their cult spirits, shaman teach it using shamanism. We dont have a complete overview of sorcery, so we can’t say for certain that sorcerers can’t get spirits to teach their magic. It’s clear that sorcery users can use spirit magic, it just interferes with their capacity to do so. We have spirit magic, rune magic and sorcery spells with spirit magic being the most common and basic. So what are you calling common magic? Why do you feel that sorcerers should be able to teach that form of magic without penalty? If the answer is because you just think they should then qualify it with, in my Glorantha. YGMV is perfectly okay, but I don’t think Jeff’s going to produce an individual set of rules for you.

-----

Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You seem to be going round in circles with common magic is common. As jeff quoted,

How is pointing out a fact that nobody is addressing "going around in circles"?  That is just rude.  The point is that it is simple magic, available to everyone, and the current penalties are based on old rules that don't make much sense in the context of the game world.   You just have a fixed idea that things have to be a certain way, and aren't ready to consider the possibility that there is a case to be heard against an arbitrary rule that is based on a long standing prejudice that in its turn is subtly damaging the world by making elements of its history implausible.   Ergo, sorcery is pretty crap, yet the most powerful empire Glorantha has ever witnessed used it as its primary magic. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Edited by Darius West
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

How is pointing out a fact that nobody is addressing "going around in circles"?  That is just rude.  You just have a fixed idea that things have to be a certain way, and aren't ready to consider the possibility that there is a case to be heard against an arbitrary rule that is based on a long standing prejudice that in its turn is subtly damaging the world by making elements of its history implausible. 

Only it does nothing of the sort. Sorcery can be extremely powerful. It has also never existed in a vacuum. As has been said before in this thread, the societies where the higher-ups are Sorcerors have lower-downs who have both Rune and Spirit Magic. So the trivial stuff can get done with the easy Spirit Magic, leaving the top nobs to work on ending the world by accident.

The cosmological incompatibility of Spirit Magic and Sorcery in the canon setting has been laid out, and you're ascribing results to that which suit your own prejudices. If you don't want to consider that your assumptions about the consequences of the incompatibility might be overstating the case, that's fine: YGMV, but to require the world to change to suit your viewpoint over that of the caretakers is pushing it a little.

You call it an arbitrary rule: is that just because the default setting as-published for RQ3 where Sorcery was first trailed under the noses of starting players was non-Gloranthan? Are you assuming that the only reason for the incompatibility then was for game-balance? I do not know that to be the case. Perhaps it is. Perhaps there's someone who was 'there' at the creation of RQ3 before it went off-Glorantha who can say whether the incompatibility is Gloranthan or Avalon Hillian.

To avoid droning on: it seems to me that your disastisfaction stems from the fact that you believe that Sorcery and Spirit Magic being incompatible would preclude some of the major achievements of Sorcery-based societies: I believe the game designers disagree, and personally, you're going to have to say something new to convince me, let alone them, that it's sufficient impediment for a Society at a Geopolitical level to not be able to do what it has been said to have done.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Darius West said:

sorcery is pretty crap, yet the most powerful empire Glorantha has ever witnessed used it as its primary magic. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

The player in my game who had a sorcerer demonstrated to me that sorcery was far from crap. If anything it demonstrated that he was going to be the most powerful magic user in the game. It was his primary magic and he had no spirit magic deliberately (as he wanted the most Free INT). I’d like to hear more feedback from those playing or GMing sorcerers in the game, as to how they play, rather than theoretical rules changes. But that’s just how I play RQG sorcery as written.

  • Like 3

-----

Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...