Why bind a spirit?

[womble]

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

Yes, that would be the safer option. As it takes a round to impart the commands to the entity, you would do that then release. 

Is there not also the consideration that once it's out you need to first, engage it in Spirit Combat, and second reduce it to 0 POW before you can tell it to do anything?

[Tupper]

Thanks for all the comments!  I've generally assumed that the (more extensive) discussion of binding spirits in the Shaman section is supposed to apply to the use of Binding enchantments (i.e. that one can use the spells as well as the magic points of the bound spirits).

One thing that's still got me scratching my head is the role of the Spirit Binding spirit spell.  

As I see it at the moment, there are three obvious ways to bind a spirit:

• Spirit Magic: cast Binding Enchantment (spirit spell) to make the item, beat the spirit's MP to 0, use Control Entity to force it into the enchantment.
• Rune Magic: cast Binding Enchantment (rune spell) to make the item, use Command Cult Spirit to force it into the enchantment (requires POW vs POW save; only works on Cult Spirits).
• Sorcery: cast Bind Spirit or Bind Elemental to make the item, use Dominate Incorporate Spirit or Dominate Elemental to force it into the enchantment (requires POW vs POW save).

When I first read Spirit Binding, I saw this as a last stage (i.e. control the entity, and then bind it).  However there doesn't seem to be an analogous spell for Rune Magic nor for Sorcery (and Sorcerers are unlikely to use a Spirit Magic spell to do their binding, since the two magic schools are anathema to each other). This interpretation would make  spirit magic an inferior way to deal with spirits (in that it requires an extra stage the others don't).

In search of enlightenment, I looked at Vishi Dunn (the pre-rolled character), and saw that his spells were: Detect Spirit, Heal, Second Sight, Spirit Binding, and Spirit Screen.  So it looks a bit like he's fixing on bagging some spirits with Spirit Binding alone.  He does have a big old 14 point magic crystal to store them in (so he wouldn't need Binding Enchantment until he's filled his crystal).  So maybe Spirit Binding is a substitute for Control Entity?  Page 249 does say "To bind the creature not the enchantment, an adventurer must have a relevant control spell (such as Spirit Binding or Command Cult Spirit)."  I guess with this interpretation, Spirit Binding is an easier way to *bind* a spirit than by using Control Entity (since it obviates reducing the spirit's MP to 0 first), but if you don't have a spare enchanted item to bind the spirit in, it's a bit less versatile.  I guess this interpretation says that Spirit Magic is the "best" way to deal with spirits, since you have two alternative ways to bind them.

What do you all think?

[Thyrwyn]

It doesn’t matter who made the Binding Enchantment or how, only that it is big enough (at least 1 POW per characteristic of the spirit to be bound). A Rune spell could be used to command a spirit summoned by a sorcerer to force it into an enchantment made by a Shaman. 

Unless the enchantment has conditions limiting its utility (which cost additional POW). 

[HreshtIronBorne]

A Shaman defeating a Spirit in Spirit Combat can have his Fetch control it until the spirits magic points are greater than the Fetch's. I am gonna go look up the passage. 

[Psullie]

10 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

It doesn’t matter who made the Binding Enchantment or how, only that it is big enough (at least 1 POW per characteristic of the spirit to be bound). A Rune spell could be used to command a spirit summoned by a sorcerer to force it into an enchantment made by a Shaman. 

Unless the enchantment has conditions limiting its utility (which cost additional POW). 

While I agree with that, it raises the question, who is the Binder for the sake of access to extra MP and spells (assuming its that sort of spirit)?

[Psullie]

15 hours ago, Tupper said:

What do you all think?

Well first off no-one said that the three schools of magic are equally powerful or effective. In fact Spirit Magic is generally considered the weakest of the three.

Also, Control (Entity) is not used to send the beaten spirit into the crystal (I believe I miss typed that in an earlier post), that's what Spirit Binding is for. However each time a Shaman wishes to release the spirit she must first cast Control (Entity), which will always work, otherwise the spirit will perform 1 action then depart.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Psullie

[Darius West]

On 12/15/2018 at 6:57 AM, Tupper said:

This might be a dumb question: why would I want to bind a spirit into an item? It seems a pretty expensive process. If I need a spirit for some reason, wouldn't I just summon it and then control it? I guess binding it to an item saves me having to summon it, but is that the only advantage?

Spirits are also great for filling up your MP crystal collection (as you develop one).  IDK if this is still a thing, but you could bind spirits into your crystals, and use them to fill the crystals instead of drawing on your own MP.  Thus an 11MP spirit in an 8MP crystal would fill the crystal if it was empty, leaving the spirit with 3MP and it would get the remaining 8 points back over the intervening hours.  In the meantime, you had the 8MP to draw upon and more from the Spirit if you needed it.

[womble]

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Spirits are also great for filling up your MP crystal collection (as you develop one).  IDK if this is still a thing, but you could bind spirits into your crystals, and use them to fill the crystals instead of drawing on your own MP.  Thus an 11MP spirit in an 8MP crystal would fill the crystal if it was empty, leaving the spirit with 3MP and it would get the remaining 8 points back over the intervening hours.  In the meantime, you had the 8MP to draw upon and more from the Spirit if you needed it.

It's still a thing. Mentioned in that telling paragraph on p366:

"...Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal...The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

No shilly-shallying about with having the spirit fill the crystal and having its own MPs. With a crystal, it's like a binding enchantment, you just get the option to store your own MP in it, if you don't happen to have a Spirit to bind into it just yet.

[Psullie]

Spirits are a better source of MP's in crystals as they regenerate theirs independently. A crystal can be either/or. It can have a spirit or storage (unless its a very rare double crystal). you can have as many crystals as you want but a character can only attune to one at a time. It's also not clear if you can put multiple spirits in one crystal, though I'd be include to limit them to 1 each. Which, as Darius pointed out, could be more economic. 

[womble]

Most Spirits have more POW than the capacity of a crystal. Even a measly 5pt Crystal can hold that 5d6+12 monster you somehow managed to beat down because Spirit Screen and rolling a crit or two...

I'm pretty sure there's a limit of one Spirit per Binding, whether that's a Binding Enchatment or a Binding Crystal. It might even be explicitly stated somewhere, but I get a feeling it's clearly implied throughout.

[Zozotroll]

Somewhere, somewhen It was, it is just that my old brain cant dredge it up.

[HreshtIronBorne]

22 hours ago, womble said:

Is there not also the consideration that once it's out you need to first, engage it in Spirit Combat, and second reduce it to 0 POW before you can tell it to do anything?

Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.). Without the use of a control spell, an entity can be released from an item to perform one function, and then it is free. If a control spell is used before the entity is released, then it can be commanded to perform many actions and return to the binding item. Control spells automatically work against creatures while they are bound in items.
Also, a control spell supersedes the innate control held over an entity bound into an item. An enchanter who does not use conditions (see below) to restrict the use of their items may find their bound entities stolen or turned against them by crafty opponents using the proper control spells. Anyone that can use the item can also cast spells on the entity trapped inside: they do not need to be in physical contact with the item to affect the entity with spells, although they must use magical means of seeing (such as Pierce Veil, Second Sight, or Soul Sight) to target spells against a bound entity in this way.

No need to reduce anything's MP if you are patient and cast your control spells. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

you can have as many crystals as you want but a character can only attune to one at a time.

There is no limit to the number of POW storing crystals an adventurer may have, although they may have only one 
attuned powered crystal at any time.

 

Powered Crystals
Some of the crystals formed from the blood of the gods retain a certain potency. They possess various abilities and each also has a POW. An adventurer wishing to use a powered crystal 
must first attune the crystal.

 

So, the game differentiates between POW storing/Spirit Trapping and the POWERED Crystals. You can have as many POW storage crystals as you like. 

[womble]

46 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.). Without the use of a control spell, an entity can be released from an item to perform one function, and then it is free. If a control spell is used before the entity is released, then it can be commanded to perform many actions and return to the binding item. Control spells automatically work against creatures while they are bound in items.
Also, a control spell supersedes the innate control held over an entity bound into an item. An enchanter who does not use conditions (see below) to restrict the use of their items may find their bound entities stolen or turned against them by crafty opponents using the proper control spells. Anyone that can use the item can also cast spells on the entity trapped inside: they do not need to be in physical contact with the item to affect the entity with spells, although they must use magical means of seeing (such as Pierce Veil, Second Sight, or Soul Sight) to target spells against a bound entity in this way.

No need to reduce anything's MP if you are patient and cast your control spells. 

That was exactly my point: the Control needs to be cast before you let it out, not, as Psullie said a couple of posts previously: release then control. I was pointing out that not only doesn't the Control not automatically work if you've released the Spirit, but for Control(Entity), it takes potentially many rounds of Spirit Combat to bring a now-useless (cos it has 0MP) Spirit back under control, unless you just want to have it clear off after it's done its work.

We've been through this in this thread, and Psullie misspoke himself; I was helping him say what he meant to in the first place.

[HreshtIronBorne]

If a shaman extends a Control (Entity) cast on a spirit in a binding they can pretty much do whatever whenever. Which is a neat interaction. 

Sorry. Didn't. Mean to be a dick. 

[womble]

I should probably read the Shaman rules again... that sounds fascinating.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Our PC shaman has Spell Extension 2 and Power Within 2, so he cam spontaneously cast any Spirit Spell amd extend it indefinitely. If he sees a fire elemental in a binding he can try and snatch it if it isn't restricted. He can help us swap spirits into and out of crystals and to other party members. He can do all sorts of bonkers stuff. And he is literally just barely past rolling up. 

[womble]

Oh, there's a thing: magic crystals don't often have restrictions on use... makes them more risky vessels to keep a Spirit in as someone with magical sight and the appropriate Control spell can take them off you and set them on you in Spirit Combat (at least), which can be a bit of hindrance if someone else is trying to put pointy things through your bodily corpuscles.

[Psullie]

2 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

between POW storing/Spirit Trapping and the POWERED Crystals

ohh I missed that distinction, cheers.

 

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Spell Extension 2 and Power Within 2 [...] just barely past rolling up.

these are full Shaman abilities, did your GM allow rolling up a full Shaman?

[HreshtIronBorne]

Nah. He bacame a full shaman. In play. Just very shortly after being rolled up. He did surprisingly well becoming a big boy shaman. One of our players loves to play shaman and we have had several die trying to figure out how they work in the new rules. Lol. So, this one may or may not have been a tiny bit fast tracked. This clan has gone through more apprentice / young shaman than you can shake a stick at.

[womble]

 

26 minutes ago, Psullie said:

these are full Shaman abilities, did your GM allow rolling up a full Shaman?

There aren't many hard and fast rules about becoming a full Shaman from Assistant. Given the PCs are meant to have been doing their current Occupation for the past three years, the 1 year qualification period has passed, and, RAW, it's just about awakening the Fetch which can be as hard or easy as the Ref decides. Though one hurdle is that the Assistant Shaman has to have a way of Discorporating; they don't get to do it out of sheer natural talent until they already have a Fetch. Easy enough to get as a Daka Fal or Waha Initiate though.

Edit: definitely the one of the easiest Rune Masters to hit early, whatever character generation method is used, though Priest from the off is also doable with an 'assign your stats' method.

Edited December 16, 2018 by womble

[womble]

Another thing with Shaman is that you actually get something specific for becoming a Shaman, which you don't, directly, as a Priest, unless you get an Allied Spirit. You get improved Spirit Combat Damage, a couple or so abilities, Second Sight, Discorporation. Specific things you can do directly. Things like having a Fetch are 'potentialities'; mostly they're things that 'can be improved' like saccing for more Rune Points is for a Priest. Priests' benefits are more along the lines of 'opportunities for growth'.

[Zozotroll]

Why you should go Kyger litor.  Why limit yourself!

 

[Kloster]

16 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

Why you should go Kyger litor.  Why limit yourself!

 

Yep. RQIII Trollpack explained how you could be simultaneously a full shaman, a priest AND a sorceror. Let's wait a RQG Trollpack.

Kloster

[Blacktoad]

Hi All, I am putting on my evil enchanter hat for this question...

In the RQG book it states that for enchanting an object "The POW sacrificed for the enchantment does not have to be provided entirely by the enchanter; if the enchanter sacrifices at least 1 point of their own POW, others can voluntarily contribute to the sacrifice, with no limit."  Can you command a bound spirit to sacrifice its own POW for this purpose?  Or would the 'voluntarily' qualifier preclude this?

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