Sartar's Larnsting Magic

[jeffjerwin]

While comparatively easy to do in HeroQuest, it's all too clear (at least to my limited perception) that Larnsting metamorphosis magic isn't really covered by any of the current rules. How would you all do it?

(I'm not particularly interested in the answer 'don't do it' as my campaign I have planned out is set in c.1450-1470 and that magic is pretty central to Sartar's saga. And, as ever, making it something a PC could learn something of is pretty important for telling a good story.)

[soltakss]

You could hang everything off the Movement Rune, but that might be a bit of a cop-out.

Sartar is a bit of a mystery, as his background is unclear, except as a Larnsting. Even Larnstings are quite unclear, I think.

Knowing more about the background of Larnstings might help decide whether this is sorcery, divine or simply using the Movement Rune.

[jeffjerwin]

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You could hang everything off the Movement Rune, but that might be a bit of a cop-out.

Sartar is a bit of a mystery, as his background is unclear, except as a Larnsting. Even Larnstings are quite unclear, I think.

Knowing more about the background of Larnstings might help decide whether this is sorcery, divine or simply using the Movement Rune.

The Larnstings are defined as Illuminates and avoiding 'spiritual pollution' in HQ:G (as I do more research), which indicates they are Mystics. Le sigh.

Of course, we lack any convenient Mysticism rules as yet. Has anyone jury-rigged one together?

[Joerg]

Larnstings are mystics (though not conventional Nysalorean illuminates) and/or heroquesters, and these change feats are a consequence of their weird mystical/hero-power. They appear and disappear in history, apparently appear through inspiration, and disappear when no longer needed. (The powers appear and disappear, not necessarily the wielders of these powers, who live out their lives to whichever end they reach.)

They appear to have a mobility requirement, being physically unable to remain in one place for long (I wonder what weird Mostali tricks Sartar had included in the Royal Palace so that he could spend time in there on the move without leaving Boldhome).

Hendrik of the former Garanvuli appears to have been the first person inspired in the Larnsting ways, and he uses that to spread liberty to his folk hiding in the forests of eastern Kethaela, never being conquered by the Bright Empire. His tribe, the Hendriki, start out as at best semi-sedentary farmers moving from plot to plot, probably part of his magic to keep them hidden.

Hendrik's successors moderate the consequences of the Gbaji Wars for about a century, then the Larnsting powers disappear. Aventus for instance creates the foreigner laws which define the royal tribute in addition to the shadow tribute that goes to the Kingdom of Night.

There appears to be some conflict between the heirs of Arkat's powers and the Larnstings, but the brunt of that conflict is with the Kerofinelan tribes. By the time of the Tax Slaughter the Larnstings have disappeared, and they don't have much of a hand in the shaping of Orlanthland and later the EWF.

The spirit of liberty that makes Kethaelan Heortland such an indomitable and often unruly place is finally chained by Belintar, but that appears to release the Larnsting powers anew. It is possible that Belintar did this knowingly, and that his altered Andrin (and his successors) may have had some access to the Larnsting ways, but at the same time some old style Larnstings appeared (possibly from the ranks of Belintar's or his governors' henchmen), and among these Sartar, the only known Larnsting to have been able to leave Hendrikiland.

Sartar has at least two powerful transmutations among his feats - assassins to termites (which then get eaten by woodpeckers), and a powerful curse into a calm breeze carrying a sweet song. Making his presumably Jajalaring associate Ostling into a four-wolf Telmori chief is another such feat, but this was a lot less public magic.

None of Sartar's heirs inherited this Larnsting magic until the Dragonrise. It is unclear whether Kallyr or Argrath have some minor access to this.

 

[jeffjerwin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Larnstings are mystics (though not conventional Nysalorean illuminates) and/or heroquesters, and these change feats are a consequence of their weird mystical/hero-power. They appear and disappear in history, apparently appear through inspiration, and disappear when no longer needed. (The powers appear and disappear, not necessarily the wielders of these powers, who live out their lives to whichever end they reach.)

They appear to have a mobility requirement, being physically unable to remain in one place for long (I wonder what weird Mostali tricks Sartar had included in the Royal Palace so that he could spend time in there on the move without leaving Boldhome).

Hendrik of the former Garanvuli appears to have been the first person inspired in the Larnsting ways, and he uses that to spread liberty to his folk hiding in the forests of eastern Kethaela, never being conquered by the Bright Empire. His tribe, the Hendriki, start out as at best semi-sedentary farmers moving from plot to plot, probably part of his magic to keep them hidden.

Hendrik's successors moderate the consequences of the Gbaji Wars for about a century, then the Larnsting powers disappear. Aventus for instance creates the foreigner laws which define the royal tribute in addition to the shadow tribute that goes to the Kingdom of Night.

There appears to be some conflict between the heirs of Arkat's powers and the Larnstings, but the brunt of that conflict is with the Kerofinelan tribes. By the time of the Tax Slaughter the Larnstings have disappeared, and they don't have much of a hand in the shaping of Orlanthland and later the EWF.

The spirit of liberty that makes Kethaelan Heortland such an indomitable and often unruly place is finally chained by Belintar, but that appears to release the Larnsting powers anew. It is possible that Belintar did this knowingly, and that his altered Andrin (and his successors) may have had some access to the Larnsting ways, but at the same time some old style Larnstings appeared (possibly from the ranks of Belintar's or his governors' henchmen), and among these Sartar, the only known Larnsting to have been able to leave Hendrikiland.

Sartar has at least two powerful transmutations among his feats - assassins to termites (which then get eaten by woodpeckers), and a powerful curse into a calm breeze carrying a sweet song. Making his presumably Jajalaring associate Ostling into a four-wolf Telmori chief is another such feat, but this was a lot less public magic.

None of Sartar's heirs inherited this Larnsting magic until the Dragonrise. It is unclear whether Kallyr or Argrath have some minor access to this.

 

A couple things to note:

Hendrik's original clan, the Gavrenings, are also the Hunter clan. His tradition of food gathering may even be hunter/gatherer. His native area was heavily forested, and the Hendriki hid in the Steal Woods from the Bright Empire.

Hendrik used to work for the Bright Empire and thus came into contact with Nysalorean philosophy; indeed in HQ:G, Larnsting is defined as a type of Illumination.

'Orlanth Larnsting' = Orlanth Adventurous.

He also transformed enemy sorcerers into brass mules, which is a significant feat, I think.

I think it highly probable that Argrath has some sort of Larnsting knowledge.

Sartar's last transformation was his apotheosis.

[Darius West]

So we can agree (I hope) that the power Sartar is using is akin to the Meld Form/Proteus power of Mastakos, but a lot more developed and powerful.  What I like about the transformation stories is that Sartar seems to keep what is in the transformer's heart, and liberate them based upon it.  A curse is just happy little magic runes sharpened into a weapon, so he liberates them into the desire for happiness that motivated their caster's revenge.  Turning sorcerers into brass mules is obviously liberating their stubborn and mechanistic views.  Brangbane and his clan are liberated from a bloodthirsty chief into a bloodthirsty ghoul.  Sartar takes warring tribes and their secret desire for peace and liberates that into the basis of a nation.  Finally, Sartar takes his own desire to protect what he has built and liberates himself into a god.  It seems to me that Sartar takes the desires that motivate people and uses them to affect the transformation into liberty.  This is a clever piece of poison, as there is no confrontation, and therefore no POW vs POW.  He is giving the victim what they want, and making them more of what they are in their hearts.  In effect, the power is refuting the things about them that they don't want, but seldom in a fashion that they would expect.  Desire becomes a terrible stick to beat them with.  This bears a certain similarity to myths like Odysseus and Circe.  I would suggest that the bulk of the trick behind it would lie in understanding the motivations of the opponent i.e. insight.  When you truly understand someone and their motivations, a good person can coach them to be a better at being who they want to be.  If they are truly awful, a good person can also use that to more-or-less dis-empower them.  This is very different to Nysalori and Draconic mysticism.

[davecake]

Generally speaking, active Mystic magic is really other forms of magic, only with all the rules broken where they inconvenience the Mystics (who, as Illuminates, can break the rules). The mystic magic itself is rules wise, more or less something very much like Illumination, not that powerful on its own. 

I generally treat Larnstings as having access to a wide range of Movement magic that goes beyond the limits of Orlanth etc. Probably just giving them access to any Movement/Change rune magic they want is a good call, and relating the shapechanging magic that is now associated with Mastakos to Sartars magic is useful. Its not a perfect system, but it will probably work well enough for campaign. 

It is worth remembering that there are many Illumination schools that may not know much about how to teach Illumination. Obviously the Nysalorans do, but I tend to think that groups like the Larnstings and Imarjans may not - they know how to become Illuminated via heroquest or other difficult and traumatic magics, but they usually don't know how to communicated it easily via words. Even the Lunars aren't very good at teaching Illumination themselves, which is why they sponsor Nysaloran schools. 

Revealed Mythologies talks about Austerities as a classic mystic magic. I'm not sure the Larnstings themselves do this, but its useful for thinking of how some mystics practice magic. It is basically taking on Gifts and Geases, like Humakt or Yelmalio. Then, because you are Illuminated, ignoring the Geases when it gets in your way. For PCs we sort of need a bit more rules than that to stop it getting out of hand, but that works pretty well for NPCs - just give them a few special magic skills or permanent Rune spells etc, and a few weird practices they follow most of the time but ignore when its inconvenient. A Larnsting might have a permanent movement blessing, for example, or mastery of Dodge, or heightened DEX, in addition to their normal magic. 

 

[Darius West]

On 12/18/2018 at 7:11 PM, davecake said:

Generally speaking, active Mystic magic is really other forms of magic, only with all the rules broken where they inconvenience the Mystics (who, as Illuminates, can break the rules). The mystic magic itself is rules wise, more or less something very much like Illumination, not that powerful on its own. 

One of the few things I like about the HQ rules is the mysticism.  It manages to break away from the straight-jacket of Nysalor Illumination as the only working model.  I cannot see, for example, how Dragon magic has anything to do with illumination, and yet apparently it does, because when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.  As if there are no other forms of mysticism?  I mean, seriously, there are loads of Earth traditions that fall into the definition of mysticism, and none of them really have much to do with each other.  For example, Christian mysticism has almost nothing to do with Hindu mysticism, sharing neither aim, nor method, nor pantheon, nor philosophy.  Some traditions have superficial similarities, but when you begin to dig, they are all very different.  They are all seeking a certain unity, but that is where the similarities end, as "Unity with what exactly?" is the point of divergence.  To say that this is a "common human experience" is not borne out by anthropology.  Sorry about the critique, but I have been involved in Buddhism, and I have always found Nysalor and Illumination to have been a pretty disrespectful treatment of Buddhist ideas.

[Richard S.]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

I cannot see, for example, how Dragon magic has anything to do with illumination, and yet apparently it does

IMG, Draconic Consciousness is a form of Illumination gained through cultivating a connection to the Dragonewt Rune. It grants many of the same powers as Nyaslorian Illumination, and at least partially shares the concept of "we are all us", but rather than postulating that everything came from Chaos, the Dragons say that everything, including Chaos, is part of the dream of Ouroboros. Draconic Consciousness is the recognition that everything is just the dream of a dragon and that the purpose of life is escaping the dream and rejoining with Ouroboros, therefore you can learn to shape the dream around yourself and ignore its illusory restrictions by virtue of your position as a fragment of the dreamer.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

As if there are no other forms of mysticism?

I believe there are any number of forms, Nysalor Illumination and Draconic mysticism being two examples.  But its the game mechanism that functions similarly as all of these are routes to free consciousness from the illusionary shackles of the world.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I believe there are any number of forms, Nysalor Illumination and Draconic mysticism being two examples.  But its the game mechanism that functions similarly as all of these are routes to free consciousness from the illusionary shackles of the world.

Interestingly, the Puppeteers have a method that's seemingly rooted in the Illusion rune itself. I suppose sufficient mastery of Illusion 'proves' that all existence or consciousness is illusion as well.

Edit: Go to too many puppet and prestidigitation shows and *you too* will become an illuminate!

Edited December 20, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[soltakss]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:21 AM, Darius West said:

So we can agree (I hope)

Ha!

[Darius West]

On 12/20/2018 at 9:27 AM, Richard S. said:

IMG, Draconic Consciousness is a form of Illumination gained through cultivating a connection to the Dragonewt Rune. It grants many of the same powers as Nyaslorian Illumination, and at least partially shares the concept of "we are all us", but rather than postulating that everything came from Chaos, the Dragons say that everything, including Chaos, is part of the dream of Ouroboros. Draconic Consciousness is the recognition that everything is just the dream of a dragon and that the purpose of life is escaping the dream and rejoining with Ouroboros, therefore you can learn to shape the dream around yourself and ignore its illusory restrictions by virtue of your position as a fragment of the dreamer.

Yeah, except that unlike all the other forms of illumination, Draconic magic actually has a tangible physical effect, in that it turns you into a dragon or a wrym.  Apart from messing with your head, making you undetectable to spirit beings and deities, and making you love chaos, other forms of illumination seem to lack that practical dimension... well, except those that allow for refutations, which is sort of like a dispel reality spell.

On 12/20/2018 at 12:37 PM, jajagappa said:

I believe there are any number of forms, Nysalor Illumination and Draconic mysticism being two examples.  But its the game mechanism that functions similarly as all of these are routes to free consciousness from the illusionary shackles of the world.

And here the problem emerges.  In religious traditions in our world (not Glorantha), the various mystical traditions only superficially seem to be aiming at the same notion of unity.  Dig a little deeper and the difference in philosophy and perceived end states vary wildly.  For example, consider the following mystical traditions and ideas; the Hindu Atman, Buddhist Nirvana, and Sufic Gnosis all sound like they might be the same thing, and they all represent superficially similar idea, but they actually have nothing to do with each other.  For extra points, you can take a punt at explaining what the differences are.  

Back to Glorantha, I understand that sevening is a bit more involved and sounds like it tries to thrash out matters for illuminates in a way that puts them on a similar philosophical footing within the Lunar way, but at a certain level, it may well be more a form of spiritual propaganda that hypnotizes and subtly controls the illuminates in a fashion that is too overtly insidious for either George Orwell or Gautama Buddha to have come up with on their own, but embraces elements of the worst fears of both.

On 12/20/2018 at 2:18 PM, jeffjerwin said:

Interestingly, the Puppeteers have a method that's seemingly rooted in the Illusion rune itself. I suppose sufficient mastery of Illusion 'proves' that all existence or consciousness is illusion as well.  Edit: Go to too many puppet and prestidigitation shows and *you too* will become an illuminate!

LOL are you insinuating that those Donandar cultists are all illuminates?  No wonder the Uroxi never sense chaos at their productions!  Kill them all, Arkat will know his own.

[jeffjerwin]

52 minutes ago, Darius West said:

LOL are you insinuating that those Donandar cultists are all illuminates?  No wonder the Uroxi never sense chaos at their productions!  Kill them all, Arkat will know his own.

They are Illuminated (or at least their leadership is), but I doubt they call themselves that. Sartar was one of them, along with a Larnsting, so you may want to hold your axe...

It's your call, but the Puppeteers are more in the service of Disorder than Chaos, the Uroxi may find them impossible to lay hands on. Too similar to themselves. They are also friends with Kyger Litor... and she doesn't have much truck with Chaos.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Apart from messing with your head, making you undetectable to spirit beings and deities, and making you love chaos, other forms of illumination seem to lack that practical dimension...

Illumination doesn't make you love chaos. There are plenty of Arkati chaos-fighters. I hadn't come across undetectability to spirits either, although it traditionally does remove the threat of spirits of reprisal. I see that more as an aspect of the freedom from cult rules though. They can't detect your errant behaviour, rather than you yourself.

[Richard S.]

Relevant: http://glorantha.tumblr.com/post/98304095073/tell-us-of-the-various-styles-of-illumination

It looks to me like the end state of Illumination is mostly the same, the process of getting there is just different.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Richard S.

[Oracle]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Relevant: http://glorantha.tumblr.com/post/98304095073/tell-us-of-the-various-styles-of-illumination

It looks to me like the end state of Illumination is mostly the same, the process of getting there is just different.

That was always my point of view too.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

looks to me like the end state of Illumination is mostly the same, the process of getting there is just different.

The end goal may be quite different. Nenduren's Stillness meditations sought unity or at least contact with Atrilith, the One, whereas Mashunasan's meditations went beyond, to the Void. Larn Hasamador achieved Nothing.

EWF schools acquired draconic features before ascending through utuma (at least that's what Obduran did, the one proven True Dragon that came out of the EWF experiment). Arkati and Nysaloreans grow a Third Eye.

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Relevant: http://glorantha.tumblr.com/post/98304095073/tell-us-of-the-various-styles-of-illumination

It looks to me like the end state of Illumination is mostly the same, the process of getting there is just different.

Here is an interesting point that bears out what I was saying (paragraph 10):

"The religious paths that the God Learners called mysticism can also lead to a state similar to Illumination. Practised predominantly by dragonewts and the Kralorelans, mystic beliefs teach that reality is an illusion that must be overcome to achieve enlightenment. Mystics typically gain great powers from progressing along the paths of enlightenment, but most lose the desire to use them, as any application of power further enmeshes them in the material world."

A state similar to illumination is not the same as illumination.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Here is an interesting point that bears out what I was saying (paragraph 10):

"The religious paths that the God Learners called mysticism can also lead to a state similar to Illumination. Practised predominantly by dragonewts and the Kralorelans, mystic beliefs teach that reality is an illusion that must be overcome to achieve enlightenment. Mystics typically gain great powers from progressing along the paths of enlightenment, but most lose the desire to use them, as any application of power further enmeshes them in the material world."

A state similar to illumination is not the same as illumination.

Interesting. Illumination is probably an important step in the process though, since, to put it as plainly as possible, illumination is the realization that everything is the same. Lunar illuminates think that everything is from chaos, and eastern mystics believe that its all an illusion. Larnstings could believe that everything is always changing, Stormwalkers/Orlanth mystics probably believe that everything is part of Orlanth's breath, and western mystics may think that everything is just energies operating under the same basic principles.

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Interesting. Illumination is probably an important step in the process though, since, to put it as plainly as possible, illumination is the realization that everything is the same. Lunar illuminates think that everything is from chaos, and eastern mystics believe that its all an illusion. Larnstings could believe that everything is always changing, Stormwalkers/Orlanth mystics probably believe that everything is part of Orlanth's breath, and western mystics may think that everything is just energies operating under the same basic principles.

I am inclined to see Lunar Illumination as a direct 1:1 correlation with Nysalori illumination, with some state controls and additions added on.  I doubt they see everything as being from chaos, but rather that they understand that Chaos is an integral part of Glorantha's creation, and that while most chaos is malignant, that isn't necessarily the only way chaos can be.  This of course is the sort of thinking that will eventually make Ralzakark the Red Emperor.

Larnstings are all about change, true, but liberation is also a powerful feature.  As a result of the fact that they aren't all about transcendence and refutation, they are probably a much more immanent philosophy, dedicated to real world transformation.  The immanent schools see lines between the spiritual and the physical as conceptual fetters to be overcome.

While focus on breath is a good Orlanthi mystical practice, I am inclined to think that Orlanthi mysticism begins when after Orlanth's initiation he is told that a dragon is following him, and reaches its culmination in the EWF (The moral of the story being, that one shouldn't place too much trust in a group of suicidal lizards, regardless of how profound they seem).  We also know that the "magician" Orlaront Dragonfriend of Argrath's retinue is certainly a mystic of the Dragonewt school variety, as a dragon magician is a mystic by definition, there being no other form of Dragon magic.  I think, as Draconic mysticism allows for real world transformation that it too is immanent.  This is not to be confused with Immanent Mastery however, who are a rather philosophically aberrant sect of Dragon Hsunchen the God Learners came up with and only have a weird veneer of mysticism.

Kralorelan mystics are very heavily influenced by Draconic mysticism too.  Vithelans a lot less so, and when you speak of Eastern mystics who think everything is an illusion, it is the Vith schools of mysticism that teach this.

As to Western Mystics, they are utterly devoted to the idea of achieving closer and closer henosis with the Invisible God.  The insights they gain translate them increasingly onto the Saint Plane, and closer to their deity, who is the ultimate.  A good example of this is Irensavalism.

It is also worth pointing out that Arkati are also illuminates, but they reject the initial illuminated revelation that Chaos isn't evil.  Instead they see that while chaos may have been part of the creation of the world, it was tainted by the Unholy Trio and is now inimical to the world.  Yes, there may be a few scattered individual chaos creatures that aren't evil, such as the Cleansed One of the Zola Fel cult, and the Wild Healer of the Rockwoods (who likely spectacularly failed a Malia hero quest), but when you meet chaos, you will rapidly know the truth.  Chaos cannot be reasoned with, and like a tumor in the world, it must be excised. It is likely that the Arkati also swear oaths on death deities that will bind them to their oaths in place of spirits of retribution.  Arkati also act as dangerous "park rangers" on the Hero Plane for people who get God Learner-ish and want to destroy the spiritual ecology of Glorantha.  They generally loom about in the background shadows of the HQ and only reveal themselves when heroquesters do naughty things.  Mularik Iron Eye is an Arkati Sorcerer and a companion of Argrath. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Darius West

[jeffjerwin]

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Mularik Iron Eye is an Arkati Sorcerer and a companion of Argrath. 

Interesting that Mularik gets ganked eventually and conveniently for Argrath. But he claims to be a descendant of Arkat, which might not be quite the same as being a true follower of Arkat.

BTW, Darius, I know that you hate chaos, but it's doubtful that things were ever meant to be that cut and dried in Greg's Glorantha (though they can be that way in your Glorantha). The Red Moon can certainly be reasoned with. So could Nysalor. We don't even know what happened in the battle between Nysalor and Arkat, but it may not have turned out the way you think.

[Joerg]

Discussion of mystic paths usually get too involved and scholarly for the RuneQuest side of the forum, which are supposed to give rather quick and easy answers useful in the middle of play.

We haven't seen much of an actual description of Argrath's warlocks yet - in fact, while we have seen a couple of portraits of his companions in the Glorantha sourcebook, we have few ideas of their special powers, and how these manifest om a game situation.

20 hours ago, Darius West said:

Kralorelan mystics are very heavily influenced by Draconic mysticism too.  Vithelans a lot less so, and when you speak of Eastern mystics who think everything is an illusion, it is the Vith schools of mysticism that teach this.

The eastern schools of mysticism have many different approaches. While we know that Vith himself was one of the privileged disciples of Oorduren, the High God of Mystic Insight, he was just one of several.

The decisive mystic of the Gods War, the one to deal with the most of the antigod leaders, was Mashunasan, whose method was indeed Unrealization and whose transcendent principle to meditate on was the Void, but there were others, too. Given the results that Mashunasan obviously achieved against Keltari and Avanapdur, he and his Liberating Bolt were popular with the martial artists (i.e. followers of dedicated fighting styles using all manner of weaponry) who did the footwork and dealt with the servants of the great antigod leaders.

This Liberating Bolt is a power or expression(aspect of Orlanth, too.

The Book of Heortling Mythology paragraph on this is a bit myterious, as befits a mystical power (p.59):

Quote

The  mightiest  weapon  is  Orlanth’s  great  Liberating  Bolt.  This  weapon  has  never  been  mastered  by  any  other  god or goddess – not even by the Thunder Brothers.  The Liberating Bolt is the irresistible power of Orlanth’s justice and kingship. It is the Immolater that liberates the pious and  destroys  all  else.    It  liberated  Vingkot,  Heort,  Rastalulf,  Vargast, and Sartar. It destroyed Obduran and Ingolf. Only  Vingkot and Harmast survived the Liberating Bolt and they  were transformed by the experience. 

Now read Argrath's Arrival in Boldhome (e.g. hardcover King of Sartar p.128f)

Quote

Argrath stood tall, holding aloft his sacred sword, and prayed aloud to Orlanth for help and aid, and to witness his worthiness to be king. Clouds gathered quickly overhead, though elsewhere the sky was clear, until the whole city was dark, and a hard wind blew like a cyclone upon the man. Then the silent place, at the center, widened quickly and left them all clear, with the air green. And lightning struck, as big as a dragon’s neck, striking the brazier so bright that no one could see except in afterimages, and so loud that no one could hear except what the immortals said. And the Flame of Sartar that leapt forth was twenty feet high, and as white hot as iron from the Gustbran’s magical forge.

One can speculate a bit about what was necessary to re-light Sartar's flame.

According to the Heortling Mythology text I quoted, the transformation of Sartar from human king to the guardian deity of his country, with the physical manifestation residing in the flame in the brazier, already was that Liberation Bolt.

Teenage Jar-eel and her cotery of Lunar magicians (quite likely led by Tatius) quested and struggled mightily in 1602 to quench the Flame of Sartar after having overcome the human defenders of Boldhome, and succeeded in a contest of mystical energies.

But then, Jar-eel herself may have provided one of the ingredients to Argrath's success in 1627 when she dismembered Belintar and let the Spirit of Freedom escape. (Which might be named the Harshax - Belintar was addressed as Lord of the Harshax as one of his titles, IIRC.) Sartar's self-immolation succeeded despite the chaining of this spirit, but after Belintar's dismemberment, the rules had changed.

Another possible contributing factor might lie in two rather overlooked companions of Argrath, Vailor Blue Fox and his bodyguard Hal-Yan Monsterkiller. If they traveled the East Isles, fighting monsters there (with the Andinni rather at large, there should have been no shortage of those), and probably observing martial artists employing this power against their antigod foes.

Whatever else happened, Argrath transmuted Sartar's flame to a beacon of Liberation.

 

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

We haven't seen much of an actual description of Argrath's warlocks yet - in fact, while we have seen a couple of portraits of his companions in the Glorantha sourcebook, we have few ideas of their special powers, and how these manifest om a game situation.

I would disagree. We don't have full game rules, but in the GSB pg 211-212, we have quite  detailed description of how warlock magic manifests in a game situation. 

• it is based around meditative techniques
• a warlock can be part of almost any magical tradition
• it includes Illumination or draconic Illumination as a crucial part of the magic
• they create a wyter for the group
• they discorporate, leaving their bodies, and are in magical communication with the wyter
• the wyter travels a significant distance from the location of the magicians bodies, up to 30 km
• the wyter is accompanied by the discorporate souls of the magicians. 

While every regiment is unique, I think three things are relatively clear. The magic of warlocks is collective, not individual - we don't need to concern ourselves with the additional powers that warlocks may have, beyond those we associate with mysticism/Illumination, and there is enough variance there as to include almost every known mystic tradition somewhere. The other powers and traditions of warlocks differ very radically, so as to have no defining powers. And while we might not have every set of rules we might want for a full simulation of the entire warlock experience, we do know a fair bit about wyters and we have the Discorporation spell, add a Mind Link and a bit of Extension and we have a pretty good idea what being involved in a unit of the SMU is going to be like in game terms. 

I certainly feel I have enough information for either being attacked by a unit of the SMU, or a PC warlock, without feeling I was having to hand wave the combat much. 

 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

I would disagree. We don't have full game rules, but in the GSB pg 211-212, we have quite  detailed description of how warlock magic manifests in a game situation. 

• it is based around meditative techniques
• a warlock can be part of almost any magical tradition
• it includes Illumination or draconic Illumination as a crucial part of the magic
• they create a wyter for the group
• they discorporate, leaving their bodies, and are in magical communication with the wyter
• the wyter travels a significant distance from the location of the magicians bodies, up to 30 km
• the wyter is accompanied by the discorporate souls of the magicians. 

In short, it resembles the Temple of the Thirty in Gemmell's Drenai saga, as I suggested it would ages ago when discussing this on the digest.

Illumination appears to be helpful, but not exactly required - Vasana, Yanioth and Vishi aren't picked out as enlightened in any way, and Vishi is doing exactly the shamanic stuff he had been trained for while the sisters rely on brute presence.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

While every regiment is unique, I think three things are relatively clear. The magic of warlocks is collective, not individual - we don't need to concern ourselves with the additional powers that warlocks may have, beyond those we associate with mysticism/Illumination, and there is enough variance there as to include almost every known mystic tradition somewhere. The other powers and traditions of warlocks differ very radically, so as to have no defining powers. And while we might not have every set of rules we might want for a full simulation of the entire warlock experience, we do know a fair bit about wyters and we have the Discorporation spell, add a Mind Link and a bit of Extension and we have a pretty good idea what being involved in a unit of the SMU is going to be like in game terms. 

Now if we had a couple of Warlocks displaying these spells in their stats, I wouldn't have complained.

Bur then these requirements sort of contradict the claim that they come from whichever magical tradition.

Their magical communion for instance might be a lot more permanent than just for the duration of the battle, which would alter their psychology and behavior significantly. Why not give them something similar to the forest song of the aldryami? It could be a secondary skill latched onto their primary magical ability score, or to their passion loyalty to unit.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

I certainly feel I have enough information for either being attacked by a unit of the SMU, or a PC warlock, without feeling I was having to hand wave the combat much. 

Being on the receiving side of a regimental spirit attack would still keep me somewhat adrift in narrating. Finding the common ground for descriptions of reactions tp psychedelic effects might be easier after sharing a psychedelic experience, so what movie or piece of music would be a good shared experience if you shy away from shared chemical exposure? Lucy in the Sky from Yellow Submarine?