A question about dragons

[Greville]

Hi,

I'm pretty new to Glorantha and have a couple of questions about how people see Gloranthan dragons. I love the difference between true dragons and dream dragons, although it took me a while to get my head around.

What kind of dragon does a dragonnewt turn into? The book mentions ancestral dragons, but isn't clear if they are like dream dragons or not. Either way it's a good thing that they are rare.

I'm planning on them being like dream dragons for now, but am open to any interesting ideas.

Secondly, if dream dragons spring from the subconscious of a true dragon does that mean there can only be one at a time per true dragon? I like the idea of dream dragons being born of errant thoughts and desires, but then be their own beings out in the world.

Do a dragon's dreams always form into dragons? What other creatures are spawned by the sleeping dragon?

To be honest it feels like there are no right or wrong answers here, I'll go away and ponder a bit.

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Greville said:

What kind of dragon does a dragonnewt turn into? The book mentions ancestral dragons, but isn't clear if they are like dream dragons or not. Either way it's a good thing that they are rare.

Dragonewts hope to turn into True Dragons.  Ancestral Dragons (also known as Elder Dragons) are the next level beyond.

1 hour ago, Greville said:

Secondly, if dream dragons spring from the subconscious of a true dragon does that mean there can only be one at a time per true dragon? I like the idea of dream dragons being born of errant thoughts and desires, but then be their own beings out in the world.

There's considerably more dream dragons then there are true dragons.  IMO Dragons are so smart that can multiple dreams at the same time.

 

[Kloster]

37 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Dragonewts hope to turn into True Dragons.  Ancestral Dragons (also known as Elder Dragons) are the next level beyond.

There's considerably more dream dragons then there are true dragons.  IMO Dragons are so smart that can multiple dreams at the same time.

 

Let's call it dream multitasking.

Kloster

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Greville said:

Hi,

I'm pretty new to Glorantha and have a couple of questions about how people see Gloranthan dragons. I love the difference between true dragons and dream dragons, although it took me a while to get my head around.

What kind of dragon does a dragonnewt turn into? The book mentions ancestral dragons, but isn't clear if they are like dream dragons or not. Either way it's a good thing that they are rare.

I'm planning on them being like dream dragons for now, but am open to any interesting ideas.

Secondly, if dream dragons spring from the subconscious of a true dragon does that mean there can only be one at a time per true dragon? I like the idea of dream dragons being born of errant thoughts and desires, but then be their own beings out in the world.

Do a dragon's dreams always form into dragons? What other creatures are spawned by the sleeping dragon?

To be honest it feels like there are no right or wrong answers here, I'll go away and ponder a bit.

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

One way of looking at dragonewts is that with the exception of the Inhuman King, all of the dragonewts are failures. They are neonate dragons who failed to ascend during the God Time. Within Time, a handful of dragonewts at best have ascended Ito True Dragonhood.

A dream dragon springs from the subconscious of a True Dragon. They are self-aware and sentient. Many deny that they are a "dream," others acknowledge they are dream of more powerful entities but hold that the same is true for the rest of the cosmos. They think, they have will and passions, and are as much "self-contained egos" as ourselves. 

Whenever I have a dream dragon in a scenario I make sure the players have a chance to communicate with the dragon, even while fighting it. Otherwise a great roleplaying opportunity is lost - when else can you get the players to discuss philosophical/psychological matters with a giant lizard trying to kill them?

[Richard S.]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:19 AM, Greville said:

Hi,

I'm pretty new to Glorantha and have a couple of questions about how people see Gloranthan dragons. I love the difference between true dragons and dream dragons, although it took me a while to get my head around.

What kind of dragon does a dragonnewt turn into? The book mentions ancestral dragons, but isn't clear if they are like dream dragons or not. Either way it's a good thing that they are rare.

I'm planning on them being like dream dragons for now, but am open to any interesting ideas.

Secondly, if dream dragons spring from the subconscious of a true dragon does that mean there can only be one at a time per true dragon? I like the idea of dream dragons being born of errant thoughts and desires, but then be their own beings out in the world.

Do a dragon's dreams always form into dragons? What other creatures are spawned by the sleeping dragon?

To be honest it feels like there are no right or wrong answers here, I'll go away and ponder a bit.

What are your thoughts?

Dragonewts presumably turn into True Dragons after completing their life cycle (successfully experiencing each caste). The Ancestral Dragons were the children/dreams of the Cosmic Dragon, helped create Glorantha, and spawned the True Dragons. While even true dragons are on similar power levels to gods, the Grand Ancestral Dragons are levels far beyond that. However the "ancestors" which Dragonewts have a duty towards as stated in the Bestiary are not necessarily the GADs, rather it is all of Dragonkind from which the Dragonewt can trade it's descent, including True Dragons, GADs, the Cosmic Dragon, and even Ouroboros itself (which may not count as it's viewed as more of a concept/idea/cosmic truth than a living being).

On dragon's dreams, I don't believe we have non-DDs created by True Dragons, but IMG (In My Glorantha) the entire world, including the Cosmic Dragon and Chaos, is the dream of the ur-dragon Ouroboros, and everything within the dream is dreams of lesser and lesser dreams until you reach mortals, whose dreams have no permanence. Those who have realized the truth of the dream, including Dragonewts and True Dragons, can draw closer to the dreamer and dream the world to fit its idea of perfection, which results in things like dream dragons and the weirdness of the EWF. (This is all non-canon and just my ideas, YGMV.)

And you're partially correct. When you're dealing with dragons, everything is both correct and incorrect! (At least until the publishers give us some better material but that's never gonna happen.)

Edited December 20, 2018 by Richard S.

[Greville]

27 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

And you're partially correct. When you're dealing with dragons, everything is both correct and incorrect! (At least until the publishers give us some better material but that's never gonna happen.) 

To be honest I like the ambiguity. It lets me try out different ideas... 

[Richard S.]

16 minutes ago, Greville said:

To be honest I like the ambiguity. It lets me try out different ideas... 

Yeah, it's probably for the best

[soltakss]

On 12/19/2018 at 7:19 AM, Greville said:

What kind of dragon does a dragonnewt turn into? The book mentions ancestral dragons, but isn't clear if they are like dream dragons or not. Either way it's a good thing that they are rare.

If a Dragonewt uses Dragon magic to turn into a Dragon, then it's a Dream Dragon.

However, if a Dragonewt becomes enlightened enough to become a Dragon then it is reborn as a True Dragon.

In my Glorantha, the Inhuman King dreams as a Dream Dragon, as do some of the Full Priests.

On 12/19/2018 at 7:19 AM, Greville said:

Secondly, if dream dragons spring from the subconscious of a true dragon does that mean there can only be one at a time per true dragon? I like the idea of dream dragons being born of errant thoughts and desires, but then be their own beings out in the world.

Yes, I would say that a True Dragon only has one dream at a time.

A True Dragon who is awake might even have a daydream and spawn a Dream Dragon.

In my Glorantha, some True Dragons produce a different Dream Dragon every time the dream, but others dream of the same Dream Dragon.

On 12/19/2018 at 7:19 AM, Greville said:

Do a dragon's dreams always form into dragons? What other creatures are spawned by the sleeping dragon?

Probably not. 

A Nightmare, if True Dragons can have nightmares, might spawn another draconic creature.

I'd say that a True Dragon could dream of anything, really.

On 12/19/2018 at 7:19 AM, Greville said:

To be honest it feels like there are no right or wrong answers here, I'll go away and ponder a bit.

Exactly right. It's whatever you feel is cool and works in your game.

[Joerg]

Wyverns are said to be the result of wet dreams / sexual dreams of True Dragons. Why that leaves them without arms is beyond my understanding - some form of draconic bondage?

I would think that a dream dragon retains its individual existence as long as the dreaming dragon lets it go about its business. That gives a fair number of dream dragons that might emerge from a single True Dragon.

Re-absorbing a Dream Dragon may occur if that Dream Dragon has undergone a great insight or similar, performing an utuma.

Spawning a Dream Dragon should put no great stress on the abilities of a dragon, whether asleep/meditating or whether actively engaged with its surroundings.

As mentioned in the question whether Mostal ever bound a dragon, I see a certain potential in using a dream dragon to create an uplink to the True Dragon, and with suitable magics some high amounts of magical damage might become applicable.

 

Thinking about draconic nightmares is something I prefer to avoid. If Ingolf Dragonfriend's path to draconic enlightenment is somehow related to the places a True Dragon visits, then they don't need to dream such trauma up, they can just remember having been there.

These draconic otherworlds are highly corrosive for entities with too strong attachment to this world (or some of the Otherworlds). They can apparently be entered and survived after having developed some dragon powers like partial body transformation (as per the warrior and higher dragonewt magics).

Apparently, the short cut paths of the Immanent Masters or other (forgotten) Third Council Short Cut methods granted a similar invulnerability to these places as did the true (and much slower) path of draconic enlightenment followed by Obduran and Ingolf.