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Urox and Lunars

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Uroxi can sense chaos, and have magic against chaos. So how does this apply to Lunar deities? Most Lunars are not, obviously, tainted by chaos. The major Lunar cult strictures heavily discourage using chaotic magic. But that connection to chaos is still there. The Lunar cults are sort of chaos-adjacent--they have the ability to convert a rune into chaos, after all. So what does an Uroxi sense around Lunar holy places and artifacts? Do they feel chaotic? 

One reason I'm asking is my players are in a situation where they're trying to steal a relic of Yara Aranis from a Lunar temple. I need to figure out what my Uroxi player senses and how applicable his Eternal Battle rune might be toward the cults he's encountering. 

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The Uroxi would feel some distant sensation of chaos in the presence of a Lunar holy place or artifact (I feel chaos in the area) but not a direct sensation of chaos (this is chaos).  

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Pavis GTA, page 410 provides the guidelines for this:

Quote

 

Lunars, Chaos, and Enemies

It has been stated that most cults dislike, hate, or fear chaos, but that the Lunar religion includes the unthinkable things within its worship and thereby earns the enmity of the world. The effect of this needs consideration.

Knowing that the Lunars embrace chaos and seeing that the vast majority of them display no sign of it or no liking for it either, causes most outlanders to ignore the chaos problem. In a world of practicality, philosophy falls by the wayside.

However some circumstances will always provoke recognition of the Lunars as embracers of chaos and this will always force some reaction. Lunars who visibly use or openly show Chaos features, runes, spirits, charms and spells will provoke reaction. Heroes with the Eternal Battle Rune  the have the ability to feel the effects of unseen Chaos through the Pain of Chaos (Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, page 177), and so will blur this distinction and will react more often.

 

and then Sartar: KoH, page 177

Quote

 

The Pain of Chaos

Although the wounds heal, their pain remains. Whenever any Chaos entity comes within the vicinity of a Bullman, the pain returns and alerts him to the presence of Chaos. The pain is generally greater for more powerful or tainted entities, but does not inform the worshipper of the location or nature of the entity. Some Uroxi experience the pain of Chaos in other ways, perhaps reflecting hidden scars — as a foul odor, an ache in their head or bones, or an unnatural rage. The stronger the Bullman is with the Eternal Battle Rune, the more effective and all-consuming this ability is.

 

I would suggest that only cultists whose god has the chaos rune actually detect chaotic. So the only real problem is the Red Goddess as she alone has the chaos rune. If she has a shrine in the Yara aranis temple then that's the trigger. 

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The magic that extends the Glowline has been described as chaotic at times, which makes Temples of the Reaching Moon possibly quite a headache for those bullies. The Glowline effect in itself isn't necessarily chaotic, though. It is a shift in realities.

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What's tricky about the Lunars is that most of their openly Chaotic members are also going to be Illuminated. 

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40 minutes ago, JonL said:

What's tricky about the Lunars is that most of their openly Chaotic members are also going to be Illuminated. 

That's pretty much required. Illumination ameliorates the worst aspects of chaos, like the nihilistic despair.

However monsters like the Bat are perhaps not technically illuminated.

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7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Pavis GTA, page 410 provides the guidelines for this:

and then Sartar: KoH, page 177

I would suggest that only cultists whose god has the chaos rune actually detect chaotic. So the only real problem is the Red Goddess as she alone has the chaos rune. If she has a shrine in the Yara aranis temple then that's the trigger. 

David, many thanks! I had missed the section in P:GTA. That is basically what I needed. When my Uroxi skulked around the 7 Mothers Temple in Swenstown, I told he 'felt itchy', which seemed like reasonable temporizing as I figured things out. And it works well enough. 

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I don't see how the Stormbull guard around the Block would be possible without bulls having at least some discretion about whether to charge chaotic foes, otherwise all the block guards would have been killed resisting the Lunar incursion.

I mean imagine a Lunar raid for truthstone around the block, if Bulls couldn't behave strategically the raid would start by luring out all the Stormbull guards by driving a herd of obvious chaotics past the Block, then ambushing them and cutting them down with a barrage of long range missile weapons after they go berserk. The bulls might have taken heavy casualties the first time this was attempted, but if they kept falling for this trick every time there would be none left.

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18 minutes ago, EricW said:

I don't see how the Stormbull guard around the Block would be possible without bulls having at least some discretion about whether to charge chaotic foes, otherwise all the block guards would have been killed resisting the Lunar incursion.

I mean imagine a Lunar raid for truthstone around the block, if Bulls couldn't behave strategically the raid would start by luring out all the Stormbull guards by driving a herd of obvious chaotics past the Block, then ambushing them and cutting them down with a barrage of long range missile weapons after they go berserk. The bulls might have taken heavy casualties the first time this was attempted, but if they kept falling for this trick every time there would be none left.

Overt alliance with Chaos tends to cause problems with Lunar allies like the Sables, and perhaps the Sun Domers, I'd think.

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Does anyone seriously think that Stormbulls trust to their Sense Chaos skill alone?  The Uroxi know about Illuminates and that they use chaos tricks to fool their senses, and hide chaos in plain sight.  Riddlers are the worst of all chaos for this reason for they spread that evil knowledge that dulls and confuses the senses of the Bull.  That is why the Uroxi know that any chaos is all chaos, and that the Lunars therefore are ALL CHAOS for who can say who in their herd is tainted and who is not?  They are all complicit and must all die.

All Uroxi are told of what to expect from the riddlers and those who ask the wrong questions.  These folk will still detect as enemies to spirit spells.  Those who worship the wrong gods are all chaos.  Those who are mutated are chaos, even if they do not sense as chaos.

Nysalor himself carried the Chaos Rune, and he allows chaos to escape detection, but the Uroxi and the Zorak Zorani are working on ways to strip away these evils and uncover the hidden chaos.  They know already of Arkat's secret, and that is why they let his Dark Empire fall.  Many blame the Dragonewts.  Elves too are foul kindling who love chaos all too often.  With the opening, it is now possible to travel to the lands of Pamalt where the paths of innocence lie, and thence into the Nargan Desert, honoring ancient pacts as did the Men and a Half, for the chaos of Vovisbor grows there.  There might the Uroxi learn from the Shamans of the South, the secrets lost in the lands of the Dead God, and return with the knowledge of how to know the innocent from the guilty.  Then let the illuminates tremble, for they have no innocence within them.

Edited by Darius West
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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

That is why the Uroxi know that any chaos is all chaos, and that the Lunars therefore are ALL CHAOS for who can say who in their herd is tainted and who is not?  They are all complicit and must all die.

So any Storm Bulls in Pavis will attack any Lunars walking around there? That's not how it appears to work.

 

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13 minutes ago, Steve said:

So any Storm Bulls in Pavis will attack any Lunars walking around there? That's not how it appears to work.

 

The Bull men know they are chaos, or in the service of chaos, and they bide their time.  While some Uroxi wait for nothing but air to fill their lungs before attacking, others are more cautious.  It is said "Beware a patient Uroxi for you are dealing with a hero".  There are not so many Uroxi in the New Pavis Urox temple, are there?  Most wound up crucified.  Come back in 1625 and see how many Lunars there are when the Whitebull Army arrives.

Edited by Darius West

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10 hours ago, EricW said:

I don't see how the Stormbull guard around the Block would be possible without bulls having at least some discretion about whether to charge chaotic foes, otherwise all the block guards would have been killed resisting the Lunar incursion.

As it says in Sartar KoH, the basic guide to chaos is [does it] use or openly show Chaos features, runes, spirits, charms and spells. I would add, is it one of the races of chaos as well. That's very straight forward. Nearly all lunars will look, act and behave without out triggering this reaction. If you are a lunar and member of the Red Goddess's cult then you will likely openly show chaos runes on your attire, basically just as any other cult member does. You're not going to detect as chaos unless you've done something that uses chaos, However Storm Bulls will react to the presence of the chaos rune.

2 hours ago, Steve said:

So any Storm Bulls in Pavis will attack any Lunars walking around there? That's not how it appears to work.

Exactly. The pain of chaos is going give them a problem around the Red Goddess Temple. It's likely a few have attempted together in and died in the process, but it's likely to be one of the more heavily guarded buildings in New Pavis for a number of reasons.I suspect that the presence of Krasht gives them a bigger problem and more headaches. We know there are 20 initiates of the Red Goddess in Pavis, and at least a few of them will have a taint. Pavis GtA says

Quote

The Storm Bull temple is often closed by the Lunar military government because of violent disturbances, but always reopened.

I see this as a cycle: Storm Bulls gather at the temple for a hoy day, ritual gets out of hand, go on the rampage, get killed, expelled, jailed, temple shuts down for a long time, chaos eventually appears nearby, storm bulls reappears, temple reopens, chaos is dealt with, repeat. Look at what happened in Boldhome to the storm Bull temple there with Orgwaha.

10 hours ago, EricW said:

I mean imagine a Lunar raid for truthstone around the block, if Bulls couldn't behave strategically the raid would start by luring out all the Stormbull guards by driving a herd of obvious chaotics past the Block, then ambushing them and cutting them down with a barrage of long range missile weapons after they go berserk. The bulls might have taken heavy casualties the first time this was attempted, but if they kept falling for this trick every time there would be none left.

The camp at the Block is a holy place for the Storm Bulls and as such was protected from Lunars interference by the Armistice of Prax 1610-1625. The end of your scenario if it happened is - as they are looting the block, a horde of dragonsnails and their broo riders rises out of the marsh and kills them.

The real end of the Lunar chaos in Pavis happens in 1625 at the end of the siege of Pavis. Storm Khan Orgwaha Blue Llama has much to payback and prove against the Lunars after the Boldhome setup. Argrath knows this and has him at his side, it's him and his followers that rid the city of it's chaos temple and followers. They burn the Red Goddess temple down and kill any one associated with. I think it's these Storm Bulls that cause the most damage and killing in the aftermath of the siege. Argrath allows it as it serves a greater purpose.

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

Exactly. The pain of chaos is going give them a problem around the Red Goddess Temple. It's likely a few have attempted together in and died in the process, but it's likely to be one of the more heavily guarded buildings in New Pavis for a number of reasons.I suspect that the presence of Krasht gives them a bigger problem and more headaches. We know there are 20 initiates of the Red Goddess in Pavis, and at least a few of them will have a taint.

Though the temple is in fact dedicated to the Seven Mothers, who are not a Chaotic cult. There's a shrine within to Rufelza, but it's not visible, so Bull initiates are unlikely to be err 'triggered' by the overall temple, I think... outside it, anyway

Now RG initiation is really a Lunar Heartland thing, so those 20 Lunars are almost certainly high-up elite Lunars, surrounded by guards. The real Lunar Chaos nest is in the Governor's Palace...

(This doesn't change much about the narrative, of course)

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On 12/28/2018 at 5:25 AM, Darius West said:

Does anyone seriously think that Stormbulls trust to their Sense Chaos skill alone? 

Have you read the pamphlet that comes with Dorastor? It goes something like "Storm Bulls, Trust your senses" then goes on to say not to believe that Storm Bull can be tricked. All good advice.

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Have you read the pamphlet that comes with Dorastor? It goes something like "Storm Bulls, Trust your senses" then goes on to say not to believe that Storm Bull can be tricked. All good advice.

I always thought that was Lunar propaganda, right?

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It is, but it does make a pretty solid argument.

Edited by Wrestlepig
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20 hours ago, soltakss said:

Have you read the pamphlet that comes with Dorastor? It goes something like "Storm Bulls, Trust your senses" then goes on to say not to believe that Storm Bull can be tricked. All good advice.

As if any Uroxi worth more than spit ever listened to Lunar Propaganda.

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12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

As if any Uroxi worth more than spit ever listened to Lunar Propaganda.

To be fair, I think the real problem with that flyer was that it relied on the Storm Bullies being able to read.

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3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

To be fair, I think the real problem with that flyer was that it relied on the Storm Bullies being able to read.

The whole idea was foolish, true.  Also, if you were a reader, would you truly tell the Uroxi what it said?  Imperial bureaucracy at its best.

9 hours ago, Wrestlepig said:

It is, but it does make a pretty solid argument.

Nonsense, it is merely Lunar cowardice, trying to fool people.  Uroxi will admit that they didn't sense chaos, but they know Lunars worship chaos and may well be illuminates who hide their chaos, so they all have to die.  Any chaos is all chaos.

Edited by Darius West

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