Spirit World and Afterlife

[Sumath]

I really enjoyed the recent thread about the Spirit World, and the idea of travelling through it and finding a spirit that you're seeking. At some point I am definitely going to run a session based around this and I've been looking at spirit world myths that might be relevant. These two Native American stories (https://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheSpiritBride-Algonquin.html), (http://www.kstrom.net/isk/stories/scarpipe.html) about men mourning their dead wives have fantastic roleplaying potential.

I love, love, love the idea of someone setting out to find a lost relative or spouse and crossing over into the Spirit World almost accidentally. Perhaps the landscape and denizens become suddenly weirder, or as in the first story a wise man (shaman) is encountered and helps them cross, but feats of skill are required to survive (paddling against the storm/tempest would be a great way for Orlanthi dead to prove their worth in the afterlife - maybe an Air rune affiliation check?). Or as in the second story, as well as shamanic assistance, they overcome the attentions of other ghosts, and ways are found to disguise their 'living' status in the Spirit World. In one story, the widower learns that he will one day be with his wife again and is happy, In the other he gets the spirits to release his dead wife and return her to the world of the living (along with a sacred item).

I started to think about how this would play out in a Gloranthan context - perhaps by travelling to the Spirit World and (in the second story) contesting the return of a spirit with a psychopomp or community of spirits (in whatever form those take)? But then it struck me - what is the relationship between the Spirit World and the afterlife (heavens, hells, underworld)? Is the Spirit World a limbo or a Purgatory, or something else? Is this consistent across all beliefs (unlikely)? If you can go and find your ancestors in the Spirit World, does this mean they never reach a heaven or hell, or does it mean the Spirit World is an aspect of heaven/hell?

[Pentallion]

That's a good question I've always pondered.  Why is there a spirit world where spirits can be found if the dead are supposed to go to the underworld?  I've wondered if perhaps the spirit world is simply a shamanistic means of interpreting where spirits go and the underworld is the divinistic way of interpreting it, but then I can't account for trolls.

Perhaps someone within Chaosium would care to enlighten?

[Psullie]

not all spirits are destined for the Underworld. Many creatures are ethereal in nature and 'live' in the spirit world 

[soltakss]

Maybe the Spirit World is the Underworld, at least in parts.

I see the Spirit Plane as connecting with all the other Planes, Mundane Plane, Hero plane and God Plane. Once you reach the Inner World then you have accessed the Underworld, or the Sky or wherever else Spirits go to when they die.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Sumath said:

Is the Spirit World a limbo or a Purgatory, or something else?

No, something else.  It is where the spiritual energies of Glorantha exist.  It is coterminous with both the Inner World, the Outer World, the Upper World, and the Underworld as @soltakss notes.  Spirits infuse life everywhere (rocks, trees, animals, humans & most Elder Races, rivers and seas, etc.).  It has its own weird topology which is not based on anything in the Mundane World though.  So you could be walking through the Colymar Wilds, cross over into the Spirit World, and for awhile it looks the same.  But then you find yourself diverging perhaps into Velhara's Endless Wild, from which you might find yourself at the Root of Life, or possibly in the Nightwood (which is also in the Underworld).  

6 hours ago, Sumath said:

I love, love, love the idea of someone setting out to find a lost relative or spouse and crossing over into the Spirit World almost accidentally.

Yes, certainly could occur at places where the borders are "thin".

I did this in a recent HQG game where the heroes escaped Lunar pursuit by venturing into Colymar's Wilds, but then found themselves in Velhara's domain (effectively in the Spirit Plane) where they had to win a contest to escape (and even that was rather difficult) and end up back near the Nymie River on the other side of the Wilds.

 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

That's a good question I've always pondered.  Why is there a spirit world where spirits can be found if the dead are supposed to go to the underworld?  I've wondered if perhaps the spirit world is simply a shamanistic means of interpreting where spirits go and the underworld is the divinistic way of interpreting it, but then I can't account for trolls.

Perhaps someone within Chaosium would care to enlighten?

The answer lies in real world shamanism and religion. Many cultures have a three world spirit world or at least acknowledge the existence of them even if they don’t access them. Shamanism has simplistically the Middle world, which is the spirit world of our world that overlays it. Confusingly it’s named the other way round in Glorantha where the real world is the middle world and the spirit world overlays that. Spirits of the middle world are nature spirits, those that don’t know they are dead (ghosts), and the spirit presence of all the things in the world. Then there is the upper world, a spirit world called so as the means of accessing it is up. Some real world cultures the upper world does actually contain the sky, sun, moon and planets, even space. But may be somewhere else entirely. The spirits of the upper world are often sources of knowledge and teachers. The lower world works the same way, is accessed by going down, but doesn’t have to be inside in the ground, but in some cultures is. The spirits of the lower world are a source of power. Now transpose that outline to some religions. Heaven, is by some equated to the upper world, the lower world is the underworld or hell.

when you die in Glorantha your spirit/soul travels the path of the dead, ends up at the court of judgement and Daka Fal sends you to the right afterlife. Many assume that the courts of judgement are in the underworld, but I don’t think it’s ever been said where. There’s an explanation of this is the upcoming gods of Glorantha book. The dead are in their own god’s afterlife. Subjectively it may be called a heaven or hell. Trolls spirits will go to the appropriate underworld, some would call it Hell. The spirits of yelm cultists will go to the sky world, lunar dead to the spirit world or the moon. Normally you get to stay in your afterlife until you get reborn. It’s quite a straightforward structure if you are aware of earthly equivalents.

[Sumath]

Thanks for the answers, everyone, that's made things a lot clearer.

So the Spirit World exists alongside all other parts of Glorantha, and maps to them in a way, but not in any absolute or permanent sense - it has its own topography, which can change, but it will always share important locations where the veil between the Middle World and the Spirit World is weakened, either because of historic/mythological events, or because of their importance to gods, people, or spirits.

There also seems to be a suggestion that the environment of the Spirit World is partly subjective, and perceived differently by each spirit (or type of spirit). Creatively, that provides a lot of freedom to establish any kind of environment or encounter a GM wants to come up with.

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Sumath said:

Creatively, that provides a lot of freedom to establish any kind of environment or encounter a GM wants to come up with.

Yes! 😉