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Tywyll

Not sure how I feel...

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So I got RQG for xmas and there are a few things I'm not sure I'm sold on...

1) Rune Points/Divine Magic tied to the seasons rather than recovery via prayer

2) Experience rolls/training tied to seasons

3) Cha limits on Divine Magic (yes, I know this is a balance to more flexible divine magic, but still)

4) Dodge 'death lottery' (returning to the old version of Dodge where a higher grade success on the attack completely ignores your dodge roll).

Am I mising stuff? Can people sell me on these aspects of the new game?

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I hadn't caught that dodge was now an opposed roll.  Not too keen on that one.  Hold on!  Dodge is the same as in RQ3.  Kind of an opposed roll but simpler and more reliable.

 

The rest just takes a little getting used to but try it you'll like it.

(I'd make a joke about Mikey but that might be showing my age).  

Edited by Pentallion

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59 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

1) Rune Points/Divine Magic tied to the seasons rather than recovery via prayer

RQ Classic: a Rune magic spell cannot be cast again until the Priest spends a day of quiet worship at a temple or holy place of the Priest’s cult

RQG: Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites.

Replenishment is not tied to a season but to a holy day when worship normally occurs.  There's really no effective difference here.

What is different with Rune Points is that they can be applied to a cult special rune spell OR any common rune spell.  That is a big difference and plus in my mind - you no longer have to forego cool cult special rune magic because you need to make sure you've got Spirit Block available.

59 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

2) Experience rolls/training tied to seasons

Consider this RQ Classic example: the cost of training determines how long the character must train to gain an increase. Thus, STR, which takes 1000 L to gain a 1 point increase, will take 10 game weeks at 2 hours a day, or 2½ game weeks at 8 hours a day

Or review the cost/training time required on the Weapons Training table on p. 26 or the cost for Experience Gained on p.120 - i.e. training takes continuous downtime such as a season or more to achieve in both versions.

Experience rolls happen in whatever downtime you, as the GM, choose.  But characters still have to make a living - not every adventure is going to generate coin to spend.  

Consider the points made in RQ2 on Episodic and Full Campaigns (p.116): the regular characters adventure in pre-set locales, usually starting near the objective, and spend their ‘between game time’ in an unspecified world with spell and skill training costs equal to those given in the rules.  And: The characters may have to spend game time on worldly duties, may find themselves embroiled in a cousin’s feud, or have to hide for months without play because of a government enquiry or purge.

All these aspects are there in the original world.  Noting them as just taking a season is a quick and expedient way to handle between adventures.  And there's nothing that prohibits running continuous sessions without downtime - but while you'd get your experience rolls, you shouldn't expect to have training time with no downtime.

59 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

3) Cha limits on Divine Magic

Note p.313: The maximum number of Rune points an adventurer can have with a single cult is equal to their CHA.  Just joining a second cult doubles your possible maximum rune points - and given the POW sacrifice required, that will take some time to fill.  And that doesn't take into account enchantments or other magical artifacts which could easily boost you further.  

Remember that CHA is your effective leadership ability - your ability to be noticed by your god or goddess.  To get beyond normal human limits, you need to heroquest (and hopefully by the time we get to the point of having that many rune points we will have a book on heroquesting available to provide more details).

59 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Dodge 'death lottery' (returning to the old version of Dodge where a higher grade success on the attack completely ignores your dodge roll).

Not sure where you see this.  Critical Dodge vs. Critical attack = Attack is dodged successfully.

Generally parries are better than dodges, but Dodge is still effective.

 

I'll just add that I don't think any of these are barriers to play.  I've been GM'ing RQG for a year and a half now and have found it enjoyable to run and my players have found it enjoyable to play.  The Rune Points and ability of adventurers to actually use a broader range of a deity's magic has been very positive (and I ran RQ3 for 10 years and it was rare that adventurers ever really got to leverage the range of rune magic that they do now).  Replenishment of Rune Points and training feels realistic.  The Runes and Passions work very well for inspiration and augments - players have really made great use of those.  Combat still feels like RQ combat - except that we don't usually end in marathon battles struggling to get some edge.  We've yet to hit limits on anything the players want to do but find the rules don't let them.

Edited by jajagappa
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5 hours ago, Tywyll said:

So I got RQG for xmas and there are a few things I'm not sure I'm sold on...

1) Rune Points/Divine Magic tied to the seasons rather than recovery via prayer

2) Experience rolls/training tied to seasons

3) Cha limits on Divine Magic (yes, I know this is a balance to more flexible divine magic, but still)

4) Dodge 'death lottery' (returning to the old version of Dodge where a higher grade success on the attack completely ignores your dodge roll).

Am I mising stuff? Can people sell me on these aspects of the new game?

Others have addressed your 1) and 2) very well.

Your 3) is a limitation that I'd personally rule as being surpassable only through HeroQuesting. It makes sense that mortals with no greater than the ordinary links to the God Time should have only a limited power to manifest its magic in the world.

The 4) is very similar to the old RQ3, and it worked well enough at the time.

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I disagree that Dodge worked well in RQ3. It was a trap choice and has been fixed in later editions of D100 systems so that a successful dodge still has some effect on an attack, even a special or a critical being reduced by a success grade. Parry still get in the way of a special attack, why does dodge have no effect.

I'm aware that training time takes downtime, but it used to be more flexible. Now as I understand it you cam only train four skills regardless of levels and not if you used them in an adventure. That also bothers me, a flat limit on one chance at improvement 

In older editions, you could have several short adventures and still get experience checks if you earned them.

As for regaining your divine magic, yes you are limited to holy days bit as I understand it, those are seasonal. Meaning again, you can't really adventure multiple times and recover your resources.

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32 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Meaning again, you can't really adventure multiple times and recover your resources.

One of the core thematic changes in RQ:G is the strong focus on community. Adventurers have responsibilities at home that prevent them from frequent trips. Hence the 'one adventure' per year. If you play a more traditional 'errant knight' type of campaign then you should change these limits.

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6 minutes ago, Psullie said:

One of the core thematic changes in RQ:G is the strong focus on community. Adventurers have responsibilities at home that prevent them from frequent trips. Hence the 'one adventure' per year. If you play a more traditional 'errant knight' type of campaign then you should change these limits.

Even that could still include more 'adventures' for the clan...cattle raids, trade missions, protecting from attacks...all important for the clan but still likely to result in experience chances.

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2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

you could have several short adventures and still get experience checks if you earned them

You can still!  That's up to the GM to decide pace of play and what happens.  That's happening in my own RQG game right now - what might be hand-waved by some is a short interlude to follow Queen Leika and Prince Kallyr into battle against the Lunars.  

The one adventure per season with downtime for community activity is reflective of the obligations you have there.  RQ2 was much more reflective of the late 70's/early 80's dungeoneering mindset.  

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I'm aware that training time takes downtime, but it used to be more flexible

It really wasn't given the cost to train and the requirement to focus on that training continuously during that time period.  

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

has been fixed in later editions of D100 systems so that a successful dodge still has some effect on an attack

I can't speak to that as I've not played such.  But Dodge does have effect on equal or lesser successes of attacks in RQG.  I'm not expecting a critical dodge to cause an attacker to fumble or damage their weapon.  

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

holy days bit as I understand it, those are seasonal

There are high holy days each season.  Many cults have weekly holy days.  And a priest at a holy site with a Worship spell can lead a worship service to regain those points anytime.  That's what was hand-waved in the older versions.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

You can still!  That's up to the GM to decide pace of play and what happens.  That's happening in my own RQG game right now - what might be hand-waved by some is a short interlude to follow Queen Leika and Prince Kallyr into battle against the Lunars.  

1

Sure, sure, I get Rule Zero and all that and I'm perfectly happy to switch experience and training back to RQ3 or BGB style rules, but I was looking to see if anyone could sell me on the idea as presented in the new RAW.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The one adventure per season with downtime for community activity is reflective of the obligations you have there.  RQ2 was much more reflective of the late 70's/early 80's dungeoneering mindset.  

1

Sure. But it also depends on what you end up doing. A long quest to Snake Pipe Hollow in the name of your clan ought to produce more than a single experience check per skill!

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It really wasn't given the cost to train and the requirement to focus on that training continuously during that time period.  

 

No, that's just wrong. Taking a week to train a skill =/= taking a season. Also, it provided more use for treasure. 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I can't speak to that as I've not played such.  But Dodge does have effect on equal or lesser successes of attacks in RQG.  I'm not expecting a critical dodge to cause an attacker to fumble or damage their weapon.  

2

It has no effect on a HIGHER success though. That's why its a trap. It's all or nothing. If you decide you are doing that in the intention phase and your opponent rolls a special or crit, you are screwed, even if you have a 95% of dodging. That's been fixed in later iterations of d100 games for years, I don't know why they went back to this version. It makes playing swashbuckly, lightly armored characters a death trap. 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There are high holy days each season.  Many cults have weekly holy days.  And a priest at a holy site with a Worship spell can lead a worship service to regain those points anytime.  That's what was hand-waved in the older versions.

Is there a list of the holy days I've missed? Where is that? I thought I read it was seasonal. 

If I'm wrong though, then that's much better!

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20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Consider this RQ Classic example: the cost of training determines how long the character must train to gain an increase. Thus, STR, which takes 1000 L to gain a 1 point increase, will take 10 game weeks at 2 hours a day, or 2½ game weeks at 8 hours a day

Or review the cost/training time required on the Weapons Training table on p. 26 or the cost for Experience Gained on p.120 - i.e. training takes continuous downtime such as a season or more to achieve in both versions.

 

I'll take 2 1/2 weeks over six months any day (it takes 2 seasons to train an attribute now). 

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Experience rolls happen in whatever downtime you, as the GM, choose.  But characters still have to make a living - not every adventure is going to generate coin to spend.  

 

Not per RAW, unless I've missed something?

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Note p.313: The maximum number of Rune points an adventurer can have with a single cult is equal to their CHA.  Just joining a second cult doubles your possible maximum rune points - and given the POW sacrifice required, that will take some time to fill.  And that doesn't take into account enchantments or other magical artifacts which could easily boost you further.  

Remember that CHA is your effective leadership ability - your ability to be noticed by your god or goddess.  To get beyond normal human limits, you need to heroquest (and hopefully by the time we get to the point of having that many rune points we will have a book on heroquesting available to provide more details).

2

It also means some races are just better at being in the graces of the gods, potentially (windchildren, foxwomen) and some are worse. Though I do see in the bestiary that most playable races have been reduced to 3d6 CHA so things are relatively even. 

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Not sure where you see this.  Critical Dodge vs. Critical attack = Attack is dodged successfully.

Generally parries are better than dodges, but Dodge is still effective.

1

Successful Dodge vs Special Attack=suffer full damage. That's my issue. It's a 'trap' choice. 

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2 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Not per RAW, unless I've missed something?

p.415: "If more than one adventure occurs during a season, the gamemaster may allow experience rolls after each adventure."

8 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Successful Dodge vs Special Attack=suffer full damage. That's my issue. It's a 'trap' choice.

Ok, see where you're coming from on that one.  

11 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

I'll take 2 1/2 weeks over six months any day (it takes 2 seasons to train an attribute now).

More realistically now 16 weeks (2 seasons) with a cost of 500L vs. 10 weeks at a cost of 1000L (for STR/DEX) or 2000L (for CON). [Yes it can be compressed but if you've got other community duties, 8 hours a day training is just not realistic.]

27 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

A long quest to Snake Pipe Hollow in the name of your clan ought to produce more than a single experience check per skill!

Why?  It never did before.  RQ2 was: At the end of the scenario, when the character can take a week to relax and meditate upon his experience, there is a chance he will learn from what happened to him.  Might depend on your definition of scenario, but scenario and session are equivalent in my mind.

31 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Is there a list of the holy days I've missed? Where is that? I thought I read it was seasonal. 

RQG p.185 references "Weekly or other minor holy day" and p.288 notes "The High Holy Day and seasonal holy days are listed." I.e. minor and weekly holy days exist but are not described.

 

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2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

ISuccessful Dodge vs Special Attack=suffer full damage. That's my issue. It's a 'trap' choice. 

Would you be happier if a successful dodge against a special attack downgrades the damage of that attack to that of a normal success (and likewise special dodge vs critical attack)?

Taking a hit is going to hurt. Succcessfully parrying an overwhelmingly strong hit may still knock you around the room, even if the damage reduction from the parrying weapon and the body armor reduces that hit to a flesh wound. Successfully dodging it means no damage.

Yes, it's a gamble. Dodging at low skill levels should only be done against attacks with survivable damage. When facing a 4 meter giant with a tree bole as a club, parrying is the worse gamble if both parry and dodge are in the 60% range.

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Dodge is not a “trap”, since it’s effect is superior to a Parry. With Parry, damage is always a factor, and you put not only yourself, but your weapon at risk. Parry costs resources. Always 

Dodge, when successful, negates all damage. 

If A successful Dodge always reduced the success level of the attack, then it would be probable for a being with a high Dodge and enough armor or magic to be effectively invulnerable. Dodge would become the must have skill at higher “levels”. 

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11 hours ago, Tywyll said:

In older editions, you could have several short adventures and still get experience checks if you earned them.

There's nothing to prevent that in RQG.

P. 415

"At the end of each season, each player can make an experience
roll for each check on the adventurer sheet. If more than one
adventure occurs during a season, the gamemaster may allow
experience rolls after each adventure
."

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3 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

There's nothing to prevent that in RQG.

P. 415

"At the end of each season, each player can make an experience
roll for each check on the adventurer sheet. If more than one
adventure occurs during a season, the gamemaster may allow
experience rolls after each adventure
."

Yep. The default advise to gamemasters is to have one "notable episode" happen each season. Move the campaign forward in time. There's thirty years of campaign ahead of you!

As for Dodge being a trap, it is an early decision tree for the adventurers. Do I want to be a character who tries to dodge blows, but doesn't wear much armor, so if I fail to dodge I am in big trouble? Or do I want to be a character who tries to parry, which means I wear as much armor (magical or physical) as possible, carry a shield, and get into slug-matches with Hector? 

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:28 AM, jajagappa said:

RQ Classic: a Rune magic spell cannot be cast again until the Priest spends a day of quiet worship at a temple or holy place of the Priest’s cult

RQG: Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites.

Replenishment is not tied to a season but to a holy day when worship normally occurs.  There's really no effective difference here.

Except there is. In RQ2/3, I can go to a Temple at any time and repray Rune Magic. In RQG, I have to wait until a Holy Day. That is a massive change, in my opinion. I would allow a Priest/Lord to repray at any time.

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8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Except there is. In RQ2/3, I can go to a Temple at any time and repray Rune Magic. In RQG, I have to wait until a Holy Day. That is a massive change, in my opinion. I would allow a Priest/Lord to repray at any time.

You need that temporal connection to the god to replenish your Rune magic. It isn't like doing a bunch of Hail Mary Mother of Gods and counting rosary beads. This is like Shabbat, a day of magical energies tied to the deity.   

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10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Except there is. In RQ2/3, I can go to a Temple at any time and repray Rune Magic. In RQG, I have to wait until a Holy Day. That is a massive change, in my opinion. I would allow a Priest/Lord to repray at any time.

On the other hand, in RQG the RP/L (and initiate) are getting Rune Points back rather than specific Rune Spells they sacrificed for. Far more flexible and useful and MGF than how it works in RQ 2/3, in my opinion.

And it makes magical/mythic resonant sense to me that a RL/P needs to wait for the right day of their deity to replenish. 

 

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I really like the RQG Rune Point system. In RQ2/3, Rune Magic sometimes felt too precious to use, knowing that you had to sacrifice hard-won POW to get it back again.

With Rune Points, you can still get them back after most sessions, so casting Rune Magic feels usable and practical, but still a significant expenditure of a PCs resources - as it should do.

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44 minutes ago, Sumath said:

I really like the RQG Rune Point system. In RQ2/3, Rune Magic sometimes felt too precious to use, knowing that you had to sacrifice hard-won POW to get it back again.

With Rune Points, you can still get them back after most sessions, so casting Rune Magic feels usable and practical, but still a significant expenditure of a PCs resources - as it should do.

Yes, this is one of the points where I feel RQG vastly superior to RQIII.

Kloster

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15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

More realistically now 16 weeks (2 seasons) with a cost of 500L vs. 10 weeks at a cost of 1000L (for STR/DEX) or 2000L (for CON). [Yes it can be compressed but if you've got other community duties, 8 hours a day training is just not realistic.]

How do you get those figures (for RQIII)? Char training time was Current value time 25 hours, which means 375 hours for going from 15 to 16. That was 7.5 weeks for a cost of 225L when learning full time (and 75 L if we divide by 3 to compare with RQG) and a duration of 15 to 20 weeks if you train part time.

Kloster

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26 minutes ago, Kloster said:

How do you get those figures (for RQIII)? Char training time was Current value time 25 hours, which means 375 hours for going from 15 to 16. That was 7.5 weeks for a cost of 225L when learning full time (and 75 L if we divide by 3 to compare with RQG) and a duration of 15 to 20 weeks if you train part time.

Kloster

A Gloranthan season is 8 weeks long. It takes two season to train a characteristic. The idea that Gloranthan characters are going to spend 7+ hours a day doing strength training is just not realistic to me and certainly makes no sense as a rules default.

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16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A Gloranthan season is 8 weeks long. It takes two season to train a characteristic. The idea that Gloranthan characters are going to spend 7+ hours a day doing strength training is just not realistic to me and certainly makes no sense as a rules default.

I completely agree with you on all your point. This is part of the progresses made with RQG.

My question was about the time and cost in RQIII Jajagappa was speaking about. I can' think a way to go to 1000 or 2000 L, even for high stats. For the duration, it was quite the same (15 weeks with part time training as in RQG, compared to 16 in RQG or 10 weeks given by Jajagappa) for going from 15 to 16, but completely off for going from 8 to 9 for example ( 8 weeks compared to .16 for RQG or 10 for Jajagappa).

Kloster

Edited by Kloster

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