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Ian Cooper

The Many and the One, or has there always been a Yelm?

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12 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

As a corollary, the fact that the mythic pre-murder Yelm is static and never reaches the ground, yet the pre-Yelmic Red King did plunge into the western horizon in Naverian myth suggests to me that the static-Suns-stoppish Yelm at the apex of the universe is the aberration, not the cycling Sun that enters the Underworld.

I suppose it all depends on when Yelm was static. Was he static before Umath ripped Sky and Earth asunder, or was he static afterwards?

If he was static before, then Umath's act might have forced Yelm to move, perhaps moving towards the torn Earth.

If he was static afterwards, then he might have moved when Orlanth killed him.

However, my feeling is that Yelm did not stay in the same place for the whole of his existence. Maybe Yelm the Emperor did, but Yelm the Sun Disc may well have moved.

After all, one of his myths is the Burning of Mallia, before Mallia became part of the Unholy Trinity, so did that happen in Yelm's Palace, or was Yelm moving around at that point?

12 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Indeed, the interpolation of an eternal day into the old cycle of day and night (Xentha already existed at the time of Yelm's murder, after all) may be the first 'breaking' of the Cosmos, the source of the friction and wrongness that led to everything else.

Xentha already existed, but not in the Sky. Before Yelm was killed, she was a Goddess of Night in the Underworld, probably one of the many deities keeping the Underworld dark. Only after Yelm was killed and the darkness Spirits were forced from Wonderhome did Xentha slide up the Sky. After Yelm was killed, there was no Night and Day, there was Night. Night and day happened after time began.

Now, some can argue that the other Solar deities might have caused some Day, but there would have been battles between Night and Day at that point, so it would not have been a regular thing. As Xentha travelled through the Sky and the Solar Deities were slowly destroyed, Night became more and more powerful. This was the Lesser Darkness, after all.

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10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I suppose it all depends on when Yelm was static. Was he static before Umath ripped Sky and Earth asunder, or was he static afterwards?

That's an interesting idea - Yelm might have been on a clockwork track on the Sunpath (and so may have been other light objects which was broken when Umath lifted up the sky. But then, why did he choose noon for his birth? Any other time, and the sun may have ended up much lower on its path. (Unless the clockwork managed to bring the object up before losing its expected grip, or the transfer to the other half beyond the Spike, or whatever.)

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If he was static before, then Umath's act might have forced Yelm to move, perhaps moving towards the torn Earth.

The Dara Happans tell us otherwise. Yelm rose higher into the Sky after Umath was born and the rivers invaded the topside of the world which had come into their reach again as Umath had pushed down the earth onto the Spike (creating its foothills?) and down into the sea.

 

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If he was static afterwards, then he might have moved when Orlanth killed him.

That is a known fact - the only witnessed Godtime move of Yelm on the Sunpath was down to the Gates of Dusk and into Wonderhome.

 

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

However, my feeling is that Yelm did not stay in the same place for the whole of his existence. Maybe Yelm the Emperor did, but Yelm the Sun Disc may well have moved.

Another convert... 

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

After all, one of his myths is the Burning of Mallia, before Mallia became part of the Unholy Trinity, so did that happen in Yelm's Palace, or was Yelm moving around at that point?

Pluripresence. Any greater deity can handle more than a handful of presences at a time. Even heroes can - Ralzakark has at least three.

 

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Xentha already existed, but not in the Sky. Before Yelm was killed, she was a Goddess of Night in the Underworld, probably one of the many deities keeping the Underworld dark. Only after Yelm was killed and the darkness Spirits were forced from Wonderhome did Xentha slide up the Sky. After Yelm was killed, there was no Night and Day, there was Night. Night and day happened after time began.

There may have been a night, but on the surface, it may have been illuminated by other bodies - e.g. the White Queens'. Pre-Godtime-Sunstop Golden Age surface nights could have been against a non- or less golden sky, with plenty of other bodies providing light - e.g. the lesser orbs above the cities.

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Now, some can argue that the other Solar deities might have caused some Day, but there would have been battles between Night and Day at that point, so it would not have been a regular thing. As Xentha travelled through the Sky and the Solar Deities were slowly destroyed, Night became more and more powerful. This was the Lesser Darkness, after all.

The Storm Age started with the (daytime?) sky turning blue (again. although now a different blue, not the blue flame of Aether, but the watery blue of Lorion - or did that start with the biirth of Umath?). Darkness followed, too. Returning to a day-night-cycle would have been a lesser darkness, too, right?

There had been stars in the sky since Umath was repelled from entering the Celestial City, and quite a few original city orbs / Planetary sons (and daughters) of Yelm less.

 

Lots of possibilities that somehow don't get to be experienced by the questers firmly bound into the syncretic myths that emerged from the Bright Empire.

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17 hours ago, Joerg said:

And that's the stagnant age that Umath rebelled against, to re-instate the cyclic nature of Godtime...

But then, maybe it is the conflation of the Emperor (who always is present above, in his city and/or palace high up) and the sun which causes these problems.

Could 'Yelm' or his antecedent have actually sought the identification with the Emperor as part of an attempt, Nysalorean or God-time, to obtain sovereignty over the Cosmos?

The GL myth has it that the Emperor (not explicitly Yelm) is created by the Cosmic Court as part of their ordering against the threat of the Predark. This god-creation has similar properties to the making of Nysalor himself.

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On 1/15/2019 at 8:47 PM, jeffjerwin said:

I think Yelm/the Emperor's basic mythic role is as a male god of sovereignty and glory, and his subordination of Ernalda and Dendara is a direct repudiation of the rule-bestowing nature of the Earth: it is he that claims land not by mingling and mating with the ground, but by hovering cleanly above her. His sons/kinsmen are not so arrogant (even Kargzant has his mare-goddess, who clearly hid sovereignty powers).

Agreed, that is kind of the topic of the next thread I was thinking of posting. For the Orlanthi the Sun and the Emperor are two distinct things I think, until the Bright Empire where he becomes associated with Yelm, the sun disk.

I do not think that the essential Gloranthan conflict is sun vs. storm, but tyrant vs. rebel. The cycle seems to repeat in every age: Empire emerges, promises good new life for all at the price of allowing the leadership to become gods; rebel emerges to free people from the tyranny of these new gods. Nysalor/Arkat; EWF/Alakoring; Red Moon/Argrath

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4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

Agreed, that is kind of the topic of the next thread I was thinking of posting. For the Orlanthi the Sun and the Emperor are two distinct things I think, until the Bright Empire where he becomes associated with Yelm, the sun disk.

I do not think that the essential Gloranthan conflict is sun vs. storm, but tyrant vs. rebel. The cycle seems to repeat in every age: Empire emerges, promises good new life for all at the price of allowing the leadership to become gods; rebel emerges to free people from the tyranny of these new gods. Nysalor/Arkat; EWF/Alakoring; Red Moon/Argrath

and Harshax... and ?

It's always followed, however, by a irruption of Chaos.

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