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Tupper

Death by a thousand cuts

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I've been trying to wrap my head around the rules for wounds in RQG.  My confusion stems from whether "major" effects (going into shock or being maimed) can be achieved by many small wounds, or if they have to be done by one big wound.  Rather than clog up the official answers list, I thought I'd try asking the question of the fine folks on the forum first! :)

The core book reads (under "Damage equals or exceeds double the location's hit points"): "An adventurer cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg *from a single blow* ... However an adventurer so damaged *from a single blow* is functionally incapacitated: they can no longer fight until healed and are in shock" (emphasis mine).   Analogously, under "Damage equal or exceeds triple the location's hit points" reads "A limb hit for three times more points than it can take *in a single blow* is severed or irrevocably maimed" (again, emphasis mine).  Do these effects only happen if a *single blow* caused double/triple the target's limb's hit points, or can they happen cumulatively?  My naive read of the rules was that these results only happen if they're from one big hit, but Jason Durall's answers from last October seem to suggest that cumulative damage can yield shock or maiming.  

To make my confusion concrete, here is an example that illustrates my three conundrums.  I have 18 total hit points, giving me 5 in each arm.   I get hit twice in the left arm, first for 5 points, and then for 10 points.  

1.  When I take the second hit, is the damage reduced to 5 points, since my arm can only take 10 points (5 x 2) total, or do the 10 points still go to the arm, since they do not (as a single blow) exceed twice my hit points?

2.  If the answer to question 1 is that I've taken 15 points of damage to my arm, is it now maimed, because it has taken 3 times its total hit points (10+5=15)?  Or is it not maimed because it didn't take 15 points in a *single blow*.

Now suppose I got hit twice in the left arm, first for 5 points, and then for 5 points again (there's no ambiguity here: I've taken 10 points of damage to the arm).

3.  When I take the second hit, am I in shock?  I have taken 10 points to my arm (twice its capacity), but it was not from a single blow.  Note that I've still got 8 total hit points left, so I'm nowhere near unconsciousness based on total damage.

Thanking you all in advance!

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4 hours ago, Tupper said:

The core book reads (under "Damage equals or exceeds double the location's hit points"): "An adventurer cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg *from a single blow* ... However an adventurer so damaged *from a single blow* is functionally incapacitated: they can no longer fight until healed and are in shock" (emphasis mine).

The text is lifted straight from RQ2, I think RQ3 eliminated this distinction and an accumulation of hits was the same as a single blow. Personally I will ignore the "from a single blow" part entirely.

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I think that the damage section suffers a little by not using specific terms for specific effects. There are three way's a character or limb can become incapacitated. The first is when a limb loses all its HP that limb is incapacitated, be it form one or many wounds. Second: Loses 2x limb HP incapacitates if from a single wound.  Third: A character can become incapacitated from Slashing weapons that score a special hit and equals or exceed that limbs HP. The way I play limb damage is that x2 HP is Max HP it can pass on to the total, regardless of how many actual HP it actually has. So a 5HP arm will always pass through up to 10 HP damage regardless of its current HP.

To run through your example:

1st hit: 5 damage to arm, arm is useless and 0 hp. Total HP 18-5 = 13

2nd hit: 10 damage to arm, arm is -5 HP. Total HP 13-10 - 3, Character is in shock and incapacitated as damage came from one hit

alternate example:

1st hit: 5 damage to arm, arm is useless and 0 hp. Total HP 18-5 = 13

2nd hit: 8 damage to arm, arm is useless and -5 hp. total HP 13-8 = 5, character still able to act

3rd hit: 2 damage to arm, arm still -5. Total HP 5-2 = 3, character still able to act

another example:

1st hit: 25 damage to arm, arm is maimed, and -5 HP, total HP is 18-10 = 8, but character is in shock and incapacitated as it came from a one hit,

Lastly:

1st hit: Special Slash of 6 damage. Arm is -1 and useless. Total HP = 18-6=12 Character must make a (CON-6)*5 roll or become incapacitated

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Thanks for the answers!   Psullie's answer sounds like how I read the rulebook, whereas Sotakss' and PhilHibbs' sound like how I read Jason Durall's answers.  I have a feeling that this is an RQ2 vs RQ3 thing (as PhilHibbs suggests).

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I suppose it's a matter of taste and preference.

If you like the idea that every wound causes blood loss and the cumulative effect can cause problems, then use the death by a thousand cuts approach.

If you like the 80s Action Hero approach where Arnie/Sly/Brucie just laugh off flesh wounds, then go for the One Hit approach.

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On 1/9/2019 at 9:33 AM, Tupper said:

I've been trying to wrap my head around the rules for wounds in RQG.  My confusion stems from whether "major" effects (going into shock or being maimed) can be achieved by many small wounds, or if they have to be done by one big wound.  Rather than clog up the official answers list, I thought I'd try asking the question of the fine folks on the forum first! :)

The core book reads (under "Damage equals or exceeds double the location's hit points"): "An adventurer cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg *from a single blow* ... However an adventurer so damaged *from a single blow* is functionally incapacitated: they can no longer fight until healed and are in shock" (emphasis mine).   Analogously, under "Damage equal or exceeds triple the location's hit points" reads "A limb hit for three times more points than it can take *in a single blow* is severed or irrevocably maimed" (again, emphasis mine).  Do these effects only happen if a *single blow* caused double/triple the target's limb's hit points, or can they happen cumulatively?  My naive read of the rules was that these results only happen if they're from one big hit, but Jason Durall's answers from last October seem to suggest that cumulative damage can yield shock or maiming.  

To make my confusion concrete, here is an example that illustrates my three conundrums.  I have 18 total hit points, giving me 5 in each arm.   I get hit twice in the left arm, first for 5 points, and then for 10 points.  

1.  When I take the second hit, is the damage reduced to 5 points, since my arm can only take 10 points (5 x 2) total, or do the 10 points still go to the arm, since they do not (as a single blow) exceed twice my hit points?

2.  If the answer to question 1 is that I've taken 15 points of damage to my arm, is it now maimed, because it has taken 3 times its total hit points (10+5=15)?  Or is it not maimed because it didn't take 15 points in a *single blow*.

Now suppose I got hit twice in the left arm, first for 5 points, and then for 5 points again (there's no ambiguity here: I've taken 10 points of damage to the arm).

3.  When I take the second hit, am I in shock?  I have taken 10 points to my arm (twice its capacity), but it was not from a single blow.  Note that I've still got 8 total hit points left, so I'm nowhere near unconsciousness based on total damage.

Thanking you all in advance!

Heres my take reading RQG rules as written:

1. Your arm takes another 5 pts of damage bringing it to its x 2 damage limit of -5 (minus 5). However remaining damage will still go to Total Hit Points (limited by x2 damage threshold in a single blow) . So Total Hit Points are reduced by the full 10 hit points with the second blow. I think the examples are clear on this.

Edit: Importantly, as well as what I've mentioned above the second hit was a big x2 damage to the limb in a single blow, which brings into affect *functionally incapacitated*

2. It is not maimed or severed. Maimed or severed (x3) only happens through damage received from a single blow, not cumulative. However as I pointed out above, the second blow was a big x2 the location HP in a single blow, so the player becomes *functionally incapacitated*.

3. As written it does say x2 damage will  *functionally incapacitate* a character only if received through through a *single blow*. If its a result of two separate hits as in your example then it would read that the character is not *functionally incapacitated*, but will still be suffering from the effects of Damage Equal to or More than the Locations Hit Points. In other words a useless limb.  - Note though that this is only the case with limbs. Head, chest, and Abdomen will suffer the x2 effect through cumulative blows, not just a single blow.

 

As a side note RQ3 did have the cumulative hits leading to maimed, and a single blow to severed, but that was at the x2 threshold (not x3 as in RQG).

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 1/9/2019 at 3:39 PM, Psullie said:

I think that the damage section suffers a little by not using specific terms for specific effects. There are three way's a character or limb can become incapacitated. The first is when a limb loses all its HP that limb is incapacitated, be it form one or many wounds. Second: Loses 2x limb HP incapacitates if from a single wound.  Third: A character can become incapacitated from Slashing weapons that score a special hit and equals or exceed that limbs HP. The way I play limb damage is that x2 HP is Max HP it can pass on to the total, regardless of how many actual HP it actually has. So a 5HP arm will always pass through up to 10 HP damage regardless of its current HP.

 To run through your example:

1st hit: 5 damage to arm, arm is useless and 0 hp. Total HP 18-5 = 13

2nd hit: 10 damage to arm, arm is -5 HP. Total HP 13-10 - 3, Character is in shock and incapacitated as damage came from one hit

alternate example:

1st hit: 5 damage to arm, arm is useless and 0 hp. Total HP 18-5 = 13

2nd hit: 8 damage to arm, arm is useless and -5 hp. total HP 13-8 = 5, character still able to act

3rd hit: 2 damage to arm, arm still -5. Total HP 5-2 = 3, character still able to act

another example:

1st hit: 25 damage to arm, arm is maimed, and -5 HP, total HP is 18-10 = 8, but character is in shock and incapacitated as it came from a one hit,

Lastly:

1st hit: Special Slash of 6 damage. Arm is -1 and useless. Total HP = 18-6=12 Character must make a (CON-6)*5 roll or become incapacitated

Yes I agree with this, the examples seem right to me.  Although i think there is an important  distinction you've missed out in the first paragraph regarding definition of incapacitation (though not in the example)  - The definition of *functionally incapacitated*  (x2 dam in a single hit) refers to the adventurer ( not just the limb) being functionally incapacitated. This is different from Damage equal to or more than Locations Hit points, which results in a useless limb, but importantly the adventurer is still able to function. 

Edit: So the really big two debilitating effects only happen if damage is received through a single blow:

  •  x2 dam in one hit (Adventurer functionally incapacitated )
  • x3 dam in one hit  ( maimed or severed)

With the exception that head, chest and adomen (the vitals) can recieve the x2 damage effect (Adventurer functionally incapacitated ) through cumulative hits. Though again if these vital hit locations are at minus already ( Damage Equal to or More then  the Locations hit points ) you’re already suffering some very significant damage effects. In particular the Head or Chest locations, which is pretty much equivalent to being x2 functionally incapacitated, only with a slower rate of bleeding. So there is some overlap with the damage effects depending on hit location, and I can see why Psuille combined them in the opening paragraph. 

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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Thanks again for all the answers. There’s one bit that’s still  niggling at me: the damage from limbs going to total hit points after the limb takes double its capacity in damage. My read of that passage of the core book is that it’s double limb hp damage *from a single blow* that triggers this (subsequent) behaviour. The reason I think this is the case (besides the fact that this clause seems to be following on from the discussion of taking a single big hit on a limb) is that otherwise the system generates “messy” wounds, where some of the damage is associated with a limb, and some with total hp. 

For example: I have 5hp in my arm. I’m hit for 7 damage, and then 5. The second wound becomes 3hp to the arm and 2 to total hp (if we say that the arm can only go to -5). 

The reason this is messy is that healing is done per limb, so the total hp damage heals in parallel with the arm. Hence when healing with first aid, one might well ask *which* hp from that wound get healed? The total hp damage or the limb damage? This isn’t mentioned at all in the first aid section.

With the interpretation that damage *after a single blow does double the limb’s hp* goes onto total hp, this all makes more sense. Wounds to limbs will always either be all limb hp damage (prior to taking a really big hit) or all total hp damage (after taking a really big hit) and there’ll be no “mixed location” damage.

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I think you are over complicating it. Total HP is completely abstract, it simply tracks ALL damage taken regardless of location. It cannot go below 0. Each point of damage reduces Total HP, each point of Heal increases total HP. 

Your arm, hit by a 7 & a 5 damage. (let's assume THP 16) The first hit reduces the arm to -2 and reduces your THP to 9. The next hit reduces the arm to -7* and your THP to 4.

Healing or first aid to the arm will simply add HP to the arm and THP. So a Heal 3 will bring the arm to -4, and THP to 7 (the arm is still out of action). The fact that you have a total HP capacity in hit locations that is greater than THP means that when healed, your could be at full Total HP but still have damage to limbs. This is also important for restoring function to maimed limbs, as a maimed limb must be fully restored within 10 minutes (you may need healing magic beyond your THP)

*there is a little confusion about how far into the negatives you can go. Jason suggested -x2 so a 5hp arm can go to -10hp, I prefer to play -x1, so a 5hp arm can only go to -5hp.

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Yes I agree completely with Psuille again - and I’m pretty sure everyone I know measures the negative hit points as Psuille says. So a 5pt arm can only go down to -5 hitpoints (x2), after which any further damage to the arm will only go to Total Hit points. 

Perhaps the only other slight ambuigiuty is that there is also similarly a limit of x2 damage max that can be recieved through a single blow...*regardless of remaining hit points in that location*. (With the exception of maimed or severed x3, in which case the limb is no longer there, and falling damage can also exceed this limit) 

So a subsequent hit to a 5pt arm already at x2 limit (minus 5), will go instead only to Total Hit points, up to the maximum damage of x2 the hit location.

Edit:...but this is academic as you’re character will likely be dead by then :) 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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