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Death by a thousand cuts

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@Tupperok big apologies  - there is one aspect I’ve somehow overlooked here...

Limb locations can indeed get to the x2 damage effect from culmaltive hits( as Jason says). It’s only the x3 severing effect that has to be from a single hit with “limbs”. Further damage to a "limb" after x2 limit has been reached only goes to Total Hit points, not the limb hit location.

This makes sense as you don't count further wounds to limbs(only total hitpoints) after x2 has been reached. It’s therefore only possible to trigger the x3 severing effect from a single hit, not cumulative hits. 

 

Edit: I've edited my previous post to include the point above.

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 4/3/2019 at 1:37 AM, Tupper said:

The reason I say 2 is that in order to figure out whether you've reached maimed status, you'd have to associate the subsequent wounds with the limb.  If the damage gets recorded as "general/total" HP damage, it could be hard to tell where it came from (of course this interpretation - as noted above - would conflict with Jason's earlier comment on the questions and answers thread). 

This is why x3 severing hits to limbs can only occur through a single hit, not cumulative hits. Limb wounds aren’t recorded after x2 limit has been reached. It makes sense as subsequent hits probably wouldn’t hit the exact same point on the limb necessary to build up to a sever.

 

First Aid skill

Going off on another related tangent - I think the whole idea of healing specific associated wounds is only tied in with the first aid rule.

I think i mentioned this before, first aid was introduced in RQ3, which only went up to x2 wounds max, unlike RQG and RQ2 which go up to x3. As you can imagine applying first aid skill in RQG creates a discrepancy with associated wounds and healing - wounds received to the limbs after the x2 limit don't count, but do register with total hit points.  First aid worked in RQ3 with the x2 limit, but feels wonky in RQG for this reason.

To be honest I'm surprised that Chaosium have stuck with the RQ3 first aid skill which necessitates more book keeping. I thought RQ3 style of more book keeping was something they weren't particulary keen on in RQG? Perhaps in light of the wonkiness with RQG and how limbs receive damage( no recorded dam to limbs after x2, only to total hit points), the First aid skill should be rewritten for RQG? 

I've brought up this point in the core rules question thread.

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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On 4/4/2019 at 3:34 AM, Tupper said:

In this situation, the tricky thing with RAI is that 90% of this section was written by Steve Perrin and friends, and they're not here to enlighten us what they meant.  

Oh Steve's here now and again.  He may chime in.

 

RAI for us has always been: 

No body part can 'pass on' to body hp anything over 2x that part.**

Parts are ACTUALLY severed by a non impaling, non blunt weapon doing 3x AT A SINGLE BLOW* ...otherwise, after they reach that 2x cap, you're just grinding hamburger.

** except falling/knockback damage

*recognizing that yes, people could eventually hack through an arm with a jackknife (it's been done irl https://www.foxnews.com/story/farmer-cuts-off-right-arm-with-pocket-knife-to-save-life) I'd probably rule that if the target isn't resisting the effort, you could probably do it with a cumulative 3x...?

Yes, one could go far, far down the rabbit hole of simulationism making specific exceptions and detailed effects but this is a compromise between playability and reasonable realism.

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On 4/5/2019 at 5:47 PM, styopa said:

No body part can 'pass on' to body hp anything over 2x that part.**

Actually this is what myself and few other used to think what was written in RQ2. As youngsters we skim read and missed the distinction in the wording between Hit locations and limbs. I think RQG has helped make this distinction a bit more obvious with the bulleted points ( though admittedly  its taken this discussion to make me see the rules as written in RQG) 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 1/29/2019 at 9:52 PM, trystero said:

Here's my summary of how I think damage effects actually work by hit location. Interested to see whether this is how everyone else parses the rules.

Damage < Location HP

  • All Hit Locations: No effect beyond total HP loss.

Damage >= Location HP

  • Arm: Arm is unusable; adventurer drops anything held with it.
  • Leg: Leg is unusable; adventurer falls prone, takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds.
  • Abdomen: Both legs are unusable, adventurer falls prone and takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds. Adventurer bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless abdomen is treated or healed.
  • Chest: Adventurer falls prone, can take no actions, bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless chest is treated or healed.
  • Head: Adventurer is unconscious, dies in 5 minutes unless head is treated or healed.

Damage >= 2 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, adventurer is unconscious, bleeds 1 HP/round until location is treated or healed.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

Damage >= 3 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; limb is severed or maimed, adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, adventurer dies instantly.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

 

OK heres my edited summary of what i strongly feel is RAW now (if i can say that):

Damage < Location HP

  • All Hit Locations: No effect beyond total HP loss.

Damage >= Location HP

  • Arm: Arm is unusable; adventurer drops anything held with it.
  • Leg: Leg is unusable; adventurer falls prone, takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds.
  • Abdomen: Both legs are unusable, adventurer falls prone and takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds. Adventurer bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless abdomen is treated or healed.
  • Chest: Adventurer falls prone, can take no actions, bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless chest is treated or healed.
  • Head: Adventurer is unconscious, dies in 5 minutes unless head is treated or healed.

Damage >= 2 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, ignore  HP loss to limb in excess of 2 × location HP, ; adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Further hits to the limb beyond x2 will only pass on damage to Total hit points. Note the Maximum damage from a single blow to a limb is limited to x2 the limbs hit points, which can pass onto Total hitpoints.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, or cumulative hits, adventurer is unconscious, bleeds 1 HP/round until location is treated or healed.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

Damage >= 3 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; limb is severed or maimed, adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Remember no need to record damage to a limb (only Total Hit points) beyond x2, hence why only a single hit will sever a limb and not cumulative hits.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, adventurer dies instantly.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

 

  • This is based on limbs having a x2 max cap to damage they can receive, and also a x2 cap max damage they can receive from a single blow.
  • Head, chest, and abdomen locations do not have a cap to damage that they can receive from a single blow.
  • So wounds for limbs are tracked up to x2, and wounds for other locations - head chest and abdomen are tracked up to x3
  • The x2 damage effect for limbs can be triggered from cumulative hits, as it's stated "An adventurer cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg from a single blow." So it stands to reason that x2 can be reached with cumulative hits, but not beyond that limit.
  • It is only the x3 severing effect specifically for limbs, that has the peculiarity of needing the damage to be from a single hit.  Which nicely simulates a big chop :) 

I feel pretty confident now that this is the full story. But obviously we shall wait to see what a considered opinion from Jason Durall says , if its different then we're in errata territory.

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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@Jason Durall Not sure if you've registered this in the second printing?... but this example on p147 of RQG is clearly wrong:

 

Quote

Example: Harmast has 4 hit points in the head and a total of 10 hit points. He takes 10 points of damage in a single blow. His armor protection (1 point) is subtracted, meaning he has suffered 9 points of damage in the head. He takes 9 points of damage to the head, which is more than twice his total for the head hit location, but less than three times. It knocks him out. Harmast is now unconscious, with 2 total hit points remaining and will lose 1 hit points each melee round until First Aid or healing magic is applied.

It should be:

" ...with 1 total hit point remaining and will lose 1 hit point each melee round until First Aid or healing magic is applied."

or alternatively change one of the other values to make this example work

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 4/7/2019 at 11:59 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

 

OK heres my edited summary of what i strongly feel is RAW now (if i can say that):

Damage < Location HP

  • All Hit Locations: No effect beyond total HP loss.

Damage >= Location HP

  • Arm: Arm is unusable; adventurer drops anything held with it.
  • Leg: Leg is unusable; adventurer falls prone, takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds.
  • Abdomen: Both legs are unusable, adventurer falls prone and takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds. Adventurer bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless abdomen is treated or healed.
  • Chest: Adventurer falls prone, can take no actions, bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless chest is treated or healed.
  • Head: Adventurer is unconscious, dies in 5 minutes unless head is treated or healed.

Damage >= 2 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Further hits to the limb beyond x2 will only pass on damage to Total hit points
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, or cumulative hits, adventurer is unconscious, bleeds 1 HP/round until location is treated or healed.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

Damage >= 3 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; limb is severed or maimed, adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Remember no need to record damage to a limb (only Total Hit points) beyond x2, hence why only a single hit will sever a limb and not cumulative hits.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, adventurer dies instantly.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

 

  • This is based on limbs having a x2 max cap to damage they can receive, and also a x2 cap max damage they can receive from a single blow.
  • Head, chest, and abdomen locations do not have a cap to damage that they can receive from a single blow.
  • So wounds for limbs are tracked up to x2, and wounds for other locations - head chest and abdomen are tracked up to x3
  • The x2 damage effect for limbs can be triggered from cumulative hits, as it's stated "An adventurer cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg from a single blow." So it stands to reason that x2 can be reached with cumulative hits, but not beyond that limit.
  • It is only the x3 severing effect specifically for limbs, that has the peculiarity of needing the damage to be from a single hit.  Which nicely simulates a big chop :) 

I feel pretty confident now that this is the full story. But obviously we shall wait to see what a considered opinion from Jason Durall says , if its different then we're in errata territory.

With this reading in mind it’s worth looking back at RQ2 (the chassis which RQG is built from). The reasoning for “limbs” not being able to take more then x2 in a single hit is given as:

”A modern, high velocity, bullet, hitting a limb hard enough to put it out of action, will probably kill the owner of the limb by hydrostatic shock. The slower moving ancient weapons do not have this effect. Therefore a character cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg from a single blow.”

RuneQuest Classic p20

With the reasoning explained I think it’s easier to accept the same ruling in RQG. 

It goes on to say:

“Thus a 2 point arm hit for 5 points will only take 4 points of damage off the total Hit Points, the remaining point of damage having no effect. Further blows to the arm will affect the Hit Points of the character.”

Its the same ruling that is used in RQG.

The only difference in RQG is you have a x3 threshold in place of RQ2’s 6pts past the x2 limit in a single blow for severing/maiming limbs

Edit: Apart from the above it’s the same set of rules and outcomes. In fact I’m beginning to wonder whether RQ2 explained it better?  RQG is more exhaustive mentioning rules details for head, chest and abdomen which are only really inferred in RQ2.

Most importantly RQ2 explains the reasoning for the different rulings for limb damage, which I now feel after this discussion is an omission from RQG. 

 

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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@Jason DurallSo my take away from this long discussion is:

1. The omission of the reasoning for there being different damage rules to limbs specifically, is a barrier to the comprehension of this section - In contrast RQ2 included an explanation.

2. The reading of First Aid skill adds confusion because it is used on each individual hit/wound. With limbs, after the x2 has been reached you no longer track/count damage to limbs, only to Total Hit points. So further hits to an arm past x2 can no longer technically be healed with first aid - at least on a straight forward reading of the rule. 

Fist aid was designed to work with RQ3, but feels a little disjointed as written with RQG, and perhaps adds more unnecessary granularity by having to track individual wounds for future healing?

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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4 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

@Jason DurallSo my take away from this long discussion is:

1. The omission of the reasoning for there being different damage rules to limbs specifically, is a barrier to the comprehension of this section - In contrast RQ2 included an explanation.

2. The reading of First Aid skill adds confusion because it is used on each individual hit/wound. With limbs, after the x2 has been reached you no longer track/count damage to limbs, only to Total Hit points. So further hits to an arm past x2 can no longer technically be healed with first aid - at least on a straight forward reading of the rule. 

Fist aid was designed to work with RQ3, but feels a little disjointed as written with RQG, and perhaps adds more unnecessary granularity by having to track individual wounds for future healing?

Yeah, I feel I might stick with first aid just stopping bleeding. 

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I long ago house ruled First Aid so it could only be used once against each location, not against each wound/injury.

It cuts down on lots of bookkeeping but still makes it a useful skill.

 

 

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On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 12:03 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Damage >= 2 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Further hits to the limb beyond x2 will only pass on damage to Total hit points
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

Ok, I may be being a bit dense here but:

Bazza has 14 Total Hit Points (THP) and thus normally has 4 HP in his left arm.  He is currently injured with his arm at -2 (i.e. 6 points of damage).  If his arm gets hit for another 4 points of damage, how much damage does he take?  Is it: 

  1. Both his left arm and THP are reduced by 2 or
  2. Both his left arm and THP are reduced by 4 or
  3. His left arm is reduced by 2 and his THP by 4 or
  4. His left arm is reduced by 4 and his THP by 2 or
  5. Something else?

 

Thanks

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

3. His left arm is reduced by 2 and his THP by 4 

It’s number 3. 

The arm can’t go beyond x2 damage, but damage upto a maximum of x2 the limbs hitpoints will still be passed onto THP from a single hit.

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 4/7/2019 at 8:59 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

 

OK heres my edited summary of what i strongly feel is RAW now (if i can say that):

Damage < Location HP

  • All Hit Locations: No effect beyond total HP loss.

Damage >= Location HP

  • Arm: Arm is unusable; adventurer drops anything held with it.
  • Leg: Leg is unusable; adventurer falls prone, takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds.
  • Abdomen: Both legs are unusable, adventurer falls prone and takes no action this round. May fight from prone position in following rounds. Adventurer bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless abdomen is treated or healed.
  • Chest: Adventurer falls prone, can take no actions, bleeds to death in 10 minutes unless chest is treated or healed.
  • Head: Adventurer is unconscious, dies in 5 minutes unless head is treated or healed.

Damage >= 2 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Further hits to the limb beyond x2 will only pass on damage to Total hit points
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, or cumulative hits, adventurer is unconscious, bleeds 1 HP/round until location is treated or healed.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

Damage >= 3 × Location HP

  • Arm or Leg:
    • If limb suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP; limb is severed or maimed, adventurer is incapacitated and can take no action beyond healing attempts. Remember no need to record damage to a limb (only Total Hit points) beyond x2, hence why only a single hit will sever a limb and not cumulative hits.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.
  • Abdomen, Chest, or Head:
    • If location suffered 3 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, adventurer dies instantly.
    • Otherwise, no further effect.

 

  • This is based on limbs having a x2 max cap to damage they can receive, and also a x2 cap max damage they can receive from a single blow.
  • Head, chest, and abdomen locations do not have a cap to damage that they can receive from a single blow.
  • So wounds for limbs are tracked up to x2, and wounds for other locations - head chest and abdomen are tracked up to x3
  • The x2 damage effect for limbs can be triggered from cumulative hits, as it's stated "An adventurer cannot take more than twice the possible points of damage in an arm or leg from a single blow." So it stands to reason that x2 can be reached with cumulative hits, but not beyond that limit.
  • It is only the x3 severing effect specifically for limbs, that has the peculiarity of needing the damage to be from a single hit.  Which nicely simulates a big chop :) 

I feel pretty confident now that this is the full story. But obviously we shall wait to see what a considered opinion from Jason Durall says , if its different then we're in errata territory.

This is also  exactly how I read the rules. Nice summary.

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6 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

This is also  exactly how I read the rules. Nice summary

Yes thanks - that’s how I read it. Pretty sure that’s all right now.

I do think that the RQG text misses out on the explanation for the crunchier rules around “limbs”, which is explained in RQ2.

Also it hasn’t helped that there are some mistakes in the core rules questions answers from @Jason Durall which misses the distinction with differing rules for “limbs” - Understandable though with the amount of questions thrown his way, and I do really appreciate the time he’s taken there to answer questions.

i think those two points, combined with perhaps the rules for first Aid, and us grognards having a blind eye to some rules details has led to this really long topic. :) 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 8:25 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

It’s number 3. 

The arm can’t go beyond x2 damage, but damage upto a maximum of x2 the limbs hitpoints will still be passed onto THP from a single hit.

 

So based on this, if Bazza's arm was at -3 (7 points damage to a 4 point arm) and his arm was hit for an another 10 points damage:

His arm would be reduced to -4 HP (only one point more damage) because it can't go beyond X2 damage.

His Total Hit Points would be reduced by 8 HP because up to twice the arm's 4 HP can be passed on to General Hit Points as damage from one blow.  This results in a total of 15 (existing 7 plus 8 new damage) Total Hit Point damage and Bazza will die at the end of the round.

 

Is that correct?

 

Thanks again

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51 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

 

So based on this, if Bazza's arm was at -3 (7 points damage to a 4 point arm) and his arm was hit for an another 10 points damage:

His arm would be reduced to -4 HP (only one point more damage) because it can't go beyond X2 damage.

His Total Hit Points would be reduced by 8 HP because up to twice the arm's 4 HP can be passed on to General Hit Points as damage from one blow.  This results in a total of 15 (existing 7 plus 8 new damage) Total Hit Point damage and Bazza will die at the end of the round.

 

Is that correct?

 

Thanks again

That’s it. You got it 

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11 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

That’s it. You got it 

The reason why I was trying to nail it down, is because that is not what is written in the earlier posts:

Quote

 

Arm or Leg:

  • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from a single hit or cumulative hits, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP

 

Reading that, if we try and determine the effect of cumulative hits we get:

Quote

 

Arm or Leg:

  • If limb suffered 2 × location-HP damage or more from … cumulative hits, ignore total HP loss in excess of 2 × location HP

 


Thus stating that even cumulative hits will not pass a combined total of more than 2 X location's HP on to total HP.

Thank you for clearing up what it is intended to say (and I agree that the interpretation you intended to write is the correct one), but the section I've quoted does not mean what it is intended to mean.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

The reason why I was trying to nail it down, is because that is not what is written in the earlier posts:

Reading that, if we try and determine the effect of cumulative hits we get:


Thus stating that even cumulative hits will not pass a combined total of more than 2 X location's HP on to total HP.

Thank you for clearing up what it is intended to say (and I agree that the interpretation you intended to write is the correct one), but the section I've quoted does not mean what it is intended to mean.

 

Ah yes I missed that I shall try and edit that. It shouldn’t suggest ignore hit point loss to total hitpoints

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Thanks.  Your responses have been extremely helpful.

 

btw, one of the things I get paid to do is run training courses.  A couple of these courses I have written then modified many times over the past 20+ years and are on a topic I have an encyclopedic knowledge of.  Even after more than 20 years I still occasionally find bits that are wrong because I knew what I meant when I wrote them, but they don't actually say exactly what I intended.  And of course because I wrote it I generally don't spot the error.

There is a reason good technical writers are worth their weight in gold.  It is a really hard thing to do.  While it is easy to pick flaws in what has been written by the authors of RQG or the posts by those helping to explain things, it is really hard to actually do it better than them.

Thanks again for your invaluable contributions.

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23 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Thanks.  Your responses have been extremely helpful.

 

btw, one of the things I get paid to do is run training courses.  A couple of these courses I have written then modified many times over the past 20+ years and are on a topic I have an encyclopedic knowledge of.  Even after more than 20 years I still occasionally find bits that are wrong because I knew what I meant when I wrote them, but they don't actually say exactly what I intended.  And of course because I wrote it I generally don't spot the error.

There is a reason good technical writers are worth their weight in gold.  It is a really hard thing to do.  While it is easy to pick flaws in what has been written by the authors of RQG or the posts by those helping to explain things, it is really hard to actually do it better than them.

Thanks again for your invaluable contributions.

And thanks for pointing out the wording, I wouldn’t have noticed it otherwise. 

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27 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

I have added a file to the Downloads section detailing my understanding of how damage works. 

 

It is available at Effects of Damage

 

I'm sure there are errors in it so please notify of any you find.

Thanks. A good help.

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Had a quick look at Jason Durall's core question thread. My question has been deleted, but I think that there may have been some editing of the contradictory answers(?) A  read through seems to be fairly clear on damage to limbs now, and in line with what the core book says. 

 

 

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