MW is currently 50% off at Chaosium.com

[MOB]

As announced here on BRP Central back in 2016, Chaosium won't be releasing anything new for Magic World. However, we know that Magic World has a small but devoted following, and we have no issue with Magic World continuing on as licensed/fan-produced product. And we will continue to sell existing Magic World releases at chaosium.com and DriveThruRPG.

In fact, to mark the new review on RPG.Net, MAGIC WORLD and ADVANCED SORCERY are both 50% off at Chaosium.com:

http://bit.ly/2SNNOml

 

[David Howard]

Licensed? Who is producing licensed products for MW?

 

[Coronoides]

3 hours ago, David Howard said:

Licensed? Who is producing licensed products for MW?

 

No one (yet) as far as I know.

[smiorgan]

12 hours ago, Coronoides said:

No one (yet) as far as I know.

Exactly.

BTW, Chaosium's stance on MW has been made clear in many many posts on these forums. Here's a summary:

1. They will not continue to develop MW products as they have other priorities (CoC, RQG, etc.)

2. They continue to sell MW PDFs and physical books (apparently the original print run is far from exhausted).

3.  They will not make MW OGL (that would pretty much make BRP OGL!).

4. They are ready to license third party MW publications and give permission for fanmade products.

I find it pretty clear and understandable. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by smiorgan

[Thot]

But also: They will happily support people who want to do something based on Magic World. So, anyone wanting to do something with it, I bet they'll give you the license for cheap! At the very least, it's worth asking.

[NickMiddleton]

1 hour ago, Thot said:

But also: They will happily support people who want to do something based on Magic World. So, anyone wanting to do something with it, I bet they'll give you the license for cheap! At the very least, it's worth asking.

https://www.chaosium.com/fan-use-and-licensing/

[MOB]

6 hours ago, smiorgan said:

Exactly.

BTW, Chaosium's stance on MW has been made clear in many many posts on these forums. Here's a summary:

1. They will not continue to develop MW products as they have other priorities (CoC, RQG, etc.)

2. They continue to sell MW PDFs and physical books (apparently the original print run is far from exhausted).

3.  They will not make MW OGL (that would pretty much make BRP OGL!).

4. They are ready to license third party MW publications and give permission for fanmade products.

I find it pretty clear and understandable. 

100% correct.

3 hours ago, Thot said:

But also: They will happily support people who want to do something based on Magic World. So, anyone wanting to do something with it, I bet they'll give you the license for cheap! At the very least, it's worth asking.

Also 100% correct. 

[seneschal]

So ... load up on extra copies and start pumping out those licensed supplements!

[Thot]

8 hours ago, seneschal said:

So ... load up on extra copies and start pumping out those licensed supplements!

Do you want to write one? Because for a license, they need a licensee...

Edited January 13, 2019 by Thot

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Thot said:

Do you want to write one? Because for a license, they need a licensee...

And this is the problem. Lots of people, apparently, want MW material but nobody is prepared to apply for a Licence.

[NickMiddleton]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

And this is the problem. Lots of people, apparently, want MW material but nobody is prepared to apply for a Licence.

Lots of people post stuff in the forums or to the downloads section. Doing something under the Small Publisher Limted or Commercial licenses would be a more substantial commitment: the former has an explicit upfront fee associated for example.

Edited January 13, 2019 by NickMiddleton

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, NickMiddleton said:

Lots of people post stuff in the forums or to the downloads section. Doing something under the Small Publisher Limted or Commercial licenses would be a more substantial commitment: the former has a explicit upfront fee associated for example.

It's a shame, because it is a Catch-22 situation. Magic World isn't supported because there clearly isn't a demand, as nobody applies for a Licence. People don't apply for a licence because there are upfront costs and the returns probably wouldn't be great.

It may well be that posting in forums and on fan websites is the way forward for Magic World.

[Thot]

Actually, the upfront cost of publishing something on drivethroughrpg is not that high, if you can live without expensive art.

[NickMiddleton]

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It's a shame, because it is a Catch-22 situation. Magic World isn't supported because there clearly isn't a demand, as nobody applies for a Licence. People don't apply for a licence because there are upfront costs and the returns probably wouldn't be great.

The SPLL iirc is time limited (3 year period - I assume it could be renewed if both parties wished) and limited to a gross revenue of $2000 per year and a fee of $100 per year (or $200 for full three year period upfront)... the logical consequences of that is a project needs to sink that $200 plus any costs for art / layout etc. Not insurmountable, but non-trivial by anyone's standards.

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It may well be that posting in forums and on fan websites is the way forward for Magic World.

Indeed. But the allure of "proper" "real" support (PDF / PoD books via DTR at the very least) is very strong. A substantial portion of gamers have always had this weird obsession that a game is some how less valid of there is not active provision of new material from some sort of official endorsed source.

[NickMiddleton]

18 minutes ago, Thot said:

Actually, the upfront cost of publishing something on drivethroughrpg is not that high, if you can live without expensive art.

One cannot use  DTR ( or Lulu or similar distribution platforms) with the Fan Policy - it specifically prohibits them. So would have to be full commercial (I think we can all agree largely beyond the scope of what we are discussing here right now) or the Small Publisher Limited License. That has a flat $100 per year up front fee (or $200 for the full three years if paid in advance). Not a huge sum - but it is per project.

[Thot]

Why would a full commercial license be beyond the scope of what we're discussing?

[NickMiddleton]

39 minutes ago, Thot said:

Why would a full commercial license be beyond the scope of what we're discussing?

Well, speaking purely for myself, having actually read the section on Chaosium's web site on Commercial Licenses, I had taken the tenor of conversation here so far to be entirely of the order of a few fans / former contributors get together to get some previously unreleased material out.

Chaosium's own thinking on Commercial Licenses (https://www.chaosium.com/commercial-licensing/ ) indicate that for such a license they are expecting (and only interested in entertaining) substantial serious and credible proposals.

[Thot]

Founding a publishing company isn't a big deal. Depending on your location, there may be some paperwork involved, but it's not hard to do; governments want you to succeed, after all.

If you want to do it, and keep it up, don't let that legal stuff scare you away.

 

[Marcus Bone]

1 minute ago, Thot said:

Founding a publishing company isn't a big deal. Depending on your location, there may be some paperwork involved, but it's not hard to do; governments want you to succeed, after all.

If you want to do it, and keep it up, don't let that legal stuff scare you away.

 

Having investigated an MW licence and then done the sums on estimated sales vs cost and effort, it doesn't quite work out (remembering that this ain't going to be a full time gig, and you're restricted in profit)...  Might be better to go do an OpenQuest route... or a different open system (for example Savage Worlds with its much larger fan base). 

That does sound very negative, but I do appreciate what Chaosium is doing with the Fan/Commercial licences, it's just that for a game with a limited foundation as MW I can't see it really working as yet. I'm sure someone, sometime will take the leap and grab a licence (hell, it might even be me), but until then...

Marcus

[Thot]

That's a pity.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Thot said:

Why would a full commercial license be beyond the scope of what we're discussing?

It's mostly a matter of cost in relative to return, and it's not unique to Chasoium products.

Typically, you have to see quite a few copies of something to break even with the licensing fee. That's on top of the time and effort it takes to produce the product in the first place. That's why most independent companies have their own in house system, use something OGL, or do something for a big game, such ads D&D, where the fan base is larger (and so the potential return is greater).

From a company's perspective it's a bit of a minefield. On the one hand they want fan support and commercial support for their products as it promotes the game and unilaterally makes it more profitable for the original company, but on the other hand, they also need to protect their intellectual property. On top of that, there is the fact that a company can't actually protect it's game mechanics. 

So it's a tough spot for everyone.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Rick Meints
blank lines removed

[Marcus Bone]

30 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

From a company's perspective it's a bit of a minefield. On the one hand they want fan support and commercial support for their products as it promotes the game and unilaterally makes it more profitable for the original company, but on the other hand, they also need to protect their intellectual property. On top of that, there is the fact that a company can't actually protect it's game mechanics. 

Totally agree! It's a hard line to row. 

[Rick Meints]

Out of curiosity, I see a number of people in this thread use phrases like "lots of people" and "loads of people" when it comes to the number of people interested in purchasing MW material.

Anyone care to put an approximate number on what they feel "lots of people" represents? 10 people, 50 people, 200 people, more?

As for the three types of licenses:

1. Fan Use. Quite simply, if you don't want to make any money, we don't need to either.

2. Limited license for one year ($100) or three years ($200). You can make a bit of money to cover your costs without the hassle of sales reports and royalty payments. You can make a bit of money, and so do we. If you blow past the sales cap of $2000 we would happily switch you over to a commercial license and let you carry on.

3. Commercial License. You pay no money up front, by the way. You sign a contract with us, and most deals do not take that much time to set up. You pay royalties (very small percentage) based on sales. If you want to know how our licensees feel about how well it works for them, please ask them. These deals are not sealed with an NDA. 

One of the benefits of the Commercial License is that we happily advertise your products in our Ab Chaos newsletter. We want you to succeed. 

[soltakss]

22 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

Anyone care to put an approximate number on what they feel "lots of people" represents? 10 people, 50 people, 200 people, more?

Tens, maybe dozens - Lots.

Honestly, I don't have sales figures for Magic World.

It isn't really my cup of tea, really, no hit locations, variable armour and so on, but I get the feeling that as many people like it as, say, OpenQuest.

Again, I have no sales figures for OpenQuest, so cannot justify anything I have said.

[Marcus Bone]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

Out of curiosity, I see a number of people in this thread use phrases like "lots of people" and "loads of people" when it comes to the number of people interested in purchasing MW material.

Anyone care to put an approximate number on what they feel "lots of people" represents? 10 people, 50 people, 200 people, more?

As for the three types of licenses:

1. Fan Use. Quite simply, if you don't want to make any money, we don't need to either.

2. Limited license for one year ($100) or three years ($200). You can make a bit of money to cover your costs without the hassle of sales reports and royalty payments. You can make a bit of money, and so do we. If you blow past the sales cap of $2000 we would happily switch you over to a commercial license and let you carry on.

3. Commercial License. You pay no money up front, by the way. You sign a contract with us, and most deals do not take that much time to set up. You pay royalties (very small percentage) based on sales. If you want to know how our licensees feel about how well it works for them, please ask them. These deals are not sealed with an NDA. 

One of the benefits of the Commercial License is that we happily advertise your products in our Ab Chaos newsletter. We want you to succeed. 

Hi Rick, 

Looking at the various data points I know of (none being very scientific, sorry). I'd say the number is in the dozens - say up to 50 dedicated fans in its present sent form... twice that many curious bystanders. I'd be interest to know MW sale numbers over its lifetime myself... couldn't be too high I suspect.

As for the main setting (Southern Reach), I do think a number of fans have a bit of a bad taste in their mouths over the discontinuation of the line - nothing personal against Chaosium as it makes sense commercial and practically (you and the team have done fantastically to revive the company and raise the level of professionalism) - but the community was very 'dedicated' to the structure that was in place back then!   

Thanks, also for the clarification re: the Licenses, your explanation of the Commercial version definitely makes it more appealing... 

Marcus