Original Trollpak (2e) Previous Experience

[Tywyll]

So I read in a forum that Trollpak had a different Previous Experience system from RQ2. I know that the book is going to be reprinted for RQC, but until then, does anyone know how it worked? I would be very interested in hearing about the specifics. 

[trystero]

High-level overview: each profession has a list of eight skill bonuses, like +10% Insect Care or +05% any non-missile weapon. You get those bonuses for each full year of previous experience spent in that profession, with the limit that once your skill hits 50% or better you have to make an experience roll to get the bonus. The rules recommend allowing no more than five years' worth of previous experience using this system.

This is somewhat like RQ3's previous-experience system, in that you gain a flat number of percentiles per year of experience in a profession-dictated set of skills, but the percentile values in Trollpak are higher (5 or 10 percentiles per year, where RQ3 had 1–5 percentiles per year) and the suggested five-year limit and addition of the experience-roll mechanism at 50% means that you can't just age your way into Rune Lord status.

[soltakss]

As tryesto says, RQ2 Trollpack was on the way to the system used in RQ3. 

RQ2 Previous Experience was flawed in many ways, but the system in Trollpack was better.

[Tywyll]

Thanks for that! I don't suppose anyone would be willing to write out the professions? Are there a lot of them?

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Thanks for that! I don't suppose anyone would be willing to write out the professions? Are there a lot of them?

Is RQ2 Trollpack available in the RQ Classics line? I can't remember if that is one of the ones still to be done.

[Tywyll]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Is RQ2 Trollpack available in the RQ Classics line? I can't remember if that is one of the ones still to be done.

It is supposed to be but that was like, what, years ago?

[PhilHibbs]

14 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Is RQ2 Trollpack available in the RQ Classics line? I can't remember if that is one of the ones still to be done.

Interesting question. The campaign did reach the $205k stretch goal for Trollpak, but the page does not say "Achieved" next to it.

[Oracle]

As far as I know all stretch goals except for QuestWorld have been achieved and will be released. Current state is, that all stretch goals are available already up to Griffin Mountain plus Borderlands (and the RQ Companion in a not yet final version)  with Pavis, Big Rubble and Trollpak still outstanding. Release frequency has been raised during the last months ...

[trystero]

22 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I don't suppose anyone would be willing to write out the professions?

I wouldn't; I think that would go beyond the limits of fair use. But let's hope the Classic Edition version is out soon...

[g33k]

On 1/27/2019 at 7:42 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Interesting question. The campaign did reach the $205k stretch goal for Trollpak, but the page does not say "Achieved" next to it.

Huh.  I presume that's an oversight, as @Rick Meints has been talking about progress on Trollpak as one of the pieces they're working on.

I'm guessing KS doesn't have automation driving the process; the project creator must need to manually set the "Achieved" marker (which seems kinda sily not to automate, for just this sort of reason).

[Rick Meints]

Are people actually worried that because a stretch goal was reached, but not marked as "achieved" that we are not producing that PDF? wow...

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

Are people actually worried that because a stretch goal was reached, but not marked as "achieved" that we are not producing that PDF? wow...

I just didn't know. I hadn't seen anything about Trollpak, so I asked. No panic.

[Atgxtg]

On 1/26/2019 at 5:27 PM, Tywyll said:

Thanks for that! I don't suppose anyone would be willing to write out the professions? Are there a lot of them?

I'd be willing to write out one, as an example. I think that would be considered fair use. I'd even let you pick which one. If you want I'll look for the box set and post a list of the professions for you to pick from. 

That's assuming no one from Chaosium as any objections.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

Are people actually worried that because a stretch goal was reached, but not marked as "achieved" that we are not producing that PDF? wow...

As a backer, I am not worried.

Other folks' perspectives (if they aren't backers) may  reasonably  (IMHO) differ.   If they AREN'T backers (or haven't followed the backers updates regularly) there's ... kinda a LOT of content to wade through.  Given that Trollpak doesn't show on Chaosium.com, and it's not marked as "achieved" on the KS.... it's not actually unreasonable to wonder if it's coming.  A literal reading of Chaosium's readily-available material (q.g. the items cited above) strongly suggests that it it not.

 

Given the way the new regime pulled Chaosium's nuts out of the fire & saved the company from ignominious deathspiral -- over fulfilling a Kickstarter, no less! -- I have 101% confidence that (in time) nuChaosium will fulfill on this one, too.

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by g33k

[Tywyll]

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd be willing to write out one, as an example. I think that would be considered fair use. I'd even let you pick which one. If you want I'll look for the box set and post a list of the professions for you to pick from. 

That's assuming no one from Chaosium as any objections.

Yes please. Would you mind telling me the professions?

 

[Atgxtg]

30 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Yes please. Would you mind telling me the professions?

Okay, there are different professions for Trollkin, Dark trolls, Mistress race and such. You roll randomly, with some modifiers. Some of the trollkin professions, such as "Food" don't count for much either. But the professions with Previous experience are: Hunter/Gatherer, Insectherd, Brewer, Overseer (of Trollkin), Herbalist, Chanter, Nurse (male)/Breeder (Female), Warrior (full-time), Shaman, Trader, Healer, Shaper in rock, lead or bronze (smith), Painter/SculpterTeacher, Alchemist, Translator, Boattroll, and Noble/Ruler.

They all work about the same way too. For every year in the profession, you got to add 10% to three skills, and 5% to five others, although  some profession did swap out some skills for potion POT or magic. If a skill was at 50% or higher, a experience roll was required to get the bonus-so someone who spent ten years as a warrior wouldn't automatically  master a weapon. 

BTW, in case your interested ( was) I checked the RQ3 version of TrollPak, and they just adapted the professions to RQ3, which wasn't all that tough, since it was practically the same method to begin with, just different values.

So pick one, and  and I will post an example.

 

[Tywyll]

Noble please. Thank you!

[Tywyll]

Considering how close this is to RQ3, I wonder why they ditched it for the weaker RQ3 version.

[Atgxtg]

  

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Noble please. Thank you!

Okay, here is your one  sample.

Noble/Ruler:

+10% to Oratory, Primary weapon, Evaluate Treasure

+5% to Evaluate Trade Goods, Read/Write Darktongue, secondary weapon, speak other language, any skill desired

 

and here is the RQ3 version for comparison

NOBLE: Spear Darktongue x2, Speak Other Language x1, Orate x4, Animal Lore x2, Evaluate x3, Plant Lore x2, Read Darktongue x2, Troll Lore x2, World Lore x2, X2, Ceremony x2, Primary Weapon Attack x4, Primary Weapon Parry or Shield Parry x4, Missile Weapon Attack x3, or Secondary Weapon Attack x2 or Parry x1 

 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Considering how close this is to RQ3, I wonder why they ditched it for the weaker RQ3 version.

I can think of a few reasons:

• They needed to keep RQ3 Troll experience in line with the other professions and races in RQ3., so they couldn't have a profession that gives +10% per year when RQ3 only gives +5% max.
• The roll to get the points for skills over 50% could lead to a wide variance between "starting" characters. If you take two characters and give them each 10 years previous experience, one could end up with a weapon at over 140% (with modifiers and lots of luck), while another could start at only 50%. That's a huge variance, and can be a tough challenge for a GM to deal with when writing adventures. 
• Issuing previous experience in 5% and 10% increments doesn't allow for much variation between skill scores. A skill either gets 5%, 10% or nothing.
• Issuing previous experience in 5% and 10% increments doesn't allow for many skills to be improved (only eight). That sort of forces them to focus only on the most significant skills. The ability to break things down in 1% increments lets them expand things to cover more skills. So things like Perception skills and First Aid tend to get neglected unless they are a primary focus for a character (i.e. Hunter or Healer). Just look at how many more skills the RQ3 Noble gets. The RQ2 Noble doesn't even get to improve his ability to parry!
• They probably wanted to keep the starting skill scores a bit lower. Prior to Elric! skills over 100% were only reached after considerable playing time. 

[Tywyll]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

  

Okay, here is your one  sample.

 

Thank you very much!

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

I can think of a few reasons:

• They needed to keep RQ3 Troll experience in line with the other professions and races in RQ3., so they couldn't have a profession that gives +10% per year when RQ3 only gives +5% max.

Sorry, no, what I meant was...why ditch this system for everyone.

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• The roll to get the points for skills over 50% could lead to a wide variance between "starting" characters. If you take two characters and give them each 10 years previous experience, one could end up with a weapon at over 140% (with modifiers and lots of luck), while another could start at only 50%. That's a huge variance, and can be a tough challenge for a GM to deal with when writing adventures. 

Easy enough to cap (no starting skills over X% for example)

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• Issuing previous experience in 5% and 10% increments doesn't allow for much variation between skill scores. A skill either gets 5%, 10% or nothing.

That's true, but the AH system of x1% per year ends up providing pointless bonuses. An average +7% to a skill is basically pointless. 

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• Issuing previous experience in 5% and 10% increments doesn't allow for many skills to be improved (only eight). That sort of forces them to focus only on the most significant skills. The ability to break things down in 1% increments lets them expand things to cover more skills. So things like Perception skills and First Aid tend to get neglected unless they are a primary focus for a character (i.e. Hunter or Healer). Just look at how many more skills the RQ3 Noble gets. The RQ2 Noble doesn't even get to improve his ability to parry!

Well, it allows as many as they decide to give the bonuses to. I mean, look at RQG for ex. Limiting previous experience to 5 or 8 skills was a pretty poor design choice to start with. 

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• They probably wanted to keep the starting skill scores a bit lower. Prior to Elric! skills over 100% were only reached after considerable playing time. 

That's fair. But I think they could have accomplished that while still allowing characters to be more capable. Random AH RQ characters are pretty weak sauce. Stronger than RQ2 of course, but still weak.

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Sorry, no, what I meant was...why ditch this system for everyone.

Probably because they moved from a base 5% increase to a true % (base 1%) increase system. If you look carefully, skills are much more fine grained in RQ3.

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

That's true, but the AH system of x1% per year ends up providing pointless bonuses. An average +7% to a skill is basically pointless. 

Not pointless. The gritty nature was taking over... Zero to Hero; you also can get more skill differentiation.

Also, if you are creating a % system, why not use % (adding at base 5%, your essentially creating a d20 system using different dice).

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Thank you very much!

Sorry, no, what I meant was...why ditch this system for everyone.

I don't follow you. Trollpak came out long afdter RQ/RQ2, so it was a departure from how other characters were created. So the question might be to ask why did the ditch thier existing system for this one? 

I suspect they were trying to come up with something that they could vary the amount of previous experience. 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Easy enough to cap (no starting skills over X% for example)

Yup. That's exactly what they did in RQ3 for most skills. 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

That's true, but the AH system of x1% per year ends up providing pointless bonuses. An average +7% to a skill is basically pointless. 

I disagree. When skills start of at 5-15, a +7% bonus isn't pointless. Also, most skills get a x2 or x3 multiplier, and that's +14% and +21%. 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Well, it allows as many as they decide to give the bonuses to. I mean, look at RQG for ex. Limiting previous experience to 5 or 8 skills was a pretty poor design choice to start with. 

Not with RQ2 Trollpack. Characters get 55% points, broken up amongst 8 skills. The only ones who get a different number of skills give up some % points for things like potion POT or magic. 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

That's fair. But I think they could have accomplished that while still allowing characters to be more capable.

Oh I agree. I think chargen could have been better in RQ3, but I think it was an improvement over RQ2 Trollpak. Personally I think I would have preferred a short list of skills under each profession and a pool of discretionary points to help diversify characters.  

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Random AH RQ characters are pretty weak sauce. Stronger than RQ2 of course, but still weak.

I wouldn't say so. I've seen characters come out of chargen with their primary weapons maxed out. Most characters started off at 25% with their primary weapon, and usually had an attack bonus, so even an "average" warrior will be around 55% to start with a weapon. It's not Elric! skill levels, but it not supposed to be.