Why is Helamakt not more prominent in the Orlanth pantheon.

[kr0p0s]

Helamakt, The Fighting Storm, seems not to be a common sub cult of Orlanth, but has access to some fairly good magics, and appears to be fairly useful against elves in particular. Are his followers too wild and undisciplined for the settled peoples of Sartar? Would he be more prominent in Maniria as a counter the the power of the elves of Arstola . Will he be getting a writeup in the forthcoming GoG?

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

Helamakt, The Fighting Storm, seems not to be a common sub cult of Orlanth, but has access to some fairly good magics, and appears to be fairly useful against elves in particular. Are his followers too wild and undisciplined for the settled peoples of Sartar? Would he be more prominent in Maniria as a counter the the power of the elves of Arstola . Will he be getting a writeup in the forthcoming GoG?

The HeroWars/HeroQuest 1 era saw the introduction of many small sub-divisions of the greater cults.  Helamakt was one of those.  He would simply be one of the following:

• another name or title for Orlanth
• another name for Heler fighting with Orlanth
• one of the Thunder Brothers who accompany Orlanth
• a localized subcult of Orlanth found in a few clans or tribes

You will not see a writeup of him in the Gods of Glorantha.

[Tindalos]

Some subcults are anonymous, not because of their rarity, but by their ubiquity.

Helamakt is an aspect of Orlanth Thunderous devoted to fighting with his winds. Many of his holy places would be indistinguishable to the larger god. Also many Garanvuli ancestors' shrines will also be shrines to him, as Helamakt was Garan's father. (BoHM 91)

It's probably a perfectly valid thing to have a clan with a shrine to Helamakt counting as one to Orlanth Thunderous and providing Summon Air Elemental. (In the forms of Killer Rain Gale, Blinding Shadow, Searing Bolt, and Falling Wind)

(In much the same way that a shrine to the Seven Mothers which grants Mind Blast is also probably a shrine focused on Irippi Ontor, who is the mother who provides that spell for the cult. (RQ:G 304)

[kr0p0s]

What are the Blinding Shadow and Freezing Rain Gale abilities? Rune spells, Heroquest gained abilities, or cult spirits with special powers? Of the Four Winds these are not easily translatable in RQiG terms. Searing Bolt could be the rune spell Lightning and Falling Wind could be Increase Wind. Blinding Shadow seems to suggest Darkness Rune powers and Freezing Rain Gale Water Rune powers.

 

[Tindalos]

Blinding Shadow, Freezing Rain Gale, Searing Bolt, and Falling Wind are all lesser air gods (although Searing Bolt does share its name with Finovan's sword) rather than specific powers.

Although they may have their own specializations (such as the air elementals mentioned on 177 of the RuneQuest Bestiary)

[kr0p0s]

4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Blinding Shadow, Freezing Rain Gale, Searing Bolt, and Falling Wind are all lesser air gods (although Searing Bolt does share its name with Finovan's sword) rather than specific powers.

Although they may have their own specializations (such as the air elementals mentioned on 177 of the RuneQuest Bestiary)

Ok, they are specific air elementals summonable  through membership of Orlanth Thunderous (e.g. Summon Searing Bolt).  I imagine you would have to be a Rune Priest or Rune Lord to sacrifice for the spells and have a good reason for summoning them. Being important cult spirits they all would be large and near maximum characteristics for their size. I imagine, being servants of Helamakt they would be sentient and possess INT and have powers and special abilities implied in their names and descriptions.

On a  side note, the RuneQuest Bestiary mentions a slew of other Umbroli with interesting abilities (Knifewind, Breathtaker etc) . However the Windhags, pale maidens, bridgekeepers and well spirits are given no descriptions beyond their names.

Edited January 22, 2019 by kr0p0s
Additional question

[womble]

"Searing Bolt" could just be the Thunderbolt spell any Thunderous can sac for.

[davecake]

In my game, all these minor Thunder Brothers and aspects of Orlanth are all valid and exist, but may be represented in game rules variously as:

• a different name for a particular status within the Orlanth cult
• a minor sub-cult that provides a small variation on the standard powers
• the part of the cult that provides the connection with an Associated cult
• the source of a particular notable spell, and every person that knows that spell is part of that 'sub-cult'

And there isn't necessarily consistency, either. Orlanthi culture has no central control, and has much regional variation, and there myths are understood as poetic and magical, not a single rigid canonical understanding. 

So Helamakt might be used to describe:

• a warrior that is also an acolyte of Orlanth Thunderous
• A variation of Orlanth Thunderous that allows a warrior acolyte to gain access to eg the Lightning spell
• Heler as a warrior in Orlanths warband, so any Orlanthi warrior who gets the Rain spell from Heler. 

Similarly, Hedkoranth is both the source of the Thunderstone spell, and in some places may be an alternative to Destor who gets Thunderstone in place of Woad. 

[daskindt]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

In my game, all these minor Thunder Brothers and aspects of Orlanth are all valid and exist, but may be represented in game rules variously as:

• a different name for a particular status within the Orlanth cult
• a minor sub-cult that provides a small variation on the standard powers
• the part of the cult that provides the connection with an Associated cult
• the source of a particular notable spell, and every person that knows that spell is part of that 'sub-cult'

And there isn't necessarily consistency, either. Orlanthi culture has no central control, and has much regional variation, and there myths are understood as poetic and magical, not a single rigid canonical understanding. 

So Helamakt might be used to describe:

• a warrior that is also an acolyte of Orlanth Thunderous
• A variation of Orlanth Thunderous that allows a warrior acolyte to gain access to eg the Lightning spell
• Heler as a warrior in Orlanths warband, so any Orlanthi warrior who gets the Rain spell from Heler. 

Similarly, Hedkoranth is both the source of the Thunderstone spell, and in some places may be an alternative to Destor who gets Thunderstone in place of Woad. 

I’m trying to decide how to represent Ulanin the Rider’s subcult within RQG for the Red Cow campaign.

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, daskindt said:

I’m trying to decide how to represent Ulanin the Rider’s subcult within RQG for the Red Cow campaign.

Make Ulanin's worship a Balmyr hero-cult with one rune spell, related to riding. 

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Make Ulanin's worship a Balmyr hero-cult with one rune spell, related to riding. 

Yes, a hero-cult that is a sub-cult of Orlanth. Command Horse sounds appropriate. And it adds Ride to the list of Cult Skills. 

[soltakss]

On 1/21/2019 at 6:25 PM, kr0p0s said:

Why is Helamakt not more prominent in the Orlanth pantheon.

Poor man's Humakt.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Poor man's Humakt.

Now you must die....😇

[Leingod]

20 hours ago, soltakss said:

Poor man's Humakt.

Not really. Humakt lost all his Air powers when he cut his family ties.

[Sir_Godspeed]

So more of an Angry Man's Orlanth, then?

Seems to be a few of those guys floating about.

[Ali the Helering]

Loyal, deadly, suspiciously moist.... What's not to like?

As a warrior who would rather use the winds than his weaponry, a fun alternative to play.  The gender fluidity is interesting to play out, providing your game isn't being run by a killjoy.😈

[Ian Cooper]

On 1/23/2019 at 8:13 AM, davecake said:

 

• a warrior that is also an acolyte of Orlanth Thunderous
• A variation of Orlanth Thunderous that allows a warrior acolyte to gain access to eg the Lightning spell
• Heler as a warrior in Orlanths warband, so any Orlanthi warrior who gets the Rain spell from Heler. 

Similarly, Hedkoranth is both the source of the Thunderstone spell, and in some places may be an alternative to Destor who gets Thunderstone in place of Woad. 

So, it feels to me that at some point in the HW/HQ Greg felt that some of the RQ deities such as Orlanth and Ernalda, or Lodril and Dayzatar were not approached directly but through sub-cults that emphasized a smaller set of myths, virtues and powers. Some part of me suspects that this reflected a changing perspective that the Orlanth cult as we knew it in RQ, and these other major gods, were actually amalgam deities who combined the stories of a lot of God's War deities. So the **cult** of Orlanth combined stories of Vingkot, Barntar etc.  as well as Orlanth. This made gods like  the Lightbringers  and Humakt much more 'specialist' and potentially 'borrowed' from cultures that the Orlanthi contacted.

The problem was that the plethora of cults were a little bit in conflict with a more storytelling game like HQG. So we ended up  broadly defined affinities and sub-cults, with these gods unique features probably best represented as feats you can learn, which involving heroforming that particular sub-cult god as opposed to Orlanth.

I think this change was mostly better. Perhaps along the way what was lost is the idea that the Orlanth cult involves the worship of a whole host of heroes, small gods, etc that form part of the cult and are a perfect place for you to be creative.

So Helamakt would be a sub-cult, probably with some specific feats you can learn if you join the sub-cult and heroform him. Learning The Sivin Feat would certainly help elf-haters 🙂

I think there was potentially a "baby and the bath water" problem with a number of new ideas: sub-cults, three worlds, common religions where some interesting ideas were expressed that may bear re-visiting in a 'softer' way.

 

[Oracle]

By the way: Is there a way to emulate the concept of Feats available for a cult from HeroQuest Glorantha in RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha?

[Richard S.]

19 minutes ago, Oracle said:

By the way: Is there a way to emulate the concept of Feats available for a cult from HeroQuest Glorantha in RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha?

Rune Spells.

[daskindt]

1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

So, it feels to me that at some point in the HW/HQ Greg felt that some of the RQ deities such as Orlanth and Ernalda, or Lodril and Dayzatar were not approached directly but through sub-cults that emphasized a smaller set of myths, virtues and powers. Some part of me suspects that this reflected a changing perspective that the Orlanth cult as we knew it in RQ, and these other major gods, were actually amalgam deities who combined the stories of a lot of God's War deities. So the **cult** of Orlanth combined stories of Vingkot, Barntar etc.  as well as Orlanth. This made gods like  the Lightbringers  and Humakt much more 'specialist' and potentially 'borrowed' from cultures that the Orlanthi contacted.

The problem was that the plethora of cults were a little bit in conflict with a more storytelling game like HQG. So we ended up  broadly defined affinities and sub-cults, with these gods unique features probably best represented as feats you can learn, which involving heroforming that particular sub-cult god as opposed to Orlanth.

I think this change was mostly better. Perhaps along the way what was lost is the idea that the Orlanth cult involves the worship of a whole host of heroes, small gods, etc that form part of the cult and are a perfect place for you to be creative.

So Helamakt would be a sub-cult, probably with some specific feats you can learn if you join the sub-cult and heroform him. Learning The Sivin Feat would certainly help elf-haters 🙂

I think there was potentially a "baby and the bath water" problem with a number of new ideas: sub-cults, three worlds, common religions where some interesting ideas were expressed that may bear re-visiting in a 'softer' way.

 

I’ve been going back to Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe more and more lately. I’d forgotten how blown away I was by the release of these books. I consider them easily amongst the finest supplements ever released for a roleplaying game. Production values might be low, but the ideas contained within their pages are world shattering. They dive so deeply into a complex of cults for the Orlanthi people and how that all impacts the culture. Hero Wars was so refreshing in the ways it reimagined Glorantha free of the mechanical constraints of RuneQuest.

I’m certainly interested in emphasizing the many subcults and variants of the various deities and embracing the confusion and contradictions. I think the HQ cult writeups a very good, but then I find little nuggets of gold in Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe that were edited out and I mourn that they didn’t make it in the more recent cult writeups.

[Leingod]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So more of an Angry Man's Orlanth, then?

Seems to be a few of those guys floating about.

Or a particularly martial Helering.

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, Oracle said:

By the way: Is there a way to emulate the concept of Feats available for a cult from HeroQuest Glorantha in RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha?

As mentioned before they are Rune Spells.  To get the effects of HeroQuest, they probably have to be boosted with a Hero Point according to various hints dropped here and there.

[metcalph]

Thunder Rebels/Storm Tribe's chief flaw in my opinion was the clean scheme imposed on the Gods and subcults.  If I were to model it anew I would have based it on feats.  The older more primal feats stem from Orlanth whereas the newer sophisticated feats come from heroes and lesser deities.

The first feat would have been the Star Heart from Heort.  

Then would be the feats based on the Mountains that you worshipped (ie Kero Fin, Top of the World, Stormwalk)

The third feat would have been based on the aspect of Orlanth that you worshipped (Thunderous, Adventurous etc).  These feats would be being a good warrior or commanding the wind and rains.

Then would come the Feats of the Heroes and Thunder Brothers.  Most heroes would teach one feat, particularly impressive heroes (ie Vingkot) would teach about five.  Most clans would know only one feat from a hero

[Ian Cooper]

22 hours ago, daskindt said:

I’ve been going back to Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe more and more lately. I’d forgotten how blown away I was by the release of these books. I consider them easily amongst the finest supplements ever released for a roleplaying game.

Not everyone is a fan of them, but I like Thunder Rebels a lot. It was clearly bronze age, with its funerary rituals, storms etc. and influenced by a range of European cultures. And i think there was something to the more complex religion of Orlanth and Ernalda. I think that it went a little too far in some places, and that 'housewife magic' was an idea that should have been stepped back from, but it has more that I like than dislike.

[Ian Cooper]

13 hours ago, metcalph said:

Thunder Rebels/Storm Tribe's chief flaw in my opinion was the clean scheme imposed on the Gods and subcults.  If I were to model it anew I would have based it on feats.  The older more primal feats stem from Orlanth whereas the newer sophisticated feats come from heroes and lesser deities.

I think there is something in that, and its compatible with the version in S:KoH in many ways