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galafrone

learning spirit magic

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A simple question. I know from rq2 and 3 that you can learn new spiritic spells from the divine spell "spell teaching" and  "allied" spirits. How is dealt the thing in RQG ? i didnt found any reference in the rules, but probably because i am dumb.. can someone help me ? Specifically, WHO is the acting teacher and what the "learning" character has to do to learn a spiritic spell. Can someone that is just an initiate having for example bladesharp 2 teach the same spell to a companion ? wich is the exact nature of the learning of a spiritic spell ? thanks

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54 minutes ago, womble said:

Have a read of p277 "Spell Teaching", and p253 "Learning a Spell - From a Cult".

The rules are a little problematic - you need a Rune Master who knows the spell. That's fine for common spells, someone nearby is bound to know Healing 3, but if the last Rune Lord who knows Bladesharp 8 dies, no-one can learn Bladesharp 8 ever again.

Maybe that's true, and the knowledge of these unusually large spells is carefully curated; a PC might get a directive from the high priest that they have to learn Bladesharp 8 because the last person in the area who knows it is getting on a bit or is about to go on a dangerous mission.

Personally, I liked the mechanic of learning the spell from a cult spirit. A priest summons a cult spirit that knows the spell, and commands it to teach it.

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I'd say if the Cult really wanted to maintain knowledge of a spell, they could get a Cult Spirit to lay the beatdown on a member who knows the spell, and have the spirit learn that spell as the 'spoils of victory'. Unpleasant for the nominated Cult spell-donor, and maybe difficult to get the knowledge back out of the spirit (needing concerted Spirit Block spells and such, which would be what might preclude spirit-teaching for most: they wouldn't ever be able to beat the Spirit...). I wouldn't say spirit teaching was out of the question for Cults, but that the 'normal' week-of-training method would be preferred as certain and requiring the expenditure of no Rune Points.

If the knowledge of a 'precious' Spirit Magic were to be lost to a Cult, then I'd think it would be a Priest- or Lord-ly task to seek out a Shaman who can be induced to find and summon a Spirit which can teach the spell in question, and so induce them. I think that in the end it's the scarcity of such very-specialised knowledge in the Spirit World that makes high point Spirit Magic so very rare.

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2 hours ago, womble said:

Have a read of p277 "Spell Teaching", and p253 "Learning a Spell - From a Cult".

Yes i have read. But those 2 points doesnt answer to my question. 

1) Who teaches to the teacher ? he learns from another rune master up to the beginning of times ? and even then how the first rune master learned those spells ?

2) a shaman can teach you.. but here again, we don't know how. You just go there and pay. How does he gets the spells ? we can presume from spirits. So there are "spirit magic spirits who knows the spiritic spells ? and how the shaman gets them ? he wanders the spirit realm, finds them and enslave them ? 

i actually can understand we are getting RQG from heroquest more than RQ3 but we are lacking the basis for a real understand of some precious mechanics.

I feel i will need to revert to RQ3 in these cases... too much is left to one interpretation in a game where the bulk of the stuff are rules.

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and anyway, how is this "teaching" occurring ? if the rune master doesnt need a spirit, it means that ANYONE can teach a spiritic spell, on the basis of the mere "knowledge" he has of the spirit. In the rune priest/lord section there isnt nothing about teaching spiritic spells to others.

at least in RQ2 you had the runic spell "spell teaching" that got you the chance to teach "battle magic"

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1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Personally, I liked the mechanic of learning the spell from a cult spirit. A priest summons a cult spirit that knows the spell, and commands it to teach it.

i think i will go this way. 

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2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The rules are a little problematic - you need a Rune Master who knows the spell. That's fine for common spells, someone nearby is bound to know Healing 3, but if the last Rune Lord who knows Bladesharp 8 dies, no-one can learn Bladesharp 8 ever again.

Maybe that's true, and the knowledge of these unusually large spells is carefully curated; a PC might get a directive from the high priest that they have to learn Bladesharp 8 because the last person in the area who knows it is getting on a bit or is about to go on a dangerous mission.

Personally, I liked the mechanic of learning the spell from a cult spirit. A priest summons a cult spirit that knows the spell, and commands it to teach it.

 

1 hour ago, galafrone said:

Yes i have read. But those 2 points doesnt answer to my question. 

1) Who teaches to the teacher ? he learns from another rune master up to the beginning of times ? and even then how the first rune master learned those spells ?

2) a shaman can teach you.. but here again, we don't know how. You just go there and pay. How does he gets the spells ? we can presume from spirits. So there are "spirit magic spirits who knows the spiritic spells ? and how the shaman gets them ? he wanders the spirit realm, finds them and enslave them ? 

i actually can understand we are getting RQG from heroquest more than RQ3 but we are lacking the basis for a real understand of some precious mechanics.

I feel i will need to revert to RQ3 in these cases... too much is left to one interpretation in a game where the bulk of the stuff are rules.

 

Yeah, on this case the older rules were better.

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3 hours ago, galafrone said:

1) Who teaches to the teacher ? he learns from another rune master up to the beginning of times ? and even then how the first rune master learned those spells ?

Who cares? There are several ways that I can think of without trying to say how the 'first knower' could have learned their spell, from God Time shenanigans to Heroquests to some spirit Pact at the Dawn of Time. Or just from a Shaman in the same way Animists do. Maybe you can make up an interesting story that your players can follow in their own Heroquest, to learn the Spirit Magic, but that would be vast overkill if done for every run-of-the-mill spell.

3 hours ago, galafrone said:

2) a shaman can teach you.. but here again, we don't know how.

p368

Quote

Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may gain one of its spirit magic spells (player’s pick). If the spirit possesses a variable point spell, the adventurer may gain possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses.

Which, to my recollection is precisely how it was in RQ3.

So you go to the Shaman, they or their Fetch troll off and find a Spirit that knows the spell you want to learn, they summon it into their Axis Mundi or whatever Sacred Space and you fight the Spirit. The Shaman looks out for you so if you lose you're not possessed, and a good Shaman finds a Spirit you can beat, and casts Spirit Screen on you so you've got the advantage in the Spirit Combat. The simple 'pay the cost;learn the spell' is an abstraction so that downtime activities don't get in the way of the episodic adventure. Most of the time it's trivial and not worth playing through, same as in RQ3.

Several of the different Spirit types in the Bestiary are expected to have a CHA-full of Spirit spells. Ancestor Worshippers probably have specific Ancestors who between them know most of the common Spirit Spells, and the specific one necessary to teach the pupil what the want can be Summoned. 

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In the example at page 369 Vishi fights against a spirit and wins

the end of the text reads:

Quote

But before it leaves, Vishi can try to learn any one spell the spirit possesses by forcing it to provide him with a spell it knows.

So how a player can "try to learn" and how he can "force the spirit to provide him a spell it knows" ?

it's automatical ? it requires some rolls ?

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Like it says on p368, it's a consequence of victory. The example text is just trying to be flavourful, or working off an older draft of the rules. It just happens.

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If an adventuring assistant shaman wants to learn new spirit magic spells, what is the procedure? How it could be played? There is no shaman around to do it for them. Can the said assistant shaman then teach the spell to others?

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On 1/22/2019 at 5:05 PM, PhilHibbs said:

but if the last Rune Lord who knows Bladesharp 8 dies, no-one can learn Bladesharp 8 ever again.

There is a scenario in that. Researching lost spells, find out who last knew them and venturing off to the spirt world/underworld to find the spirit and learn the spell.

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On 1/22/2019 at 8:18 PM, galafrone said:

1) Who teaches to the teacher ? he learns from another rune master up to the beginning of times ? and even then how the first rune master learned those spells ?

Part of me really likes the answer that it goes through to the beginning of Time. The original spells could've been inherited from the God Time. Since then there has been a lineage that teaches this stuff and keeps the magical knowledge alive (ie. the cult). In cases where the line is broken, you're going to have to do some Heroquesting to the Godtime to regain the magic. And yeah, making sure that the high level spells continue would be a priority for the cult (and for the truly unscrupulous the killing of their possessers would an option). That is very evocative and really resonates with Glorantha in the sense of Time's relationship to Godtime (and maybe also with the idea that the 4th Age will have less magic in it..).

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4 hours ago, Psullie said:

There is a scenario in that. Researching lost spells, find out who last knew them and venturing off to the spirt world/underworld to find the spirit and learn the spell.

Several scenarios, I think...  😃

 

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On 1/29/2019 at 6:44 AM, JohannesH said:

If an adventuring assistant shaman wants to learn new spirit magic spells, what is the procedure? How it could be played? There is no shaman around to do it for them. Can the said assistant shaman then teach the spell to others?

Since shaman learn spirit magic off spirits by beating them in spirit combat, then the assistant shaman just needs to head off into the Spirit World, find an appropriate Spirit and make it 'cry Uncle'. How reckless such an approach may be without an awakened Fetch, and with Assistant Shaman levels of Spirit Combat, Spirit Dance and Spirit Lore, will depend on 'your' Glorantha. But once the Assistant Shaman has found such a spirit, they'll know where to Summon it from to allow others to defeat it and learn its secrets.

IMG, such an Assistant Shaman might (if they were very lucky) succeed at finding the 'teaching' spirit, but they'd have to know the appropriate spells to both summon and control the spirit to make it engage with another character, and the consequences of failure in the spirit combat would be 'as usual'. An Assistant Shaman isn't expected to be performing that function though and it would be fraught with peril every time.

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