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Questions about Ygg, Yggites, and Wolf Pirates

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How close does the Yggite society resemble the Terran Vikings and how much the Eskimos? There's not much information about Yggites or the Wolf Pirates.

  1. How many people live on Ygg's Isles? Are there 120000 living there after half of the people left with Harrek to the Three Step Islands, or before it?

  2. How were those people transported there to the Three Step Islands? With the 30-60 Wolf Pirate ships?

  3. How many of those ships were with Harrek on his Great Circumnavigation?

  4. How many of the Wolf Pirates are freed slaves, or foreign adventures, and how many are Yggites?

  5. What kind of share dividing system do the Wolf Pirates use?

  6. How much do the Yggites farm and herd? Are most of them pure fishermen, or fishermen who also farm?

  7. How is the Ygg's Islands' society organized and who rules them? Do they have clans, tribes, chieftains, earls or what?

  8. And the same questions for the Three Step Islands and their other colonies.

  9. What gods do they worship?

  10. Has Ygg's cult ever had any official rules? And if not, are there plans to make them?

  11. About Gloranthan historiography, were the Yggites added to Glorantha after the Vikings box was made, or had Greg ”found” them before?

  12. Are their clinker ships made with metal nails?

  13. Why do their ships have rams if they are pirates who want to loot ships instead of just sinking them? And rams also slow down their ships.

  14. How warm relationship does Ygg and the Yggites have with Aldrya and the elves?

  15. What do the Yggites give to the elves as gifts or tribute?

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I have many of the same questions, actually, and I was intending on making a thread about the Yggites and the remaining Vadrudi extant in Time (I've seen the Jonatings sometimes referred to as "Vadrudi", but they were converted from Hsunchen or possibly Storm Bull-associated people by Theyalan missionaries in the first age, and so have no connection to Vadrus that I know. The Yggites and whoever Valind keeps with him on the glacier seems the only extant Vadrudi in Time).

I've read some cultural write-ups about the Yggites by fans, and in my opinion, a lot of them present them as very two-dimensionally brutish and downright evil people, with no laws respected beyond sheer force. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of that interpretation, and I suspect they mostly play into Orlanthi cultural biases and prejudices. I might offer some (very tentative, as I'm very new to this kind of thing) write-up myself. If I ever do, I think I'd position it in such a way that the Yggites much resemble the Orlanthi, but much moreso the "endemic warfare hill tribe" (except more nautical) Orlanthi, than the "builders of massive cities and sometimes empires" Orlanthi that we see every now and then, if that makes sense. The close cultural similarities (Rings, clans, lawspeakers, moots, subsistence plow-farming or horticulture with a focus on some kind of prestige livestock, etc.) would then be paired with a somewhat reversed mythos, where Orlanth is seen as cowardly Usurper, who brings impure winds, who stabbed Vadrus in the back, and who groveled before Yelm, debasing himself and his kin for all time. The juxtaposition of these two elements, (cultural similarity and religious opposition) would serve as a decent platform to explore rivalries and possibly even fusions. Relations with Valind on the glacier, the Sea gods, and even the Loskalmi and other Westerners would be the next part, probably. As you mentioned, a look into Aldrya and perhaps also the Rathori would be interesting too.

Sorry if this was a bit of a hijack, it's a question that has fascinated me for a while.

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I have a history of making assumptions about the Yggites, some of which led to weird sidetracks like the great moose debate when I assumed that the Pralori elk (that was mentioned for the Winterwood fringes) was alces alces, the European elk, and not the wapiti.

I was researching Ottar at the time, the Tromsø merchant who visited King Alfred the Great in time for his travelogue around the North Cape (and that of another trader named Wulfstan in the Baltic Sea) to be included in the Anglo-Saxon translation of the Orosius text, a Latin geography from 4th or 5th century Iberia which named numerous peoples far beyond the known people in the empire.

Ottar described his home in the text and mentioned the semi-domesticated reindeer herds his agriculture relied upon. My own experience from living in Northern Norway was very fresh (I even returned there briefly in the middle of the debate), and I had researched a bit on the coastal Sami who had interacted with the Halogalanders like Ottar or the island/peninsula kings of Steigen and Skrova (off the Lofoten) closer to where I lived (in a village originally founded by coastal Sami, who had been forced to abandon their native ways and become good Christian Norsemen, only to be re-populated by Lule-Sami forced to a more sedentary way of life a few centuries later).

These coastal Sami and their relationship with the Halogalander Viking overlords influenced my impression of the Ygglings (as I prefer to call them in my writings, enjoying the similarity to the Ynglings of Snorre Sturlason's Ynglingatal in the first portion of the Heimskringla).

I had the chance to talk to Greg about this, and while my original assumptions went in a couple of different directions than his ideas, I think some of my first-hand experiences in the region did leave a slight impression on his views, too.

I have since learned of Sandy Petersen's Yggite campaign through various posts of Guy Hoyle who related the fortunes and misfortunes of the party including his awakened Praxian herdman adoptee Fido Two Big Clubs to the island that had been decimated badly between the effects of the Ban on top of the Closing and then the conflict with the Loskalmi. Those notes are fine for amusement value, too - search the temppeli archives of the digests.

Using the (extinct) coastal Sami culture as a guide to their material culture was mitigating the "Vadrudi" bullyboy approach a lot, at least for me. Enough of that remained, of course, for them to crew the wolf pirate fleet in droves, but then the Norse sagas are full of Finn crewmates with weird and often magical abilities.

The description of the Yggites and Wolf Pirates in the Introduction to Glorantha book for Hero Wars is a good starting point.

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I have many of the same questions, actually, and I was intending on making a thread about the Yggites and the remaining Vadrudi extant in Time (I've seen the Jonatings sometimes referred to as "Vadrudi", but they were converted from Hsunchen or possibly Storm Bull-associated people by Theyalan missionaries in the first age, and so have no connection to Vadrus that I know. The Yggites and whoever Valind keeps with him on the glacier seems the only extant Vadrudi in Time).

I've read some cultural write-ups about the Yggites by fans, and in my opinion, a lot of them present them as very two-dimensionally brutish and downright evil people, with no laws respected beyond sheer force. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of that interpretation, and I suspect they mostly play into Orlanthi cultural biases and prejudices. I might offer some (very tentative, as I'm very new to this kind of thing) write-up myself. If I ever do, I think I'd position it in such a way that the Yggites much resemble the Orlanthi, but much moreso the "endemic warfare hill tribe" (except more nautical) Orlanthi, than the "builders of massive cities and sometimes empires" Orlanthi that we see every now and then, if that makes sense. The close cultural similarities (Rings, clans, lawspeakers, moots, subsistence plow-farming or horticulture with a focus on some kind of prestige livestock, etc.) would then be paired with a somewhat reversed mythos, where Orlanth is seen as cowardly Usurper, who brings impure winds, who stabbed Vadrus in the back, and who groveled before Yelm, debasing himself and his kin for all time. The juxtaposition of these two elements, (cultural similarity and religious opposition) would serve as a decent platform to explore rivalries and possibly even fusions. Relations with Valind on the glacier, the Sea gods, and even the Loskalmi and other Westerners would be the next part, probably. As you mentioned, a look into Aldrya and perhaps also the Rathori would be interesting too.

Sorry if this was a bit of a hijack, it's a question that has fascinated me for a while.

There hasn't been much official stuff written about them, so we have kinda have to make do with fan written material. Just go ahead and post your version of them, it's nice to read other peoples' Glorantha material.

Edited by Brootse

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47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I have a history of making assumptions about the Yggites, some of which led to weird sidetracks like the great moose debate when I assumed that the Pralori elk (that was mentioned for the Winterwood fringes) was alces alces, the European elk, and not the wapiti.

I was researching Ottar at the time, the Tromsø merchant who visited King Alfred the Great in time for his travelogue around the North Cape (and that of another trader named Wulfstan in the Baltic Sea) to be included in the Anglo-Saxon translation of the Orosius text, a Latin geography from 4th or 5th century Iberia which named numerous peoples far beyond the known people in the empire.

Ottar described his home in the text and mentioned the semi-domesticated reindeer herds his agriculture relied upon. My own experience from living in Northern Norway was very fresh (I even returned there briefly in the middle of the debate), and I had researched a bit on the coastal Sami who had interacted with the Halogalanders like Ottar or the island/peninsula kings of Steigen and Skrova (off the Lofoten) closer to where I lived (in a village originally founded by coastal Sami, who had been forced to abandon their native ways and become good Christian Norsemen, only to be re-populated by Lule-Sami forced to a more sedentary way of life a few centuries later).

These coastal Sami and their relationship with the Halogalander Viking overlords influenced my impression of the Ygglings (as I prefer to call them in my writings, enjoying the similarity to the Ynglings of Snorre Sturlason's Ynglingatal in the first portion of the Heimskringla).

I had the chance to talk to Greg about this, and while my original assumptions went in a couple of different directions than his ideas, I think some of my first-hand experiences in the region did leave a slight impression on his views, too.

I have since learned of Sandy Petersen's Yggite campaign through various posts of Guy Hoyle who related the fortunes and misfortunes of the party including his awakened Praxian herdman adoptee Fido Two Big Clubs to the island that had been decimated badly between the effects of the Ban on top of the Closing and then the conflict with the Loskalmi. Those notes are fine for amusement value, too - search the temppeli archives of the digests.

Using the (extinct) coastal Sami culture as a guide to their material culture was mitigating the "Vadrudi" bullyboy approach a lot, at least for me. Enough of that remained, of course, for them to crew the wolf pirate fleet in droves, but then the Norse sagas are full of Finn crewmates with weird and often magical abilities.

The description of the Yggites and Wolf Pirates in the Introduction to Glorantha book for Hero Wars is a good starting point.

Yeah, I remember reading some of your writings about the them. And I liked your 'Ygglings', and have used it in my campaign too. I used the 'Yggites' in this thread just because it's the official term for them. Would you mind linking the stuff you mentioned? And go ahead and post your version of the Ygglings in this thread, it's always nice to read other peoples' Glorantha material.

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2 hours ago, Brootse said:

How close does the Yggite society resemble the Terran Vikings and how much the Eskimos? There's not much information about Yggites or the Wolf Pirates.

All of my following answers are in my personal opinion, grown from the disclaimer in the previous post.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:
  1. How many people live on Ygg's Isles? Are there 120000 living there after half of the people left with Harrek to the Three Step Islands, or before it?

 

The population numbers in the Guide show the 1621 numbers, as far as I am informed. The Wolf Pirates have three major colonies - off the Seshnelan coast, in the north of the Jrustelan archipelago, and on Three Step Islands. Given their coastal raiding, I have assumed that a good portion of those colony populations are coastal folk carried off to serve as their underlings, with the original Yggites making up between 30% and 70% of those colonies.

"Half the people" may be a figure of speech, or apply to certain regions only. Harrek's migration away from the islands was only the third major wave, and reinforced the previous settlements on Three Step, Ginorth and possibly also Gothalos.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

2. How were those people transported there to the Three Step Islands? With the 30-60 Wolf Pirate ships?

Harrek built a new fleet after his sack of Sog City, with his flag ship sharing certain traits of Olav Tryggvason's Ormen Lange (that was lost in epic combat along with the king). He would have arrived from Sog with a motley fleet of captured vessels which would have been available to any somewhat less warlike Yggites willing to relocate along with the Wolf Pirate crews.

 

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

3. How many of those ships were with Harrek on his Great Circumnavigation?

The circumnavigation fleet would have had all of Harrek's new warships, built without much if any at all metal, and all of the warships that the previous captains of the Wolf Pirate fleet at Three Step had taken from Rightarm Islanders, Slontan fisherfolk, Handran merchants or freebooters, Quinpolic merchants or freebooters, elements from Alatan (Malta jumbled up?) and converts from vessels of more distant origin like Fonrit, Maslo or beyond Teshnos.

 

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

4. How many of the Wolf Pirates are freed slaves, or foreign adventures, and how many are Yggites?

I gave my range of estimates for the general population above. In the ranks of the Wolf Pirates, I would expect the number of converts to be somewhat higher, as it is "convert or die" when your ship is taken by wolf pirates (unless it happens at night while beached, which gives a small chance to flee to an interesting survival quest on the coastal lands).

It strongly varies from ship to ship - there are freebooters who joined the Wolf Pirates with their entire crews. While a certain number of shipmates will have met the dark underseas in the meantime and have been replaced by the toughest survivors of the captured vessels, these ships may have quite a different architecture and structure than your mainstream wolf pirate vessel.

Another major influence on my thoughts on the Three Step population is Hugh Cook's "The Warlord and the War Wolf", a tale about a very dishonorable group of survivors from their pirate culture, and a fun read. One of my favorite fantasy pirate novels, really. (A recent addition to that list is Joe Abercrombie's Half a King young adult trilogy which manages to keep some of the grim outlook of his The Blade Itself series. Some of Steven Erikson's Malazan novels give nice variations on fantasy pirates, too.)

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

5. What kind of share dividing system do the Wolf Pirates use?

I think that Henry Morgan's pirate constitution inherited a lot from the Likendeeler of Baltic Sea and later North Sea notoriety, who in turn inherited Viking traditions that were continued by the Balts after the Viking Christianization and central kingdoms put an end to that source of piracy.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

6. How much do the Yggites farm and herd? Are most of them pure fishermen, or fishermen who also farm?

On Three Step, I think that the Yggites take a similar approach to primary production (farming/gardening/herding/fishing) as the Elmali converts in Sun Dome County with their enslaved Kitori "Ergeshi" population. A lot of their work force will be Rightarm Islanders and Wenelian fisherfolk or coastal farming populations abducted from their homelands and not ransomed back. Like with the fighting arm of the Wolf Pirate "culture", I imagine that quite a few enslaved folk who had not had much better standing in their previous lives have taken the meritocratic oppression of the Yggites for themselves and begin to rise as far as non-fighters can in this society.

Unlike Oasis folk, the Yggite farmers who don't sail on wolf pirate raids full time or who had to retire due to injuries dictate the methods, with few southern Genertelan influences taking hold among the Yggites. When they do, then possibly through the captive wives of retired or semi-active wolf pirates taken from the mainland or its archipelagos.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

7. How is the Ygg's Islands' society organized and who rules them? Do they have clans, tribes, chieftains, earls or what?

Unlike the colonies where the former clans have lost most of their meanings, the people remaining on their native islands retain their old clan structures, IMO. Clans tend to be smaller than Heortling clans (again IMO), due to the harsher ways of living. (Again, I used my info on coastal Sami and Halogalander settlement sizes and structures to arrive at this idea. Another useful influence would be the Maori, I guess.)

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

8. And the same questions for the Three Step Islands and their other colonies.

Possibly least classical Yggite on Three Step, with more remaining tradition on Ginorth and Gothalos. For Three Step, see above, and take a loan from Abercrombie's Named Men northmen society.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

9. What gods do they worship?

Whichever work, plus their ancestral ones that keep defining who they are. Their Niiad ancestress - a cousin of Warera - probably gives them a range of coastal sea deities and spirits useful on any Genertelan coast, although not tha useful in dealing with the Kethaelan and Manirian Ludoch. The merfolk back at home (and on the shores of Brithos) are the Ouori, who have quite different temperaments.

(The absence of Ludoch and prevalence of Ouori on Malkioni coasts makes me regard the mention of Warera and Waertag's wife as "Ludoch" mermaids as one of the potential blunders in the Guide.)

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

10. Has Ygg's cult ever had any official rules? And if not, are there plans to make them?

Men of the Sea had the most official material touching the Wolf Pirates, very lightly.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

11. About Gloranthan historiography, were the Yggites added to Glorantha after the Vikings box was made, or had Greg ”found” them before?

I think I asked Greg that, too. No, the Ygg Seastorm folk apparently had been part of his unwritten Argrath Saga before the publication of the RQ Vikings Box, but that (excellent) RQ3 supplement, the Land of Ninja box, their licensed reprint of Carse and the Sanctuary box have all been playtested or at least played in the Chaosium Glorantha campaigns.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

12. Are their clinker ships made with metal nails?

Given my Coastal Sami bias, I like to think that the Yggite sea vessels are sown, a technique well documented for the Hjortspring war canoe as well as for the vessels Norwegian Kong Sverre (of Birkebeiner fame) received from coastal Sami during the winters of his involuntary exile.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

13. Why do their ships have rams if they are pirates who want to loot ships instead of just sinking them? And rams also slow down their ships.

According to "Bireme and Galley", my go-to source for ancient naval wargaming by FGU, ramming attacks into the hull from the side were a risky endeavor for the ramming ship, too, and most ramming tactics would be aimed at the rowers, or aim to entangle the rammed ship in a manner similar to the Roman Punic War invention of the Corvus.

The Hjortspring boat extensions have been discussed as some sort of ram - no idea what the final conclusions were (if there are any).

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

14. How warm relationship does Ygg and the Yggites have with Aldrya and the elves?

The Yggites are the only (surviving) humans who have traditional logging rights on the Winterwood fringes - possibly because they remain on their rocky islands off the coast which are unsuited for the type of spruce forest the Winterwood consists of.

The WInterwood spruce forest right below the Glacier remains a pet peeve of mine, as I have spent quite a bit of time on the arctic tree line. It is a testament to the strength of Aldrya's magics that the forest there doesn't look like in Halogaland.

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

15. What do the Yggites give to the elves as gifts or tribute?

Possibly similarly harsh stuff like the WIldlings in Game of Thrones or the Hendriki in the Double Tribute to the Kitori.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yeah, I remember reading some of your writings about the them. And I liked your 'Ygglings', and have used it in my campaign too. I used the 'Yggites' in this thread just because it's the official term for them. Would you mind linking the stuff you mentioned? And go ahead and post your version of the Ygglings in this thread, it's always nice to read other peoples' Glorantha material.

The links I had in the past to my otherwise unlinked Glorantha articles on my domain sartar.de might still work, but I have trouble accessing it in a writing mode since malware contained in the content management system my provider had me download from them inserted a spam link list word press fake page into my drupal page, and then my provider blocked my domains glorantha.de (which ran that drupal system) and sartar.de (which had old, manually created HTML3 and 4 pages). I still haven't found the drive to restore that (and all the estimated 80 print pages worth of Glorantha introductory material in German language that I failed to back up). The most relevant pieces of old were printed in Tradetalk.

 

In the more recent time, my productive comments on how I imagine the Yggites have been drowned out by my raging and ranting against the use of "Bronze Age" as Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent Bronze Age only (as that appears to be the only Bronze Age the Anglophone world is aware of). As much as I share the fascination with the Sea People who appeared at the onset of the Bronze Age Dark Ages, they and their ship types feel absolutely out of place in my perception of Glorantha.

If I were to tackle an Yggite campaign now, I would start re-reading Ottar's report of his journey around the North Cape. Ottar would be re-cast as a third generation Loskalmi overlord on one of the southern Yggite islands, with a native mother and grandmother (thinking of the Arab presence on the East African coast) with very little of Loskalmi sophistication remaining in his domain, and all the weird encounters that he related to King Alfred would be material for the various Yggite clans and possibly "tribes" (not that they remain stable in any way) further up the Winterwood coast.

The Hjortspring boat would be the model for most non-Wolf Pirate Yggite vessels, a genuine Bronze Age or possibly even Neolithic ship design if we can trust Scandinavian stone inscriptions, usable for whaling, seal hunting and warfare.

 

I wouldn't use any Inuit influences at all. They too seem wrong to my impression of the Yggites. Their interactions with European and American whalers are quite different from what I think the Yggites would have offered, both before and after the Closing (and the added problem of the Ban).

I briefly mentioned the Maori before as a possible second culture that has parallels with the Yggites. I am thinking of the period just after the Moas had gone extinct and the population explosion they had enabled was left with way too few resources, so the Maori had to take on some drastic changes to their previous life in plenty. This is possibly the best parallel other than the failed Viking colony in Greenland to what happened to the Yggites when the Closing fell on them, and then the Ban reduced their fishing and hunting grounds off the Winterwood proper, too.

Edited by Joerg
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10 hours ago, Brootse said:

How close does the Yggite society resemble the Terran Vikings and how much the Eskimos? There's not much information about Yggites or the Wolf Pirates.

The following are the best sources of information.  All of them were written by Greg and so are about as safe to use as say Middle Sea Empire.

Wyrms Footnotes p20.

Quote

Home of the Northmen - a tough, fierce race of sae-faring men who worship the forces of nature and a savage god.  They make periodic raids into southern waters and also follow the ways of Dormal.  They have established several southern outposts.

Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars - Battle of Brond's Serpent p34 (I didn't write this).  This describes the defeat of the Howling Fleet of the God Learners.  Brond the Carver creates the Sea Serpent from a sentient tree and sacrifices his brother to it so it drank the blood of humanity.  Then the sea serpent laiden with warriors sets sail against the Howling Fleet.  They fought in Astor's Bay and the fleet was destroyed.  But the pissed-off elves made the crops of his people poisonous and the fish in their larders into Goo.  To survive, Brond's people too refuge in the off-shore islands.  This suggests that the Yggites originally lived in Bija which appears on a map in Cults of Terror.  However the country is not shown in the Historical Atlases of the Guide.

Tales of the Reaching Moon #10 p7.  Probably the fullest account so I'll summarize heavily.  It says they inhabit the coasts of the nearby Winterwood.  They are culturally and linguistically unrelated to other Gloranthan peoples (which might mean they are descended from Vadrus's frozen land).  They trace their descent from Ygg and Nelarrina (a minor goddess of the Neliomi Sea).  They were mostly fishermen, sealers and whalers.  They were initially friendly to the Aldryami but soon Loskalmi settlers controlled the export of Lumber from Winterwood.  But in the Imperial Age, the Loskalmi were ejected as the Elder Races found fault with most humans.  The Yggites were never ejected and maintain their lumber rights in exchange for quarterly tribute and gifts (this is hard to reconcile with the aftermath of Brond's sage).

They were isolated by the Closing and the Syndic's Ban.  Their whaling was wiped out but they used small boats to fish and hunt seals among the islands.  Their population grew until they were nearly overcrowded with people who were hungry.  When Dormal sailed among their islands, his ships were driven onto the rocks and one wrecked.  The Islanders helped him.  Some joined Dormal while other's studied the wreck and built their own ships.

The Loskalmi forbade any Yggite shipping.  The Yggites joined with the Vadeli and gained restricted shipping privileges for a while.  But they were betrayed by the Vadeli and placed under Loskalmi control once again.  The Loskalmi even sent troops to occupy the islands.

The Yggites refused to build ships for the Loskalmi or cut down any wood for them.  They paddled away when the Loskalmi came and many even hid on the mainland.  Eventually the Loskalmi offended the Elves.  In return, the elves called upon an ancient Hero (obviously Errinoru) and received plans for a warship from him (the Elvish Gallegas).  With these ships and Yggite help, the Loskalmi were wiped out.  

The Loskalmi were still growing stronger as the Ban kept melting away (ie suggests a date of the 1590s).  They sent a new force and even occupied the Vendreog, a sacred island of the Yggites.  There they build Coldfort and began to take the wood which they wanted.  

This led to the rebellion of Orstando Blackwolf.  His combined the designs of the Elvish warship and the Loskalmi patrolboats to create the first Longships.  From there he fought aainst the Loskalmi.  This led to a fruitless conflict in which Orstando's people begged him to stop, leave or drive the Loskalmi away.  Orstando then sailed his fleet into the sea of fog where he defeated the Loskalmi with help from sea-creatures.  He fled south and raid along the southern coast before settling on Three Steps Islands (1605 ST according to the Guide p239).  

When Orstando died, he was then bound into the figurehead of his ship, which was carved in the shape of a wolf and had a shaggy skin upon it.  

The wolf pirates are a brotherhood of equals.  All factors rank, inheritance and family were given to the deep sea after they left Ygg's Islands.  Men and women are judged by what they can do for the fleet.  About two dozen ships left the Ygg's Isles with Ortsando and there are about 30-60 ships in total but never in the same place.

Missing Lands p44  Mentions that the Yggites were eating their own children when Dormal arrived.  They allied themselves with the Vadeli and scoured the Neliomi Sea, splitting the booty between themselves and the Vadeli Isles.  After their defeat they spread eastwards along the southern coasts.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Brootse said:

How many people live on Ygg's Isles? Are there 120000 living there after half of the people left with Harrek to the Three Step Islands, or before it?

Harrek's migration was in 1616 ST.  The population statistics in the Guide are for 1621 ST.  The population figures for Three Steps isn't known but is not likely to be very large considering that Skullport is a small city; I would be surprised if it's more than 10,000.  Hence the half of the population is likely to be puffery.

11 hours ago, Brootse said:

How is the Ygg's Islands' society organized and who rules them? Do they have clans, tribes, chieftains, earls or what?

Since the Wolf Pirates threw such considerations to the deep sea, it implies that the Yggites had such institutions.

11 hours ago, Brootse said:

Has Ygg's cult ever had any official rules? And if not, are there plans to make them?

There was one in Hero Quest 1.0 but I felt it was somewhat lacking.

11 hours ago, Brootse said:

About Gloranthan historiography, were the Yggites added to Glorantha after the Vikings box was made, or had Greg ”found” them before?

The Yggites first appear in WF #11 (Spring 1981) as part of the Sea of Neliom article).  Vikings wasn't published until four years later.

11 hours ago, Brootse said:

Are their clinker ships made with metal nails?

I think wooden dowels are used as it's based on Aldryami designs.

11 hours ago, Brootse said:

Why do their ships have rams if they are pirates who want to loot ships instead of just sinking them? And rams also slow down their ships.

I think their ships have figureheads instead.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I've read some cultural write-ups about the Yggites by fans, and in my opinion, a lot of them present them as very two-dimensionally brutish and downright evil people, with no laws respected beyond sheer force. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of that interpretation, and I suspect they mostly play into Orlanthi cultural biases and prejudices. I might offer some (very tentative, as I'm very new to this kind of thing) write-up myself. If I ever do, I think I'd position it in such a way that the Yggites much resemble the Orlanthi, but much moreso the "endemic warfare hill tribe" (except more nautical) Orlanthi

Vadrudi usually feel like "Orlanthi without the good parts", but I imagine there must somehow be more to it than that. At the very least, they can't think of themselves that way! (Maybe there would also be some way to make the 'Imperial Gazellet' myth to make sense, because that one is just plain weird.) There's surely something about them apart from violence, rape, and pillage (even if that may be how outsiders see them)?

Vadrus sometimes seems a bit like Ares, or Set - that asshat warrior you bring in when nothing else will do, even though it will suck afterwards. That myth with how only Vadrus could defeat the woolly rhinos (?) from a HW publication seems to support that kind reading.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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22 hours ago, Brootse said:

There hasn't been much official stuff written about them, so we have kinda have to make do with fan written material. Just go ahead and post your version of them, it's nice to read other peoples' Glorantha material.

I'll try and formulate some ideas, though I'll refrain from going too much into details, as I haven't the Guide or other sources near me.

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Vadrus sometimes seems a bit like Ares, or Set - that asshat warrior you bring in when nothing else will do, even though it will suck afterwards. That myth with how only Vadrus could defeat the woolly rhinos (?) from a HW publication seems to support that kind reading.

The Sourcebook's entry on him actually seem to take a slightly more nuanced position about him, which fits the one you mentioned (and also my own interpretation). In that way, he's not entirely unlike Shargash, who is sometimes depicted as a barely-restrained berserker, but also explicitly identified with Tolat, a god with a much broader portfolio and personality. Another similarity is Storm Bull, I think, who in places seem to be portrayed as virtually nothing but unthinking rage, but who is also a proud and firm patriarch of the Praxians. I suspect Vadrus may also have been subject to similar kinds of interpretation. As you said - he might be an asshole, but he's *our* asshole, damn it!

------

A Preliminary Idea of Yggite Beliefs Regarding Divine Matters (Using Theyalan-God Learner names):

- Umath was the primal Storm, the Breaker of Chains, who saw the insufficiency of the stale, bad world and claimed a place for himself and his own. He was killed in furious battle defending his place in the world. This is the most important gift he left us: You Can Fight for Your Place. If there is none, you can make one. Or die trying.

- Vadrus was Umath's rightful heir. He showed this by swearing vengeance for his father, honoring his memory and deeds, and leading revenge raids on his killers' holdings. To get the other sons of Umath to join, he sometimes had to harangue, cajole and bully. Not all of them followed easily. Vadrus took Storm Bull by the horns and nearly broke his neck. Storm Bull conceded. Vadrus had a shouting match with Kolat until the latter had a big headache and agreed to join. Humakt joined, but that story is secret. Last was Orlanth, who was the Youngest Brother. Vadrus knew Orlanth had a silver tongue, and wanted him to be his Herald. Orlanth was given arm-rings, and a horn, and swore allegiance to his older brother. Vadrus did many other good things too, such as killing the Great Blue Dragon, and freeing the Blue Woman, Helera. He took many wives and lovers, and had many children. He taught the Seas to fear him. He raided the Golden Cities, bringing abundant wealth back home, to the joy of his people, and honoring his oath of vengeance. Vadrus gave his children different parts of his lands, were they could Fight For Their Place. Some made it. Others not.

- Valind was the one who managed to make the greatest place, and in it he made the Glacier, and took trolls and giants as blood-brothers. At one point, Valind almost took over the entire world with this alliance. But then the World Broke, and it was all for naught.

- When the Unholy Trio created the Devil, and Chaos erupted into the world with a vast army, Vadrus recognized them as enemies, not only of himself, but all of creation. They were not Fighting for Their Place, but rather to make everyplace go away. So Vadrus took Orlanth's advice to welcome other forces to fight with them, even his old enemies. But in the battle, Orlanth abandoned his brother and lord, and cowardly fled, betraying his kin. Vadrus was left fighting alone. Perhaps he could've ran away, but he never backed down from a challenge. So he died. Not like most gods die - for they can come back again - but died forever and for real. The lights of the world flickered. The air grew stale. The seas sludgy. Orlanth was hidden and nowhere to be seen.

- Valind swore to hold the line against the invaders from the north, and brought his allies of trolls, giants and beasts with him. He did so, abdicating his claim to kingship. And this is still where he is, though at times he gets a mind of taking back his old holdings, even if they have new lords now. We sometimes have to remind them of that, whether by propitiatory sacrifice, or by force of arms. 

- Ygg was Valind's son, borne from Nelia. He rose as a powerful waterspout and wild storm from the dark-grey bosom of the seas. He was tempestuous and wild, and fought valiantly against the killers of his great-grandfather, and was chosen to be the vanguard for his grandfather Vadrus. His great-uncle Orlanth clearly had envy for this.

- When Vadrus died, Ygg had a claim to the kingship. [Not everyone agreed, and Ygg must go on a great quest to prove his worth. During this quest he gains followers, including a Seeress, and grows as a person, learning from past mistakes, and mellowing out, or at least learning to control his rage most of the time.] Finally, he was proclaimed king at the Moot, with a unanimous shake of arms. But his Seeress reminded him of her prophecy for him, and he steeled himself for what was coming.

- When the Spike exploded, and Chaos ate and defiled the Heart of the World, the peoples of the world were in disarray, hiding in fear or robbing and killing each other over what little remained. But Ygg's maternal kin saw the Hole in Creation, and threw themselves into that hole. Ygg knew that the winds had to do so too, and since he was the King of the Greatest Winds, he had to go first. Taking with him his retinue, he stormed the Whirlpool, where his distant kinsman Magasta was seated, guarding the Hole. There, Ygg wedded his [daughter, sister?] to Magasta, and she birthed the Waterspout Sons, and the Winnow Daughters. Then, leaving his royal regalia in the hand of the Winnow Daughters, he stormed the Whirlpool with a great and mighty roar, showing that the old joy of battle still lived in him. Ygg then gave us his own lesson: Do What Must Be Done. Don't shirk away from it. Carry yourself with courage and dignity.

- [Ygg enters the underworld, and has some kind of adventure. Not intended to be a parallel of the Lightbringer Quest. More similar to the I Fought We Won Battle, in that it is essentially a futile action that results in rebirth through sheer tenacity. It is more about revitalizing the air, water and possibly the other elements as well. Emphasis on the idea that Ygg essentially sacrifices himself to die in order to do this (No prize for realizing where this is borrowed from). Not entirely sure how any of this will fit together with God Learner ideas, The Compromise, Arachne Solara, or Time, but hey.]

- The Ygg's folk waited in the stale darkness, not knowing whether they were alive or dead, or if they existed at all. But then, after what seemed an eternity, there came a great and fresh breeze from the east. The people then saw Ygg and his companions triumphantly return from the Underworld. It shattered their malaise, and let people sense who was living and who was dead, and who were just shadows and imaginations. His great breath blew away lies and deceit and uncleanliness. With it, there came the Winnow Daughters, and they brought him back his Regalia, and he was proclaimed, once again, the King of the World. At this, the Sun rose anew, and flowers bloomed, and the scales of the sea goddess turned from surly grey to brilliant silver. Then came the Seeress, and told him that the Usurper Orlanth had made a pact with Umath's killers to gain this title as well, by bowing and groveling before the Bad Emperor. But Orlanth knew and feared Ygg, the craven that he was, and so hid on mountaintops like an outlaw, which is where he still is, and from whence he still sometimes send bad winds or plants words of deceit. However, he is still kin, and so he is offered propitiatory sacrifices. In some rituals he is made to renounce his false claim to kingship, but this never lasts, as he is notoriously untruthful.

------

- [Pretty much all the details here are open, and mostly emerged from the idea of trying to create a more "Vadrucentric" spin on things. Potentially, Ygg could be made to be a direct son of Vadrus, for example, to jump over the Valind step which feels a bit redundant. I do not think one should be wedded to Theyalan/God Learner models of descent or relations - the GRoY and Entekosiad have both shown that quite radically different models and interpretations are not only possible, but sustainable. The important part is that Ygg is seen as the legitimate Lord of the Middle Air, both by heritage and by deed, whereas Orlanth is seen as a liar and cheat. I'm open to consider that the idea of Orlanth as a Usurper is a post-Time/First Era innovation by Yggites who were scandalized by claims made by Fronelan Orlanthi. Prior to that Orlanth was perhaps more fundamentally a mountaintop/hill-wind trickster god. Their airs are differentiated too: Ygg's winds are clean, pure, and while they can be violent, they are also the reliable weather systems and mild breezes. Orlanth's winds are foul, bring sickness or are otherwise in some fashion negative. Valind's status is ambiguous. As likely to be foe as friend, but most commonly neither - he's just another force that has to be dealt with in some fashion.]

- [The upgrade from minor sea nymph to Nelia herself as Ygg's mother is in the same vein as me considering to cut out Valind as an intermediary step between Vadrus and Ygg. Parentage should be suitably grand, in some fashion. "Son of some nymph" seems to be to be the kind of origin story you give to other people's gods or heroes, not your own. Same goes for his relation to Magasta, which I realize is probably distant, but feels "right". Ygg's female relative being wedded to Magasta and creating the waterspouts is a twist on similar events recounted in the Sourcebook, but different storm heritage. Felt like it fit. The Winnow Daughters are original, but felkt like a nice counterparts to the male Waterspouts. The Winnow Daughters then become signifiers of legitimate royal authority, and are probably involved in kingship rites in Yggite society. Alternatively, they might be the mother-founders of various legendary Yggite clans. I like them though. The Seeress is a similar thing. Just a neat thing, and borrowed from Norse society, as well as a way to put in some female roles or power-brokers into the Yggite mythology/society. I did have some ideas for Storm Bull and Humakt, but decided against going into unnecessary detail. Suffice to say, I think the Yggites have a special reverence for Humakt, and see joining him as a legitimate way of escaping clan-feuds or restoring sullied honor. Revered, but suspect, of course.]

- [Didn't delve into relationships with Frona/The Earth. I'm tempted to see her as a wife or lover of Ygg, which parallels Orlanth-Ernalda perhaps a bit too much, but which is kinda hard to avoid, what with the sea being his mom and therefore not really suitable wife material (unless you write around it, which is perfectly possible), and my vision of the Yggites being subsistence farmers like most other settled peoples in Glorantha. I'm also tempted to make Lodril (aka. Ladaral) an ally of some kind. Iceland as an inspiration for hot springs as holy sites, for example, although this would entail making the Ygg Isles volcanic, which I'm not sure if is in line with published material. The Brithini at Sog are obviously performing blasphemy of the highest order. Aldrya's relationship is also unspecified, but I imagine to be a complex affair, with highs and lows, but overall one sustained by ancient oaths. A simple tributary system is fine, but I'd like something more. I'm also open to look more into their history/mythological associations with the Rathori and Uncolings, as well as the Walrus-mermen/Ouri. They shouldn't just end up as being vikings by another name, but draw on different sources - for examples reindeer taming, or Bronze Age/Iron Age Atlantic roundhouse settlements, like Scara Brae, Brochs or what have you.]

- [I didn't know what to do about the Sun, or Celestial entities in general. There is obviously more to it - but I decided to make it non-specific in this list. I considered making Vadrus the killer of Yelm, a culmination of his oath of vengeance. I considered not connecting the Sun with the Bad Emperor at all. I considered shifting the blame over on the Danmalastans and Zzabur/Malkion, even. In the end, I still don't know. As you can tell, this leaves a lot of questions about the Dawn. In terms of specifics, the only thing I thought was a neat idea was to make the Sun mounted on a ship, and possibly being steered by one of those companions Ygg earned on his adventures before he became worthy of kingship. A helmsman would in general be a fitting companion.]

- [I wanted something alluding to the "Violence is Always An Option/There is Always Another Way", etc. of the Orlanthi, and "You Can Fight For Your Place" seemed like fitting at the time, and also helped highlight a possible mindset of the Yggites, in terms of piracy, traveling, clan membership, kingship, etc. More emphasis on the purpose of violence than the violence itself. Conan's Crom did spring to mind.]

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Vadrudi usually feel like "Orlanthi without the good parts", but I imagine there must somehow be more to it than that.

Already Umath laid the sources for a honorable barbarian society, with rules for hospitality (greeting Veskarthan as a stranger rather than as the half-brother the God Learner identifications would make him) etc. Vadrus was very much Umath's heir in this regard, the warrior king ruling through strength and intimidation. The Vadrudi raids were not exclusively for the fun of it, although that (possibly in a Kargan Tor measuring of strength style, as in Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros) may have been an important part for the participants. Getting lays as a reward through this means was nothing wrong to this bunch, which may somehow "explain" how their role in becoming the paternal ancestors of the merfolk tribes was not chaotic where Ragnaglar's rape of Thed was.

 

 

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

At the very least, they can't think of themselves that way! (Maybe there would also be some way to make the 'Imperial Gazellet' myth to make sense, because that one is just plain weird.) There's surely something about them apart from violence, rape, and pillage (even if that may be how outsiders see them)?

There's always the culture of feasting, boasting, etc.

All storm deities (with the exception of Humakt, at least after his role in wielding Death) started out as pastoralists. While there are a few carnivores associated with Storm gods (bears, alynxes, wolves), almost all kinds of herd mammals have some storm connection. (Possibly even some horses.) Hunting and fishing come with this, too.

There will have been sisters (if not wives of equal standing) overseeing the food side of the equation, and possibly overseeing the booty wives and their work. Orlanth's sisters are mentioned for his Downland Migration from Dini, although they soon get overshadowed by the powerful wives picked up on the way (e.g. Orane, and finally Ernalda).

Vadrus's sons may already have been softened by their mothers' influence. Other than Valind, none of them gets a recurring role in the Gods War soap opera, and (at least according to Orlanthi myth) Valind rose to prevalence among his brothers by showing his soft side to Orlanth at an opportune moment.

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Vadrus sometimes seems a bit like Ares, or Set - that asshat warrior you bring in when nothing else will do, even though it will suck afterwards. That myth with how only Vadrus could defeat the woolly rhinos (?) from a HW publication seems to support that kind reading.

Anaxial's Roster.

Vadrus was the war leader of the Storm Tribe, and before Orlanth (and Ernalda) established kingship, the War Leader was the top guy. Some of that mentality will have survived in any Vadrudi-derived culture.

Describing the Jonatings as similar to the Vadrudi strikes me as quite accurate.

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16 hours ago, metcalph said:

There was one in Hero Quest 1.0 but I felt it was somewhat lacking.

But it did have some cool spells, though, allowing your ship to weave through icebergs and about face if required.

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7 hours ago, soltakss said:

But it did have some cool spells, though, allowing your ship to weave through icebergs and about face if required.

It didn't feel like Ygg to me.  At the very least, Ygg should have been the God of the Icebergs and his original worshippers the inhabitants of those bergs.  For land-dwellers, things get a bit trickier but there is the precedence of glaciers.  The longships and lumber seems more like a development when the original old ways didn't work.

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On 1/29/2019 at 9:52 PM, Joerg said:

The links I had in the past to my otherwise unlinked Glorantha articles on my domain sartar.de might still work, but I have trouble accessing it in a writing mode since malware contained in the content management system my provider had me download from them inserted a spam link list word press fake page into my drupal page, and then my provider blocked my domains glorantha.de (which ran that drupal system) and sartar.de (which had old, manually created HTML3 and 4 pages). I still haven't found the drive to restore that (and all the estimated 80 print pages worth of Glorantha introductory material in German language that I failed to back up). The most relevant pieces of old were printed in Tradetalk.

 

In the more recent time, my productive comments on how I imagine the Yggites have been drowned out by my raging and ranting against the use of "Bronze Age" as Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent Bronze Age only (as that appears to be the only Bronze Age the Anglophone world is aware of). As much as I share the fascination with the Sea People who appeared at the onset of the Bronze Age Dark Ages, they and their ship types feel absolutely out of place in my perception of Glorantha.

If I were to tackle an Yggite campaign now, I would start re-reading Ottar's report of his journey around the North Cape. Ottar would be re-cast as a third generation Loskalmi overlord on one of the southern Yggite islands, with a native mother and grandmother (thinking of the Arab presence on the East African coast) with very little of Loskalmi sophistication remaining in his domain, and all the weird encounters that he related to King Alfred would be material for the various Yggite clans and possibly "tribes" (not that they remain stable in any way) further up the Winterwood coast.

The Hjortspring boat would be the model for most non-Wolf Pirate Yggite vessels, a genuine Bronze Age or possibly even Neolithic ship design if we can trust Scandinavian stone inscriptions, usable for whaling, seal hunting and warfare.

 

I wouldn't use any Inuit influences at all. They too seem wrong to my impression of the Yggites. Their interactions with European and American whalers are quite different from what I think the Yggites would have offered, both before and after the Closing (and the added problem of the Ban).

I briefly mentioned the Maori before as a possible second culture that has parallels with the Yggites. I am thinking of the period just after the Moas had gone extinct and the population explosion they had enabled was left with way too few resources, so the Maori had to take on some drastic changes to their previous life in plenty. This is possibly the best parallel other than the failed Viking colony in Greenland to what happened to the Yggites when the Closing fell on them, and then the Ban reduced their fishing and hunting grounds off the Winterwood proper, too.

 

On 1/29/2019 at 9:25 PM, Joerg said:

The Hjortspring boat extensions have been discussed as some sort of ram - no idea what the final conclusions were (if there are any).

A damn shame that you lost your writings. Is this the Ottar text that you mentioned: https://classesv2.yale.edu/access/content/user/haw6/Vikings/voyagers.html I've understood that the Hjortspring boat's protrusions' purpose was to function as handles and runner to help to pull the boat ashore. And yes, it's a good example of what the traditional Yggite boats could look like. Thanks for your answers.

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On 1/30/2019 at 4:40 AM, metcalph said:

The following are the best sources of information.  All of them were written by Greg and so are about as safe to use as say Middle Sea Empire.

Wyrms Footnotes p20.

Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars

Tales of the Reaching Moon #10 p7

Missing Lands p44 

 

On 1/30/2019 at 5:19 AM, metcalph said:

Harrek's migration was in 1616 ST.  The population statistics in the Guide are for 1621 ST.  The population figures for Three Steps isn't known but is not likely to be very large considering that Skullport is a small city; I would be surprised if it's more than 10,000.  Hence the half of the population is likely to be puffery.

Since the Wolf Pirates threw such considerations to the deep sea, it implies that the Yggites had such institutions.

There was one in Hero Quest 1.0 but I felt it was somewhat lacking.

The Yggites first appear in WF #11 (Spring 1981) as part of the Sea of Neliom article).  Vikings wasn't published until four years later.

I think wooden dowels are used as it's based on Aldryami designs.

I think their ships have figureheads instead.

Thanks for the answers. Yes, I also thought that the "half the population" was exaggerated because of the logistics involved. Wrt. to the Three Steps Islands' population, the Wolf Pirates in 1616 also carried away from the Holy Country “enough people and property to man a city,” according to one report. They could of course have sold many of them to slave markets. Wooden dowels would make sense since not only the ships are of Aldryami origins, but also because the ships would need over 1000 pounds of metal for them, which would get a bit expensive.

By the way, do the metals have the same price in RQG as they did in RQ3?

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1 hour ago, Brootse said:

A damn shame that you lost your writings.

Not lost, but hard to access and I can't be bothered to fix it at the time.

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

Exactly. A treasure trove for this kind of conditions, really, even though it is Karolingian (or, in the region visited, very late Roman Iron Age).

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

I've understood that the Hjortspring boat's protrusions' purpose was to function as handles and runner to help to pull the boat ashore.

They also appear to be somewhat functional in parting the waves in a video I have seen. The replica I watched being built about 12 years ago gave the impression that those beams would take some impact way better than the sides, so they might be useful in ramming, too. Viking longships had limited ramming capability, too, but you had to be careful to target only very weak targets.

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

And yes, it's a good example of what the traditional Yggite boats could look like. 

IMO it is one of the last examples of the Atlantic wooden boats that prevailed throughout their Bronze Age and into the Roman Iron Age.

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On 1/30/2019 at 8:00 AM, Lord High Munchkin said:

'Prince of Sartar' has some visual references.

Unfortunately the Prince of Sartar has closeups of the normal Wolf Pirates only on this page: http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/34-repaying-the-god-king/

They seem to resemble the Terran Sea People:

Ifhynh8.jpg

I would think that most of the Wolf Pirates would wear a bit more, at least back home on the Ygg's Isles :). Maybe they have adopted local fashion?

 

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9 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Wrt. to the Three Steps Islands' population, the Wolf Pirates in 1616 also carried away from the Holy Country “enough people and property to man a city,” according to one report. They could of course have sold many of them to slave markets.

Or ransomed them back to their families where the families were affluent enough to do so. This continues to be a real world industry in connection to piracy.

 

9 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Wooden dowels would make sense since not only the ships are of Aldryami origins, but also because the ships would need over 1000 pounds of metal for them, which would get a bit expensive.

The Hjortspring boat doesn't use dowels to keep the planks together, but has them sewn together (with bast, another tree product often overlooked even though good bast has the same material properties as nylon).

Ships built using this technology appear to have taken the rough sea more smoothly than the nailed variety, at least if King Sverre's laudatio for the sewn ships he received from the coastal "Finns" (Sami) was anything to go by.

But then, he and his men may just have been happy to leave the long night of the northern Norwegian coast, even if the official line was something like "god var det i gammen" - we had a fine time in the earth hut. Considering the alternative - homeless in the Norwegian winter - that's basically believable.

9 minutes ago, Brootse said:

By the way, do the metals have the same price in RQG as they did in RQ3?

Not exactly. RQ3 still operated on a coin economy, distantly inheriting from Pavis, and more from Roman Empire (or West Rome successor state) sources.

4 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Unfortunately the Prince of Sartar has closeups of the normal Wolf Pirates only on this page: http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/34-repaying-the-god-king/

The confrontation between Vasana and the Wolf Pirates shows similar dress.

Personally, I think this is taking the mediterranean Bronze Age theme way over the top. The feathered caps are nothing that a culture that experiences wet snow on a regular basis would consider wearing. The horned wicker helmets in the image below are cute, but service all the wrong Viking tropes.

4 minutes ago, Brootse said:

They seem to resemble the Terran Sea People:

Ifhynh8.jpg

I would think that most of the Wolf Pirates would wear a bit more, at least back home on the Ygg's Isles :). Maybe they have adopted local fashion?

Partial and even complete nudity apparently was totally acceptable in Viking society when the summer caused temperatures otherwise only known from the sauna. If the Yggites share the Orlanthi immunity to wind chill, the amount of fur and clothing worn by them may be significantly closer to (uncanonical) Conanesque barbarian dress, too.

I wonder if these feathered caps were inherited from the Vadeli who hired Yggite marines in droves, and probably equipped them, too. If the Wolf Pirate fleet depicted in Prince of Sartar has a tradition of Vadeli ships for mercenaries, I can make my peace with that. Or Alatan ship-building (the Three Step Isles don't have much of a ship-building tradition, but Alatan does).

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The Wolf Pirates shown in Prince of Sartar have the tan skin of more southerly Genertelans, like Esrolians, Caladralanders or Manirians, while Gunda the Guilty, a half-Jonating or -Junoran and half-Brithini is shown as nearly lily-white.

Maybe I'm assuming things here, but I'd say those guys are probably newer recruits from later travels, and actual Yggite Wolf Pirates will look a bit more like Gunda - them being geographically, and possibly ancestrally more closely linked. That's just speculation though - Harrek is portrayed as deep-tan, which I believe is canonical in the sense that the Rathori are said to have fairly dark skin, while their neighbors, the Reindeer Hsunchen, do not. I might remember some things wrong. Maybe he's just been out in the sun a lot.

EDIT: In terms of clothing, I would strongly argue that the Yggites wear woollen clothing over stereotypical fantasy furs, except in specific conditions. Partially this is because wool preserves its insulating properties even when wet (which is a huge boon if you're a sailor), but also because the Ygg's Isles are portrayed as fairly non-wooded, which would *seem* to make them better suited for sheep or goat grazing than hunting for pelts.

There are exceptions though - reindeer skins are probably useful for a lot of things, depending on how much of a Sami-vibe we give them, and since they are sealers, they are probably familiar with the positive properties of sealskin.

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Or ransomed them back to their families where the families were affluent enough to do so. This continues to be a real world industry in connection to piracy.

 

The Hjortspring boat doesn't use dowels to keep the planks together, but has them sewn together (with bast, another tree product often overlooked even though good bast has the same material properties as nylon).

Ships built using this technology appear to have taken the rough sea more smoothly than the nailed variety, at least if King Sverre's laudatio for the sewn ships he received from the coastal "Finns" (Sami) was anything to go by.

But then, he and his men may just have been happy to leave the long night of the northern Norwegian coast, even if the official line was something like "god var det i gammen" - we had a fine time in the earth hut. Considering the alternative - homeless in the Norwegian winter - that's basically believable.

Not exactly. RQ3 still operated on a coin economy, distantly inheriting from Pavis, and more from Roman Empire (or West Rome successor state) sources.

The confrontation between Vasana and the Wolf Pirates shows similar dress.

Personally, I think this is taking the mediterranean Bronze Age theme way over the top. The feathered caps are nothing that a culture that experiences wet snow on a regular basis would consider wearing. The horned wicker helmets in the image below are cute, but service all the wrong Viking tropes.

Partial and even complete nudity apparently was totally acceptable in Viking society when the summer caused temperatures otherwise only known from the sauna. If the Yggites share the Orlanthi immunity to wind chill, the amount of fur and clothing worn by them may be significantly closer to (uncanonical) Conanesque barbarian dress, too.

I wonder if these feathered caps were inherited from the Vadeli who hired Yggite marines in droves, and probably equipped them, too. If the Wolf Pirate fleet depicted in Prince of Sartar has a tradition of Vadeli ships for mercenaries, I can make my peace with that. Or Alatan ship-building (the Three Step Isles don't have much of a ship-building tradition, but Alatan does).

Hah, I found the horned helmeted Gloranthan "Vikings" funny, and adopted the helmet style for my campaign :). I think that the Wolf Pirates who have traveled to far off places with exotic birds might want to put colourful feathers on their helmets to show off to their less traveled shipmates. And until modern warfare soldiers and warriors competed on who had the flashiest uniforms and the tallest hats and helmets.

What are the current metal prices?

Speaking of saunas, iirc in the canonical sources they were a Zorian thing. But I can't for the world remember where I read that. Googling for Gloranthan Saunas I found this funny thing:

https://www.glorantha.com/great-fun-was-had-at-ropecon-the-hounds-of-the-high-princess-of-low-delight-killed-the-dark-sorcerer/

Even though I am a Finn and love saunas, I'm not sure if I'd want visit one with Ralzakark :).

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38 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Wolf Pirates shown in Prince of Sartar have the tan skin of more southerly Genertelans, like Esrolians, Caladralanders or Manirians, while Gunda the Guilty, a half-Jonating or -Junoran and half-Brithini is shown as nearly lily-white.

Maybe I'm asssuming things here, but I'd say those guys are probably newer recruits from later travels, and actual Yggite Wolf Pirates will look a bit more like Gunda - them being geographyically, and possibly ancestrally more closely linked. That's just speculation though - Harrek is portrayed as deep-tan, which I believe is canonical in the sense that the Rathori are said to have fairly dark skin, while they neighbors, the Reindeer Hsunchen, do not. I might remember some things wrong. Maybe he's just been out in the sun a lot.

Yeah, thought about the same thing.

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