[Runequest Glorantha] Rune Points? Magic Points? Eh?

[PoppySeed45]

As it says, I'm really stuck on what the difference is, and how to use (or not use?) Rune Points. I've read the relevant magic sections on RQG, and I get shaman magic just fine. Rune Magic is throwing me for a loop however, as it seems (or doesn't seem?) that both Magic Points and Rune Points are used for...something? And that Rune Points represent POW sacrificed to the god/goddess to join the cult, and can be replenished from Worship for the god/goddess, but...when and why are Rune Points depleted at all? Where does it say in the book how they get used or made at character creation or, well, anything? I feel like I'm missing something easy and fundamental but its slipping by me.

I've played LOTS of BRP type games, and own Mythras and Magic World. The magic systems in those are pretty straightforward, no huhu. But the one in RQG is driving me nuts. Please help!

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, StanTheMan said:

As it says, I'm really stuck on what the difference is, and how to use (or not use?) Rune Points. I've read the relevant magic sections on RQG, and I get shaman magic just fine. Rune Magic is throwing me for a loop however, as it seems (or doesn't seem?) that both Magic Points and Rune Points are used for...something? And that Rune Points represent POW sacrificed to the god/goddess to join the cult, and can be replenished from Worship for the god/goddess, but...when and why are Rune Points depleted at all? Where does it say in the book how they get used or made at character creation or, well, anything? I feel like I'm missing something easy and fundamental but its slipping by me.

I've played LOTS of BRP type games, and own Mythras and Magic World. The magic systems in those are pretty straightforward, no huhu. But the one in RQG is driving me nuts. Please help!

It is very easy. Magic Points are based on POW. They are used to power spirit magic spells, sorcery spells, and the occasional other magical activity. They replenish easily and quickly.

Rune Points are based on permanently sacrificed POW. They are used to power Rune Spells. They replenish only through worship ceremonies.

[PoppySeed45]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is very easy. Magic Points are based on POW. They are used to power spirit magic spells, sorcery spells, and the occasional other magical activity. They replenish easily and quickly.

Rune Points are based on permanently sacrificed POW. They are used to power Rune Spells. They replenish only through worship ceremonies.

Ah, I see. So, MP isn't used for Rune Magic at all then? Only sacrificed POW (in the form of Rune Points)? So, only RPs for Rune Magic? If that's so, it solves everything! And makes sense with the intent of the rules (i.e., a devotee of a god/goddess must give up something to gain the god's ability/favor/whatever).

Edited January 30, 2019 by StanTheMan

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, StanTheMan said:

Ah, I see. So, MP isn't used for Rune Magic at all then? Only sacrificed POW (in the form of Rune Points)? So, only RPs for Rune Magic? If that's so, it solves everything! And makes sense with the intent of the rules (i.e., a devotee of a god/goddess must give up something to gain the god's ability/favor/whatever).

Some Rune Magic will also require MPs - Heal Wound, Sword Trance, etc., this will be stated in the spell description.

[PoppySeed45]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

Some Rune Magic will also require MPs - Heal Wound, Sword Trance, etc., this will be stated in the spell description.

As I've now figured out on a different thread on a different board:

Essentially, MP is used for doing magical things (usually spells), including Rune Magic. Rune Points, however, are ONLY used for Rune Magic, and can only be replenished through Worship activities. To do Rune Magic, you need Rune Points. Without them, you can't do Rune Magic. Which means RPs are a limiter for Rune Magic, since it's harder to get them back. MP is a limiter too, but less of one, since it's easy (natural or quick) to get them back. 

Do I have it, finally?

[PhilHibbs]

1 minute ago, StanTheMan said:

Do I have it, finally?

Spot on. You can also have MP storage, in crystals or matrixes or allied spirits, but you can't have RP storage (unless they introduce rules for Truestone that do that, but that's a big can of wyrms).

Another subtlety is that, if you are a member of more than one cult, you have a separate Rune Point pool for each cult. Your Orlanth magic uses Orlanth Rune Points, and your Argan Argar magic uses Argan Argar Rune Points, and you need to get them back at different worship ceremonies (unless there is a joint one for some reason, such as an Ernaldan service for all the Husband Protector Deities, ask your GM nicely).

[g33k]

3 hours ago, StanTheMan said:

As I've now figured out on a different thread on a different board:

Essentially, MP is used for doing magical things (usually spells), including Rune Magic. Rune Points, however, are ONLY used for Rune Magic, and can only be replenished through Worship activities. To do Rune Magic, you need Rune Points. Without them, you can't do Rune Magic. Which means RPs are a limiter for Rune Magic, since it's harder to get them back. MP is a limiter too, but less of one, since it's easy (natural or quick) to get them back. 

Do I have it, finally?

Mostly, yes.  Rune Magic has some per-spell complications/exceptions on MP use... MP's are used for SOME of the Rune Magic, but not all; and when used, not always identically.  For example:

• Sword Trance (and Axe Trance) NEED to have one or more MP's:  their effect is based entirely on using those MP's to "fuel" the spell; you also need the initial RP to cast it, of course!
• Berserker has a fixed effect, which doesn't use MP's at all, and doesn't change with added MP's.
• Axis Mundi gets its duration (normally 15 min's)  extended if you add MP's for that purpose (+15min's per MP)..

Finally, MP's are often stacked onto a spell in an effort to overcome defensive magic.

Edited January 30, 2019 by g33k
clarification, typo

[PoppySeed45]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Mostly, yes.  Rune Magic has some per-spell complications/exceptions on MP use... MP's are used for SOME of the Rune Magic, but not all; and when used, not always identically.  For example:

• Sword Trance (and Axe Trance) NEED to have one or more MP's:  their effect is based entirely on using those MP's to "fuel" the spell; you also need the initial RP to cast it, of course!
• Berserker has a fixed effect, which doesn't change with added MP's
• Axis Mundi gets its duration (normally 15 min's)  extended if you add MP's for that purpose (+15min's per MP)..

Finally, MP's are often stacked onto a spell in an effert to overcome defensive magic.

Ah yes, adding points to overcome defensive magic. Forgot about that (and just read it like last night). So, my understanding is coming along and the boards are helping a lot. Thanks for that!

[creativehum]

It took me a while, and a several conversations on this board, to realize that "stacking"  Magic Points is not about increasing effectiveness of a spell, but part of the back and forth battle of counter magic -- which is cool! 

[g33k]

7 minutes ago, creativehum said:

It took me a while, and a several conversations on this board, to realize that "stacking"  Magic Points is not about increasing effectiveness of a spell, but part of the back and forth battle of counter magic -- which is cool! 

Unfortunately, the same term (stacking) is also often used when it IS about increasing the spell-effect, e.g. "How many MP's are you stacking onto that Heal Wound spell?"   This may or may not be a "correct" usage,  but I have seen it used that way here & elsewhere, heard it played that way at different tables.

 

At least it's not D&D's "Level" -- character level, spell level, level of the dungeon... gah!

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by g33k

[creativehum]

The text uses the terms "stack" and "boost." Usually "stack" refers to increasing the effectiveness of the spell, and "boost" to increasing the spell's effectiveness in matters of counter-magic. If the terms had been used consistently (and even better, all terms defined on a specific page for easy reference) that would have been great.

But...

Quote

Axe Trance

1 Point

Self, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell must be boosted with 1 or more magic points. Each magic point expended increases the caster’s Axe skill by +10% for the spell’s duration. This spell may be combined with other weapon-enhancing spells. This spell does not combine effects with Berserker or Fanaticism. But the terms are sometimes used interchangeable.

[emphasis added]

My first readings of the text really did send me down a spiral of confusion as I tried to make sense of several points. This was one of them.

Edited January 30, 2019 by creativehum

[soltakss]

Although it has been worked out, here is how I use Magic Points and Rune Points.

Magic Points are a temporary resource that can be used and regained very easily. It is your current personal magical energy and has a normal maximum of your POW. Magic Points are used to cast Spirit Magic (Old-world Battle Magic) and Sorcery. Most people resist spells using their Magic Points, although Rune Lords resist with their POW (unless that has been changed in RQG). Magic Points can be used to boost other spells, giving them the strength to blast through magical protection, without affecting the effect of the spell. Magic Points are also sometimes used to power Rune Spells, but not to cast them, so Heal Wound /Area uses Magic Points to heal, or Sword Trance uses Magic Points to increase the Sword skill.

Rune Points are a rune pool formed by sacrificing POW, or rather moving POW from you to the Rune Pool. Each point of POW thus sacrificed/moved counts as a single Rune Point. Rune Points are used to cast Rune Magic (Old World Divine Magic). Each cult has a different Rune Pool, so a character can have 5 Rune Points (Orlanth) and 3 Rune Points (Storm Bull). I play that shared spells can be cast using either pool, so that a worshipper of both Orlanth and Storm Bull could cast Face Chaos using either the Storm Bull or Orlanth pool.

[womble]

9 hours ago, StanTheMan said:

As I've now figured out on a different thread on a different board:

Essentially, MP is used for doing magical things (usually spells), including Rune Magic. Rune Points, however, are ONLY used for Rune Magic, and can only be replenished through Worship activities. To do Rune Magic, you need Rune Points. Without them, you can't do Rune Magic. Which means RPs are a limiter for Rune Magic, since it's harder to get them back. MP is a limiter too, but less of one, since it's easy (natural or quick) to get them back. 

Do I have it, finally?

[Hoping to add clarity:] only some Rune Magic requires the expenditure of MP. Most require the expenditure of only RP. MP is only a limiter for those spells that need MP to increase their effect (like [weapon] Trance or Heal Wound). Casting Dismiss Magic 2 only costs 2 RP, not 2RP and 2MP.

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

... (unless there is a joint one for some reason, such as an Ernaldan service for all the Husband Protector Deities, ask your GM nicely).

Tangentially, since both those Cults are Associated Cults of Ernalda, (I consider, them being husband-protectors an' all) you could worship both at pretty much any Ernaldan Worship Ceremony for a d6 RP replenishment.