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Marc

Movement Rate

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Jason has recently posted some answers on the Core Rules thread that confused me. Rather than pollute that thread, which is supposed to be where we get official Chaosium answers to rules questions, with a discussion on this, I thought I'd start a new thread.

The first post I noticed from Jason was this one:

I replied to that, saying that I'd always thought the text on page 54 was a mistake, and the the word "meters" should be "MOV units", and referenced the text on page 82:

 

Movement is rated in movement units (MOV), each unit
equaling 3 meters. All human adventurer can move 8
movement units in a melee round (up to 24 meters), unless
stated otherwise.

 

Jason quickly replied to that:

Which really surprised me( the answer, not that he replied quickly ).  When I played RQ2, I had always gone with 8 MOV meant you could move 24 meters in a melee round, and RQ2 also explictly stated that the running speed for bipeds was MOVx2, which implies to me that the melee move of 24 meters was walking.

 

So, I'm curious how others have interpreted this. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Marc said:

So, I'm curious how others have interpreted this. 

I interpret it as a bad idea. 24 meters per round is a lot closer to real world walking speeds than running speeds. 

 

In RQ2 a character could stroll 240 meters in a full turn (25 melee rounds), and run 1000 meters in a full turn. That worked out to a running rate of 40 meters per round.

In RQ3, an average character moved at 3m/SR, but could double that by running, to about 48 meters per round (the actual amount varied by DEX SR)

In the BRP BGB, the rate was variable, with an average of 3m per MOV, but as much as 5m per move at a run. 

So characters are now running about half as fast as before, and slow compared to real world rates. 

 

 

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Movement in a combat is very rarely actual running. I've seen it described in some rulesets (possibly even RQ-previous) as 'hustling'. That reflects the 24m/round speed, as far as I'm concerned. Run is twice that. I allow a sprint at 3x and a dash at 4x speed, but with reductions in rate imposed by encumberance. I'm still noodling quite how to hard rule that increased speeds can't be maintained indefinitely. Strength rolls for the fast end of the spectrum, and CON x [small number] to maintain it.

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However, it is irritating that Movement is another casualty of RQ2/RQ3 rules being used interchangeably. 

If they wanted to stick with RQ2's Movement then they should have explained it more, if RQ3 then they should have explained that, instead they have a confusing hybrid that needs more explanation.

For me, RQ3 Movement (3m per SR) gives you a movement of 30m per round. RQG Movement gives you 24m per round, which equates to 2m per SR (12 SR per round, rather than RQ3's 10). Simply explaining that would have been nice and easy.

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

However, it is irritating that Movement is another casualty of RQ2/RQ3 rules being used interchangeably. 

If they wanted to stick with RQ2's Movement then they should have explained it more, if RQ3 then they should have explained that, instead they have a confusing hybrid that needs more explanation.

For me, RQ3 Movement (3m per SR) gives you a movement of 30m per round. RQG Movement gives you 24m per round, which equates to 2m per SR (12 SR per round, rather than RQ3's 10). Simply explaining that would have been nice and easy.

That's the hang up: movement rate has been divorced from Strike Ranks entirely - it happens before you start counting SR. A human can move 24 meters before SR 1; Strike ranks are simply a means of determining initiative for spells & attacks & other actions in "combat time"; If you've moved that round (and moved no more than half your allowed movement) you incur an SR penalty to your actions. At least, that's RAW, and it is MUCH faster than having to move everyone one at a time as you count through the strike ranks.

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10 hours ago, womble said:

Movement in a combat is very rarely actual running.  I've seen it described in some rulesets (possibly even RQ-previous) as 'hustling'.

That would be fine, if it were presented that way, and if running were incorporated somehow. It makes a huge difference with how many attacks missile troops can make before the target gets behind cover or closes to melee distance. 

10 hours ago, womble said:

That reflects the 24m/round speed, as far as I'm concerned. Run is twice that. I allow a sprint at 3x and a dash at 4x speed, but with reductions in rate imposed by encumberance. I'm still noodling quite how to hard rule that increased speeds can't be maintained indefinitely. Strength rolls for the fast end of the spectrum, and CON x [small number] to maintain it.

I could live with that. But as it stands now the base move of 1m per MOV works out to a slow walk, and 24m. round is a brisk walk, not a run. That's based on how fast people actually move rather than just preference.

I could also live with a increase to movement when out of combat, like some RPGs have. But five rounds to run 120m is too long, and give archers a huge advantage. 

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, RQ3 Movement (3m per SR) gives you a movement of 30m per round.

Only if your DEX SR was 1. For most characters, it would be less. For DEX SR 3 characters it would be 24m. But in RQ3 you could double that by running.

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

 

RQG Movement gives you 24m per round, which equates to 2m per SR (12 SR per round, rather than RQ3's 10). Simply explaining that would have been nice and easy.

 

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I also treat SR as much more of an 'impulse' system because the whole treatment in RAW is borked, as far as I'm concerned. 

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I like to keep it simple and use 3m hexes. Each round a character can move 8-ENC penalty hexes. If you move more than half MOV then that's all you can do for the round. Those that move half or less can interact with other combatants with a +1 SR penalty per hex moved. If the PC is starting from stationary  they start to move on their DEX SR.

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33 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I like to keep it simple and use 3m hexes. Each round a character can move 8-ENC penalty hexes. If you move more than half MOV then that's all you can do for the round. Those that move half or less can interact with other combatants with a +1 SR penalty per hex moved. If the PC is starting from stationary  they start to move on their DEX SR.

That's exactly what I have always done.  I also interpret the "Movement of non-engaged characters" to mean those characters not currently in any combat(missile or melee ), and not targeted for any combat by the current statements of intent. So, if a character is moving, but someone has said they're going to shoot him with a composite bow on SR x, we figure out how far the target could move by SR x, and determine if the shot is still possible.

 

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Just a note: 24m/RQG round (or 'likely' RQ3 speed) = 120m/min = about 4.5 mph or 7.25 kph

30m/RQ3 round = 150m/min  = 5.6mph or 9 kph

Both are pretty substantially over the commonly accepted human walk speed of 3.5 mph.  Even a pretty determined (not speed-walking, mind you - think 'angry walk' speed) walk is about 4mph.  

Doubling that for an extended run speed is probably close, as marathon runners can do about 9mph.

But for a short sprint which can hit 13-14 mph for a normal person (around 18mph for NFL linebackers, 28mph for Usain Bolt) you could triple it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, styopa said:

Just a note: 24m/RQG round (or 'likely' RQ3 speed) = 120m/min = about 4.5 mph or 7.25 kph

30m/RQ3 round = 150m/min  = 5.6mph or 9 kph

Both are pretty substantially over the commonly accepted human walk speed of 3.5 mph.  Even a pretty determined (not speed-walking, mind you - think 'angry walk' speed) walk is about 4mph.  

Doubling that for an extended run speed is probably close, as marathon runners can do about 9mph.

But for a short sprint which can hit 13-14 mph for a normal person (around 18mph for NFL linebackers, 28mph for Usain Bolt) you could triple it.

Yes, but the problem is that the 24m/RQG round is the running speed! The RQG walking speed is only 8m/RQG round, or about 2.4kph or 1.5 mph.

Hence why I keep saying it is too slow. 

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but the problem is that the 24m/RQG round is the running speed! The RQG walking speed is only 8m/RQG round, or about 2.4kph or 1.5 mph.

Hence why I keep saying it is too slow. 

I will probably just call that "running, but carefully" (i.e. in a melee, where you need to slow/detour regularly, etc; or in broken terrain; etc) and/or "running for distance."  And then offer double the "run" speed as a "sprint."  Bump a bit more for an "unencumbered" courier.

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3 hours ago, g33k said:

... "running, but carefully" (i.e. in a melee, where you need to slow/detour regularly, etc; or in broken terrain; etc)...

AKA "hustle".

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How fast do you run in armor?  I have done it, but I dont think I have ever been timed at it.  I once chase a witch in a full length skirt when I was wear full chain, heavy greaves and a full size roman cavalry shield through a field of waist high grass.  I bet we did not get much if any over 5 mph.  In the Army I was the pace setter to hit 15 minute miles, and I did a lot of them, so I have a good idea of what 4 MPH is.  I just dont know how fast you can waddle in full armor carrying a pack.  Not very is my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

How fast do you run in armor?  I have done it, but I dont think I have ever been timed at it.  I once chase a witch in a full length skirt when I was wear full chain, heavy greaves and a full size roman cavalry shield through a field of waist high grass.  I bet we did not get much if any over 5 mph.  In the Army I was the pace setter to hit 15 minute miles, and I did a lot of them, so I have a good idea of what 4 MPH is.  I just dont know how fast you can waddle in full armor carrying a pack.  Not very is my opinion.

My experience tells me I can hit 'run' speed in full armour, carrying a pack. By 'run', I mean the sort of speed I can maintain for a mile when unencumbered. But I can't keep it up any longer than I could maintain a sprint, in sports kit (couple of hundred metre). I can't say with any accuracy how well my 'few paces' speed, in mail, greaves, vambraces and large shield compares to the same in lighter gear, because it's much more difficult to gauge, I'm afraid. I also can't say how much long grass would slow me :)

My experience is by no means universal, though. I'm stocky and on the strong side; I walk, even in full adventuring kit carrying supplies and equipment beyond panoply, faster than 'the rest of the party' including mages in robes and underweight packs (often ending up being told to stay back out of the scouts' way... :) ). 

As a passing note, it is my observation that, lacking a declared party order (and someone enforcing it), a group of adventurers will string out according to movement speed in pretty much whatever terrain they're within, and there's a lot more variation in that speed than most rule sets offer.

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23 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

How fast do you run in armor?  I have done it, but I dont think I have ever been timed at it.  I once chase a witch in a full length skirt when I was wear full chain, heavy greaves and a full size roman cavalry shield through a field of waist high grass.  I bet we did not get much if any over 5 mph.  In the Army I was the pace setter to hit 15 minute miles, and I did a lot of them, so I have a good idea of what 4 MPH is.  I just dont know how fast you can waddle in full armor carrying a pack.  Not very is my opinion.

There was a programme on the TV the other day where Danny Dyer was looking at the lives of his ancestors, and one was Sir Henry "Hotspur" Percy. This was around 1400, so his armour may be more sophisticated than that available in Glorantha, so that should be taken into account. They talked about him training by running through the woods in full armour, but I don't remember if they mentioned how fast he was supposed to be. Dyer was dead beat in seconds, but the expert was making quite an impressive pace, and once he got moving, he was pretty much unstoppable due to the momentum of the armour. I would not want to have been in his way.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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39 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

How fast do you run in armor?  I have done it, but I dont think I have ever been timed at it.  I once chase a witch in a full length skirt when I was wear full chain, heavy greaves and a full size roman cavalry shield through a field of waist high grass.  I bet we did not get much if any over 5 mph.  In the Army I was the pace setter to hit 15 minute miles, and I did a lot of them, so I have a good idea of what 4 MPH is.  I just dont know how fast you can waddle in full armor carrying a pack.  Not very is my opinion.

As fast as I run without armor-just not for as long. And I'd bet I could run even faster if people were shooting arrows at me.

The 24m/round is excluseto RQG, too. Characters in RQ2, RQ3 and BRP are faster.

 

Edited by Atgxtg

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Womble if things where really going to eat them I bet formation would be more up front in their mind.  Physical conditioning plays a huge part.  And it does you very little good to sprint up to a fight, only to arrive to out of breath to really fight.  So, in general I am in favor of relatively low speeds.But, there should be a lot more individual variation than there is.

 

But, in the end, does it make any difference enjoyment of play?  Wii my group be happier if we get exact calculatios of speed based on a lot of different things?  for me at least, I dont think so

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What armor makes a huge difference.  My cavalry greaves cut my speed way down.  The same weight of whatever on my shoulders made little difference.  But how much is it worth to work it out?  When I was 19 and had no life, I liked tractics.   Now I dont think I could find an opponent even if I could find a copy of the rules.

 

My group plays on a small table, so ranges are short to start with.  The players felt movement was a little slow, so they mostly got the spell mobility.  If they had not I may well have up movement a bit anyway.  I want sword swingers to dominate, not bowmen

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16 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

What armor makes a huge difference.  My cavalry greaves cut my speed way down.  The same weight of whatever on my shoulders made little difference. 

Indeed. RQ3 had leg armour weighing in at twice the encumbrance of 'equivalent' arm protection.

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1 hour ago, womble said:

Indeed. RQ3 had leg armour weighing in at twice the encumbrance of 'equivalent' arm protection.

That was just area-based? IIRC legs and chest were all considered 2/10 of a full suit, each other location being 1/10.

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10 minutes ago, styopa said:

That was just area-based? IIRC legs and chest were all considered 2/10 of a full suit, each other location being 1/10.

Aye. But if you consider only the quantity of material/absolute weight of a set of leg armour, it's not twice the mass of an equivalent piece of arm protection, and might even weigh less than similar protection to the abdomen. It feels like/wears you out more because you have to pick it up and move it with every lift of the foot.

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Now my head hurts!  😵

I prefer simple tactical movement systems.  "Your character moves X hexes per combat round, period.  You can move half of that and still attack."  

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2 hours ago, womble said:

Aye. But if you consider only the quantity of material/absolute weight of a set of leg armour, it's not twice the mass of an equivalent piece of arm protection, and might even weigh less than similar protection to the abdomen. It feels like/wears you out more because you have to pick it up and move it with every lift of the foot.

This. Test it out, you don't even need access to armor. Wrist and ankle weights, perhaps a weight vest as well. As others have said, its not that you can't be as fast, its that you take longer to get to speed, and can't maintain it for as long. 

As for the issue of MOV in the game, the people that I've always gamed with have considered this not so much "how fast can you move?", but more "how fast can you move and maintain situational awareness. To that, and with what Womble said above, there should probably be a DEX (or Strike Rank) penalty and fatigue component to armor wear. The fatigue component wouldn't have to be anywhere as fiddly as RQ3, just something simple as a roll of some type after exertion, as determined by the GM.

SDLeary

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3 hours ago, seneschal said:

Now my head hurts!  😵

I prefer simple tactical movement systems.  "Your character moves X hexes per combat round, period.  You can move half of that and still attack."  

It's what we do and it generally works and is tactically fun, but then again we do most of our important combats on a hexmap where each hex =1m.  Roll your init; add your Dex mod (we've inverted the SR system, so higher is better).  GM counts down through the round, when it's your action, you move 1 hex per SR, refacings are free.*  Moves are all simultaneous; if both NPCs and PCs are moving in a SR, the PCs can choose if they move first or last each SR.

*run for 2x movement, but if running you have to move 1 hex forward and can only face-change by 1 per hex.

It's rough, it's not perfect, but it's fast and tactical.

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