Jump to content
merrick

The new Dwarves

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, merrick said:

Trying to compare the new dwarves to RQ2 . Any thoughts?

In what way? The RQG view of dwarves reflects the thoughts that Greg elaborated back in DW 24(?) back in the early 80's when RQ2 was still the in-print version.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What Harald/ @jajagappa said.

RQ2 had dwarves in Pavis and in Griffin Mountain. Both are connected to Greatway, where the dwarves are Individualist and Openhandist-leaning, just on the border of the Nidan definition of dwarven apostasy, and more often than not well beyond orthodoxy.

Both these products were screwed into the setting of Glorantha after their conception, and came with standard elves and dwarves of the early eighties products. Compare e.g. Midkemia for a rpg setting with some substance.

Also compare the Judges Guild dwarves, probably the biggest dwarven supplement that there was from the RQ2 era (those very nice dungeon floorplan cutouts etc.). All of these were for a Generic Fantasy RuneQuest, but will have entered many a gaming group's Gloranthan experience as they were available supplements of high gaming value, and available for the system. But they never were Gloranthan from their conception, and they would fit nicely into Midkemia.

The Flintnail cult is an example how to make a round plug fill a square hole through invention of myths. The Balazar dwarf encounters are somewhat similar, with less effort being spent on their mythical background. Openhanded, Individualist heretics (what other dwarves would leave their lairs?) that would have been evicted or recycled as apostates if coming from Nida, and probably just barely tolerated in Greatway as incorrigible heretics.

 

Edited by Joerg
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/4/2019 at 10:13 PM, merrick said:

Trying to compare the new dwarves to RQ2 . Any thoughts?

RQ2 had Flintnail as a Mostali heresy and Mostali dwarves in their mountains. RQG has the same. 

The only difference is that the Mostali have been greatly expanded on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main thing that changed between RQ2 and RQG regarding dwarves is that in RQ2 Mostali magic was assumed to be mostly Rune magic, now it is assumed to mostly be sorcery (or a variant of sorcery). But that change took place way back in the RQ3 era, so has been Gloranthan canon for nearly 30 years, 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The visual depictions of the Mostali in the G2G pretty much dispel any comparisons with generic high fantasy Dwarves. They hearken back to an earlier fable-fantasy flavour, unusual and mysterious.

Although they are different from how I originally thought of them, these days I envison the Mostali as  devilish Brian Froudish beings, something for humans to be wary of, unless they are dealing with aberrant Openhandists, and even then it pays to be cautious.

I think I now prefer these images of the Mostali from the G2G rather than the ones in the RQG book, they just seem more fantasy flavoured, eccentric, gnomish, goblinoid, and alien.

Image result for Mostali Guide To Glorantha

Image result for glorantha dwarves

 

 

 

Edited by Mankcam
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/5/2019 at 4:51 AM, Joerg said:

 

Also compare the Judges Guild dwarves, probably the biggest dwarven supplement that there was from the RQ2 era (those very nice dungeon floorplan cutouts etc.). All of these were for a Generic Fantasy RuneQuest, but will have entered many a gaming group's Gloranthan experience as they were available supplements of high gaming value, and available for the system. But they never were Gloranthan from their conception, and they would fit nicely into Midkemia.

The Flintnail cult is an example how to make a round plug fill a square hole through invention of myths. The Balazar dwarf encounters are somewhat similar, with less effort being spent on their mythical background. Openhanded, Individualist heretics (what other dwarves would leave their lairs?) that would have been evicted or recycled as apostates if coming from Nida, and probably just barely tolerated in Greatway as incorrigible heretics.

 

Which Judges Guild products had dwarves in them, especially which one was the biggest dwarven supplement that there was from the RQ2 era?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/5/2019 at 8:51 PM, Joerg said:

Also compare the Judges Guild dwarves, probably the biggest dwarven supplement that there was from the RQ2 era (those very nice dungeon floorplan cutouts etc.).

What supplement are you referring to?  AFAIK there was no Judges' Guild RQ2 product detailing dwarves (or any other RQ race).  Nor can I think of any supplement from any publisher detailing dwarves in RQ2, other than the articles in Different Worlds.  I vaguely recall that Mayfair Games did a "Dwarves" book, but that was for AD&D, although it may well have been easily adapted for "Gateway" RQ settings.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember that there was a generic fantasy supplement for Dwarves in the early 1980s, I think it was multi-stated for D&D and RQ2. The Dwarves were very high fantasy flavoured, it had a good underground city map and it may have been a sandbox setting.

I reckon it will be the one Joerg is referring to. I have no idea if it actually was a Judges Guild book or not. However from memory I can also envision it looking along the lines like a Judges Guild or Midkemia Press production - it is definately a product of that era.

I'll hunt it down and return with the info in a few hours, unless someone else sheds light on it beforehand.

Edited by Mankcam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's an unfortunate name 😂

I never knew that existed, and yes it was actually made by Judges Guild. Could be the one Joerg mentioned, although I don't think it was for RQ, it's hard to tell, it may have been statless so it could have universal use. It's actually on DrivethruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1026/Glory-Hole-Dwarven-Mine-1981?it=1

It wasn't the one I am remembering, which did have RQ2 stats.

Edited by Mankcam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord High Munchkin said:

Sounds like 'The Halls of the Dwarven Kings' by Integrated Games (tied in with Endless Plans) 1984.

Yes, you're correct,  that's definately the one I remember. It is 'The Halls Of The Dwarven Kings'  - Set 1 in The Complete Dungeon Master Series -  by Integrated Games , back in the early 1980s. Was a british product.

Very good maps, quite good depiction of high fantasy Dwarves (not Gloranthan Mostali). Several versions were produced, each with different game stats - D&D, AD&D, RQ2, and possibly WHFRP.

This was the cover:

Image result for The Halls Of The Dwarven King Integrated Games

...and for anyone trying to chase it up, here's the listing details: https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/46468/halls-dwarven-kings

 

Edited by Mankcam
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

It is 'The Halls Of The Dwarven Kings'  - Set 1 in The Complete Dungeon Master Series

Don't think I ever saw that one.

DW 24 was the first real breakout of Glorantha dwarfs, and they were clearly in the World Machine by then (though still looking very 'human').

http://www.diffworlds.com/dw_13-24.htm

dw_24.jpg

Edited by jajagappa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

That's an unfortunate name 😂

I never knew that existed, and yes it was actually made by Judges Guild. Could be the one Joerg mentioned, although I don't think it was for RQ, it's hard to tell, it may have been statless so it could have universal use. It's actually on DrivethruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1026/Glory-Hole-Dwarven-Mine-1981?it=1

It wasn't the one I am remembering, which did have RQ2 stats.

The DTRPG listing specifically mentions the "City State of the Invincible Overlord" so that's the (default) setting.  It's JG's "house" setting for the D&D ruleset.

FWIW, that doesn't rule out a RQ2 set of stats being included.  Because they often rolled that way, Back In The Day...

😁

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

... DW 24 was the first real breakout of Glorantha dwarfs, and they were clearly in the World Machine by then (though still looking very 'human')...

I've got to wonder how much time/attention were placed on "art direction" for this?  I mean, clearly some art of the era is STILL considered a "reference standard" for Glorantha.

Other art... Not so much.  Sometimes it's an actual /change/ to the way "element X" is envisioned; other times, I think there just wasn't ANY clear vision of "element X" so the editor/whoever just shrugged and said "not quite how I'd have envisioned it... But then again I don't HAVE a preferred vision."

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether a given piece is still "canonical" (or nearly so), or entirely-not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/8/2019 at 7:29 PM, soltakss said:

RQ2 had Flintnail as a Mostali heresy and Mostali dwarves in their mountains. RQG has the same. 

The only difference is that the Mostali have been greatly expanded on.

I sometimes wondered if the Flintnail dwarves were apostate, but since they didn't play a big part in my Pavis campaign I didn't have to give my fatwa about it. But is it canon that they are "just" heretics? The Glorantha wiki says that they are Openhandists, but the Guide says that:

More serious than heresy is apostasy (the abandonment of the dwarf way). Under this state of affairs, the Way of Mostal is completely violated, for example by sacrificing to a god other than Mostal. Apostate dwarves become mortal. The Decamony does not condemn specific apostasies – the fallen state is obvious for all dwarves to see. An apostate dwarf is termed “broken.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, g33k said:

I've got to wonder how much time/attention were placed on "art direction" for this?  I mean, clearly some art of the era is STILL considered a "reference standard" for Glorantha.

Other art... Not so much.  Sometimes it's an actual /change/ to the way "element X" is envisioned; other times, I think there just wasn't ANY clear vision of "element X" so the editor/whoever just shrugged and said "not quite how I'd have envisioned it... But then again I don't HAVE a preferred vision."

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether a given piece is still "canonical" (or nearly so), or entirely-not.

This gold dwarf is in the Guide:

rvN39bX.png

Maybe he was made to look more pleasing to the human eyes?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, g33k said:

I've got to wonder how much time/attention were placed on "art direction" for this?  I mean, clearly some art of the era is STILL considered a "reference standard" for Glorantha.

Other art... Not so much.  Sometimes it's an actual /change/ to the way "element X" is envisioned; other times, I think there just wasn't ANY clear vision of "element X" so the editor/whoever just shrugged and said "not quite how I'd have envisioned it... But then again I don't HAVE a preferred vision."

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether a given piece is still "canonical" (or nearly so), or entirely-not.

Greg Stafford was very involved with the art direction for Glorantha from 1975 when it all began through to the early 1990s when Chaosium and Avalon Hill stopped working as much together. That said, most art direction instructions were very brief. The entire Pavis supplement had a two page art brief, for example. Most pictures were described by a short two or three sentence paragraph. None of us has taken the time to go back through all the books Chaosium has published to rate how "canonical" a picture may or may not be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Complete Dungeon Master boxed set 1 (CDM1), The Halls of the Dwarves Kings, is a Gateway supplement, not a Gloranthan supplement. It originally included a mishmash of stats for most major roleplaying systems, including RuneQuest. For Example:

Cranneg

STR 15         Level 9 cleric
DEX 12         Dwarves Rune Priest
CON 15        Hit Points: 54; 16
SIZ 8             Legs (right/left): 8/6
INT 18          Abdomen: 8/6
WIS 18         Chest: 8/7
CHA 18        Arms (right/left): 8/5
POW 21        Head: 6/6
Move 6         Defence: 20%

Spells are then separately listed for D&D, followed by RuneQuest spells. The characters are certainly easily used with the RuneQuest rules.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, g33k said:

The DTRPG listing specifically mentions the "City State of the Invincible Overlord" so that's the (default) setting.  It's JG's "house" setting for the D&D ruleset.

FWIW, that doesn't rule out a RQ2 set of stats being included.  Because they often rolled that way, Back In The Day...

Well, actually, they didn't.  Judges' Guild products came in three flavours: completely generic, no game-specific information at all; game-specific, information and stats included for a specific game system (for most of their products, that meant original D&D); and "generic game system", their own invention, which provided stats for NPCs etc. that theoretically could be adapted to any game system, but in practice (since it involved levels and classes) meant a D&D derivative.  I'm not aware of any JG product that included stats for more than a single game system.

Of course such products did exist, but other companies published them, not JG.

I have to admit that The Halls of the Dwarven Kings is one I had completely blanked on.  I must have seen it advertised in the pages of White Dwarf, but I don't remember ever seeing it on a local game store shelf, and if I had I probably would have dismissed it as a D&D supplement that I didn't need to own.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Yes, you're correct,  that's definately the one I remember. It is 'The Halls Of The Dwarven Kings'  - Set 1 in The Complete Dungeon Master Series -  by Integrated Games , back in the early 1980s. Was a british product.

Very good maps, quite good depiction of high fantasy Dwarves (not Gloranthan Mostali). Several versions were produced, each with different game stats - D&D, AD&D, RQ2, and possibly WHFRP.

Amusingly, this was later MUCH more nicely published as WHFRP Doomstones series (really quite well done).  In fact, I was so taken with it that I adapted it completely for our RQ3 campaign (WHFRP is pretty easy to do) and my players had a blast, ultimately retrieving all 4 stones and bringing them back through the lines to Whitewall, where they were successfully combined into a potent item that destroyed the Crimson Bat (for a while, anyway) saving the city and breaking the Lunar Army.

Years later, I stumbled upon the Halls of the Dwarven kings and thought "ooh, this is cool!" and was all worked up...until about 10 pages in I started to recognize the names of the NPCs and realized it had ORIGINALLY *been* a RQ adventure.

2 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

Greg Stafford was very involved with the art direction for Glorantha from 1975 when it all began through to the early 1990s when Chaosium and Avalon Hill stopped working as much together. That said, most art direction instructions were very brief. The entire Pavis supplement had a two page art brief, for example. Most pictures were described by a short two or three sentence paragraph. None of us has taken the time to go back through all the books Chaosium has published to rate how "canonical" a picture may or may not be.

I've told my players that history begins at the G2G today; if something historical doesn't contradict the Guide, I'll probably accept it, but basically the Guide's the baseline now.  

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×