Capping Battle Magic like RQ2

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, womble said:

And I'm struggling to find the reference, but I'm fairly sure you can transfer knowledge of Spirit Magic to a Spirit you have bound, so you can forget it... But that might be a [mis]remembered feature of a different ruleset.

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

I would be very interested to know the origin of this rule (i.e. in which ruleset it originates).

This was the purpose of Intellect Spirits in RQ3.

Edited February 6, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

This was the purpose of Intellect Spirits in RQ3.

Yes, they extended the available INT to store spells. I was speaking of the possibility to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit.

[PhilHibbs]

52 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Yes, they extended the available INT to store spells. I was speaking of the possibility to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit.

They don't extend available INT, they have their own INT and you can transfer the knowledge of a spell into it. It's a small distinction, but taking your post literally, it is the latter, not the former.

I just checked, and you can't do that with Magic Spirits or Spell Spirits. Of course there is no such distinction in RQG, and it doesn't seem possible to do this with the rules that we currently have. A summoned and bound spirit might already know spells that you can command it to cast. It doesn't say that you can do this (transfer spells) with an Allied Spirit either, but I'd allow it. It's just a convenient shortcut for teaching the Allied Spirit the spell (you're a Rune Master, it's an Initiate) and then forgetting it yourself.

Edited February 6, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

51 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Yes, they extended the available INT to store spells. I was speaking of the possibility to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit.

 If you meant "the possibility to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit which can then cast it", I don't think that's ever been an option.

[Kloster]

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

They don't extend available INT, they have their own INT and you can transfer the knowledge of a spell into it. It's a small distinction, but taking your post literally, it is the latter, not the former.

That's not the way we had understood it, but we may be wrong.

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I just checked, and you can't do that with Magic Spirits or Spell Spirits. Of course there is no such distinction in RQG, and it doesn't seem possible to do this with the rules that we currently have. A summoned and bound spirit might already know spells that you can command it to cast.

I understand this point the same way you do.

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It doesn't say that you can do this (transfer spells) with an Allied Spirit either, but I'd allow it. It's just a convenient shortcut for teaching the Allied Spirit the spell (you're a Rune Master, it's an Initiate) and then forgetting it yourself.

This, I haven't thought about, but I like it.

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you meant "the possibility to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit which can then cast it", I don't think that's ever been an option.

I didn't meant it, but with the current RQG rules, if you allow to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit in order to be able to cast it without having the spell counting in your CHA, the spirit WILL be able to cast it, because the rules explain you can cast the spell the spirit knows.

[PhilHibbs]

33 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I didn't meant it, but with the current RQG rules, if you allow to transfer the knowledge of a spell to a spirit in order to be able to cast it without having the spell counting in your CHA, the spirit WILL be able to cast it, because the rules explain you can cast the spell the spirit knows.

I don't think that RQG says that a bound spirit can cast, or be commanded to cast, the spells that it has. I suppose you could release it with the command to cast the spell once, or command it, and release it to cast its spell many times and return to the binding. It would have to be physically manifest (with Visibility, for example) to target corporeal entities, though. If you wanted a spirit that would cast its spells on demand, there should be some trade-off like there is with the different types of spirit in RQ3. An all-singing-all-dancing spirit that can provide MPs, provide access to spells, and cast the spells itself might be obtainable but is not the norm.

[Atgxtg]

13 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

I started with RQ2, and my experience over the last 35 years is that everyone just learns the capped value. If the limit is 4, everyone learns 4 - any limits such as INT or ‘just a starting PC’, are circumvented at the earliest opportunity, either through matrices, money, or spirits. Such circumventions add nothing to the experience of the game, so [/quote]

I started with RQ2 as well, but:

1. RQ3 changed that and it's been changed for over 35 years.

2. A bunch of spells in RQ2 had a 6 point cap (Protection. Heal) yet you failed to mention that.

3. We'rent you the guy who was surprised that spells weren't capped in RQG.

 

13 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

:why not make the spells fixed in cost and effect? Make them all 4 point spells at the equivalent effect ; either allow Heal to reattach a limb or divide it into 2 spells (one stops bleeding, one reattached limbs). No one who knows 

I counter with why make them fixed in cost and effect? 

[styopa]

6 hours ago, womble said:

I'd say Bladesharp 10 is quite a bit better than Bladesharp 5

And neither of them is better than Sever Spirit.  (shrug)  This is one reason the players in my campaign just BITTERLY hate trolls.  Someone in a troll band always has that thing.

Note that one thing RQ(any) players seem slow to recognize is how easy it is to STRIP targets of magics.  In RQ3 and RQG both (not sure about RQ2) there's no resistance roll - dispel magic just strips the target at 1 point per point, dismiss is 2 per point, and is far more usable now with rune points.   (Neutralize is still a resist.)

Of course a 10 point spell is intrinsically harder to strip than a 5, obviously.  Given lack of access to bigger spells and such, it's much more than 2x better in that respect.

There are ample things a GM can put in a campaign that complicate this and/or make it more interesting too - nibbly 'spirit-sucking gnats' that in swarms chew away standing spells or ultimately mp.  (The look of sheer terror on players' faces when the lovely, ethereal cloud of glowing motes like they're in a Miyazaki film ...turn out to start draining MP, is priceless.)  A relatively low-power but nicely scaling magic item would be a ring or something that would let their dispel/dismiss magic spells partially strip down target spells, instead of having to wholly overcome them.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that RQG says that a bound spirit can cast, or be commanded to cast, the spells that it has. I suppose you could release it with the command to cast the spell once, or command it, and release it to cast its spell many times and return to the binding. It would have to be physically manifest (with Visibility, for example) to target corporeal entities, though.

RQG p 249: Those in physical contact with a binding enchantment can mentally communicate with an entity bound inside (if there are no conditions to the contrary) and can command the entity to use its abilities. ... Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.).

I understand that if a spirit knows a spell and is bound in an enchantment and you are in physical contact with the enchantment, you can command the entity to cast the spell. In addition, (RQG p366): Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells.

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you wanted a spirit that would cast its spells on demand, there should be some trade-off like there is with the different types of spirit in RQ3. An all-singing-all-dancing spirit that can provide MPs, provide access to spells, and cast the spells itself might be obtainable but is not the norm.

I would very much prefer to have this situation and would be very happy if I'm wrong. On that point, I prefer the different RQIII types of spirits.

[g33k]

I'm not sure I want the added complication of a cap -- let alone a varying cap! -- but part of me REALLY like the Cult-Level vs CHA/x mechanic...

• Lay members can learn Spirit Magic spells up to a level of CHA/4
• Initiates can learn up to a level of CHA/3
• Rune Levels can learn up to CHA/2

Going higher than CHA/2 needs a Heroquest or the like:  you are exceeding normal/mortal bounds, and need a Special Ability only available from HQ'ing.

[Tywyll]

Personally I like the one from RQ4 (unreleased edition):

"In general, lay members may not learn more than a 2 point cult magic spell, initiates may not learn more than a 4 point cult magic spell, and acolytes, priests and Rune
Lords may not learn more than a 6 point cult magic spell (a 2/4/6 spell limit). If the cult spell is one that is not particularly important to the deity, lay members may not
learn more than 1 point, initiates may not learn more than 2 points, and acolytes, priests and Rune Lords may not learn more than 4 points (a 1/2/4 spell limit). If the cult spell is a particular specialty of the deity, lay members may not learn more than 4 points, initiates may not learn more than 6 points, and acolytes, priests and Rune Lords may not learn more than 8 points (a 4/6/8 spell limit)."

So a Humakt Rune Lord might know Bladesharp 8, but a Chalana Arroy Priest could only know it to 4 for example.

[Joerg]

54 minutes ago, styopa said:

Note that one thing RQ(any) players seem slow to recognize is how easy it is to STRIP targets of magics.  In RQ3 and RQG both (not sure about RQ2) there's no resistance roll - dispel magic just strips the target at 1 point per point, dismiss is 2 per point, and is far more usable now with rune points.   (Neutralize is still a resist.)

 

 

That's where Countermagic steps in, protecting all the weaker spells cast before. And each dispel of a Countermagic can of course be countered by having a supporter cast another one. Unless you use coordinated teams of spell strippers, a single magic supporter can frustrate your efforts at spell stripping.

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's where Countermagic steps in, protecting all the weaker spells cast before. And each dispel of a Countermagic can of course be countered by having a supporter cast another one. Unless you use coordinated teams of spell strippers, a single magic supporter can frustrate your efforts at spell stripping.

Yup, but that also means more Magic Points and more CHA to "know" it,  or more bound spirits, crystals or matrices. 

Now I haven't run or played RQG, but I have done so with RQ2 and RQ3 and several related RPGs, and based on that, by the time the PCs can start to assemble the resources required to make Bladesharp 10 plus kickers practical,  capping the spells just means that they allocate those resources towards something else.

 

Plus with the drain on MPs for such a powerful setup (plus Countermagic) most of the PCs didn't want to cast a spell that high, because of the relatively short duration, and because it would take a long time to replenish the magic points, often leaving them vulnerable. The "ten" was held in reserve for dire situations. 

[Thyrwyn]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I started with RQ2 as well, but:

1. RQ3 changed that and it's been changed for over 35 years.

2. A bunch of spells in RQ2 had a 6 point cap (Protection. Heal) yet you failed to mention that.

3. We'rent you the guy who was surprised that spells weren't capped in RQG.

 

I counter with why make them fixed in cost and effect? 

1. Yep - so the OP stated, which matches my experience and (conveniently) reality. But the OP was asking for opinions about restoring the cap, so I was sharing my experiences with the cap: ie, everyone just learned the spells at the capped value, so the point of being variable was rarely significant. Once acquired at the cap, it was never cast at less then the cap (exception: Heal); the only reason to learn cast less than the cap was usually “new character syndrome”, and was corrected as soon as resources allowed and was never relevant again; the mechanical process of progressing to the capped value was, in general, just book keeping and not interesting from a story or character perspective.

2. I did mention mention that Heal broke the cap rule

3. Most definitely not. “No hard limits on variable spells” was one of my favorite changes form 2nd to 3rd. 

I was making the suggestion to the OP, that if you dislike having no cap, it would be more efficient to just remove “variable” as a battle magic spell type, and make all of the variable spells fixed. That was my concluding suggestion to the OP, based on my reasoning as outlined in my post, and repeated in #1, above.

I prefer variable spells as they are, but if I were to consider a limit, I would just make them fixed point spells. That would make them easier to use and describe, and would speed up play without Changing the play experience significantly. “What does Bladesharp do? - It adds +20% to hit and +4 damage” done.

I will try to be more clear

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Thyrwyn

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

RQG p 249: Those in physical contact with a binding enchantment can mentally communicate with an entity bound inside (if there are no conditions to the contrary) and can command the entity to use its abilities. ... Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.).

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how easy it is to get a bound spirit that casts Healing on you on demand, as well as being able to draw on its MPs and cast its spells yourself.

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, Thyrwyn said:

2. I did mention mention that Heal broke the cap rule

But it didn't. There was no universal 4 point cap. In RQ2 the cap was per spell. 

 

[PhilHibbs]

You-said-he-said-but-nobody-cares. Picking away at posts in detail is not a great idea. I came close to that trap with Kloster at the top of this page, I hope I didn't come across as overly nitpicky and if so I apologise.

[Tywyll]

19 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how easy it is to get a bound spirit that casts Healing on you on demand, as well as being able to draw on its MPs and cast its spells yourself.

Isn't that how it worked in RQ3? I thought that was how it always worked with spirits who had spells that were bound. 

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Isn't that how it worked in RQ3? I thought that was how it always worked with spirits who had spells that were bound. 

In RQ3, there were different spirits each with an individual capability.

• Intellect Spirits: You can store spells in them and cast the spell yourself.
• POW Spirits: You can use their MPs to power your spells.
• Spell Spirits: They can cast their one spell for you.
• Magic Spirits: Can know and cast several spells for you, some might even know divine or sorcery.

RQG Bound Spirits seem to have the capabilities of all of these in one.

Edited February 6, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Tywyll]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In RQ3, there were different spirits each with an individual capability.

• Intellect Spirits: You can store spells in them and cast the spell yourself.
• POW Spirits: You can use their MPs to power your spells.
• Spell Spirits: They can cast their one spell for you.
• Magic Spirits: Can know and cast several spells for you, some might even know divine or sorcery.

RQG Bound Spirits seem to have the capabilities of all of these in one.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Did 3rd edition have the limit of spirits based on your Charisma?

To be fair though, this way does seem to be how they worked in RQ2 (there was really only one kind of spirit and you used their pow and int for your own). 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Tywyll

[SDLeary]

13 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Ah, I see what you mean now. Did 3rd edition have the limit of spirits based on your Charisma?

No, as RQ3 had no Charisma, only Appearance . POW contained many aspects that have now migrated back to Charisma.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

No, as RQ3 had no Charisma, only Appearance . POW contained many aspects that have now migrated back to Charisma.

SDLeary

And even then the real limit was in the availability of suitable devices to bind spirits into. In RQ2 and RQG storage crystals are fairly common. In RQ3 magicians mostly have to create their own binding objects, make the enchantment rolls, and sacrifice POW to do so. 

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how easy it is to get a bound spirit that casts Healing on you on demand, as well as being able to draw on its MPs and cast its spells yourself.

On this, I agree with you. As I already told, I much prefer the various RQIII type of spirits.

 

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I came close to that trap with Kloster at the top of this page, I hope I didn't come across as overly nitpicky and if so I apologise.

You didn't, and so don't need to apologize.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Ah, I see what you mean now. Did 3rd edition have the limit of spirits based on your Charisma?

No, there was no limit on the number of spirits. But as Atgxtg explained, much POW had to be used to create the binding enchantment (and you needed a different spell to create each binding, a different spell to summon them and a different spell to control nd force them into the binding).

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

In RQ3, there were different spirits each with an individual capability.

• Intellect Spirits: You can store spells in them and cast the spell yourself.
• POW Spirits: You can use their MPs to power your spells.
• Spell Spirits: They can cast their one spell for you.
• Magic Spirits: Can know and cast several spells for you, some might even know divine or sorcery.

RQG Bound Spirits seem to have the capabilities of all of these in one. 

Yes, this is that. In addition, you could also request a spell spirit to teach you his spell (this is how spirit magic spells were learned in RQIII).