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Bohemond

Ernalda to Vinga

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Perhaps this should be in the Heroquest section, since it's partly a question about HQ mechanics. But here goes. 

One element of the cult of Vinga that used to be emphasized what that some women joined the cult temporarily to avenge violence (such as the killing of their husband), and that dying the hair red was part of the process. What is the current thinking on how that works? Does the ritual hair dying allow a women to replace her Earth rune (her soul) with an Air rune? Does she keep her other runes, or can those be swapped for Orlanth/Vinga runes too? It seems to me that this would produce some odd dynamics, such as a women with Air, Harmony, and Life. 

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They could perhaps use the Earth rune to channel Ernalda's daughter Air rune for a limited period of time.

Another option would be for Ernaldans to turn into Babeester Gori for a limited amount of time in order to take revenge on someone.

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1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

They could perhaps use the Earth rune to channel Ernalda's daughter Air rune for a limited period of time.

Another option would be for Ernaldans to turn into Babeester Gori for a limited amount of time in order to take revenge on someone.

A heartfelt nay to temporary membership of Babeester or some other such Dark Earth avenger - choosing the Dark Side of Earth is for eternity. Choosing to walk in hubby's steps with hair dyed red is a far cry from the commitment to the Dark Earth. It is female fertility suspended, not  female fertility sacrificed.

 

To address the original question: to go Vingan is a change of gender, a change of outllook. It makes a woman unstable and emotional, losing her cool. While this is a weakness in civilized company, it is an adequate response to unciviized conditions that may have arisen because the males didn't do their part of society's duty properly.

I am inclined to make this a temporary (one assumes, at least at the beginning) change of personality.

Ruleswise, I have no recommendation on how to derive the temporary Storm rune ability from the now unaccessible Earth rune ability. All access to Earth rune magic is suspended for the time following Vinga. Some Storm magic will come from the act of the gender change, but whether at the same level of power is a different question. A passion might be turned into that temporary rune ability.

Edited by Joerg

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"...every childless widow in Sartar died her hair red."

I think that they don't drop Earth for Storm, they drop Life for Death. Note how much Death there is going on in the Storm Tribe Vinga write-up.

I like Vinga with Air, Movement, and Death. Her followers can of course perform Making the Storm Tribe  as Orlanth if they feel called to Mastery.

(This is one of the reasons I prefer Vinga as distinct from Orlanth rather than "just" Orlanth incarnate.)

Edited by JonL
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On 2/5/2019 at 7:18 PM, JonL said:

 

"...every childless widow in Sartar died her hair red."

I think that they don't drop Earth for Storm, they drop Life for Death. Note how much Death there is going on in the Storm Tribe Vinga write-up.

I like Vinga with Air, Movement, and Death. Her followers can of course perform Making the Storm Tribe  as Orlanth if they feel called to Mastery.

(This is one of the reasons I prefer Vinga as distinct from Orlanth rather than "just" Orlanth incarnate.)

I have trouble seeing Vinga as having Death. The Heortling gods with Death are pretty grim (Humakt and Babeester Gor) and entirely severed from normal human relationships. Vinga doesn't seem like that to me--she's surrounded by kin--father, mother, and (Thunder) brothers. She's not grim, at least not any more so than Orlanth is. And a woman changing Life for Death would look much more like Babeester Gor than Vinga--Earth and Death being Bab's runes (albeit the dark side of Earth). Since Vinga is the way that women worship Orlanth, it makes sense to me to temporarily swap Earth for Air.  

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Back in the 'good old days' of Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, Vinga had a Protection Rune which appeared as a modified Earth rune.  Surely there is some potential in using Ernaldan runic powers in just such a fashion?

When 'Going Vingan' the cultist accesses different interpretations of the same feats, and if/when she returns to her previous role the interpretations return likewise.

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On 2/5/2019 at 10:25 PM, Bohemond said:

Perhaps this should be in the Heroquest section, since it's partly a question about HQ mechanics. But here goes. 

One element of the cult of Vinga that used to be emphasized what that some women joined the cult temporarily to avenge violence (such as the killing of their husband), and that dying the hair red was part of the process. What is the current thinking on how that works? Does the ritual hair dying allow a women to replace her Earth rune (her soul) with an Air rune? Does she keep her other runes, or can those be swapped for Orlanth/Vinga runes too? It seems to me that this would produce some odd dynamics, such as a women with Air, Harmony, and Life. 

I just say that an Ernaldan who does this can replace Earth with Air/Storm and Life/Fertility with Death, if she wants. If she then returns to Ernalda, I just let the runes revert back, if that's what she wants.

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On 2/6/2019 at 12:46 AM, Joerg said:

To address the original question: to go Vingan is a change of gender

Not necessarily, viz. some overly lengthy and excessively detailed threads on the Glorantha Digest of yore ...

There are certainly some Vinga subcults that go further than others in that direction, but the core cult is not so extreme -- I'd view it mostly as a cult allowing women to do "men's work" (Storm, Warfare), much like Barntar lets men do some "women's work" (Earth, Farming)  ; I'd also see some Vinga subcults going not so far as others in that direction, and perhaps these are what those "temporary Vingans" might belong to.

OTOH I'd certainly see that there must be at least one Vinga subcult with a far greater link with the Death Rune than others.

Or to put it another way, I think everyone's point of view here is correct, at least up to a point, as all of the things suggested can be found in different Vinga cultists, who might individually be rather unlike each other in significant and important ways.

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5 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

Not necessarily, viz. some overly lengthy and excessively detailed threads on the Glorantha Digest of yore ...

Agreed to some extent, but:

5 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

There are certainly some Vinga subcults that go further than others in that direction, but the core cult is not so extreme -- I'd view it mostly as a cult allowing women to do "men's work" (Storm, Warfare),

It's more than just "work", it is being. Even though it is a temporary change we are talking about, these red-dyed women stop mothering etc. for the time of their Vinga-hood. If there is a wapentake, they had better bring warriors' gear, or they have no vote. Etc.

5 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

much like Barntar lets men do some "women's work" (Earth, Farming) ;

Huh? Barntar is the Earth Husband without too much of that stormy nonsense - still an able defender and dragonslayer, but the one returning home as soon as that drought problem is resolved.

His role is about as un-female as you can get in the vicinity of the Earth rune.

5 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

I'd also see some Vinga subcults going not so far as others in that direction, and perhaps these are what those "temporary Vingans" might belong to.

I still don't see a red-haired woman having a baby slung before her chest while wielding shield and spear. She will have given childcare over to her in-law females (if patrilocally married) or to her mother and sisters (if matrilocally married).

5 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

OTOH I'd certainly see that there must be at least one Vinga subcult with a far greater link with the Death Rune than others.

Or to put it another way, I think everyone's point of view here is correct, at least up to a point, as all of the things suggested can be found in different Vinga cultists, who might individually be rather unlike each other in significant and important ways.

Sure. In case of doubt, the player can claim the "One Unique Thing" every time.

(Although I'd hate to GM the party with each of the player characters being the one and only D&D Paladin/D&D Magic User etc. in Glorantha...)

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I assume he meant Nandan instead of Barntar.


The issue here is whether the Orlanthi consider "doing [gendered] work" as separate from "being [gender]". That's definitely not a given.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I assume he meant Nandan instead of Barntar.


The issue here is whether the Orlanthi consider "doing [gendered] work" as separate from "being [gender]". That's definitely not a given.

Nandan is the god of women's work for Nandans (women with a male appearance). This includes cooking, hearth-keeping, childcare, woman-only earth rituals, weaving, and so forth. (Weirdly, brewing seems to be a male activity, though brew-wifes are what I think of).

This is entirely separate from homosexuality, note. A Nandan can marry a man, or be the consort of a woman. The important distinction is that a Nandan will have an Earth rune, not an Air rune, as their primary elemental rune. Vingans have an Air rune if they are 'confirmed Vingans' is always how I saw it.

It's my contention that Geo was a Nandan, and that the 'Bouncer' is the spirit of a Nandan Babeester Gor hero.

However... you can certainly do gendered work that doesn't belong to your apparent gender. But if you are drawn to it and enjoy it because of your runes and your disposition - you will be categorised as Nandan, Vingan, or Heler (the latter when everyone is confused about your mix of interests).

Edited by jeffjerwin

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11 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

However... you can certainly do gendered work that doesn't belong to your apparent gender. But if you are drawn to it and enjoy it because of your runes and your disposition - you will be categorised as Nandan, Vingan, or Heler (the latter when everyone is confused about your mix of interests).

That's sort of my point - performing gendered work is clearly very important to the idea of gender in Orlanthi society. Is it an absolute rule? No, but it's an important part of the equation.

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12 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I assume he meant Nandan instead of Barntar.

No, I meant Barntar.

Growing plants out of the ground is, mythically, "women's work", or if you prefer it's magic of an Ernaldan/Esrolan/Earth origin.

But if you prefer, the more masculine Barntar and the more feminine Nandan correspond on the female side to Vinga alone, whom I'd see as encompassing as much the more feminine side of women warriors as the more masculine ; but yes, participating in the Vingan rites probably does suspend women's fertility. It could be what they sacrifice in their MP and POW.

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8 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

No, I meant Barntar.

Growing plants out of the ground is, mythically, "women's work", or if you prefer it's magic of an Ernaldan/Esrolan/Earth origin.

But if you prefer, the more masculine Barntar and the more feminine Nandan correspond on the female side to Vinga alone, whom I'd see as encompassing as much the more feminine side of women warriors as the more masculine ; but yes, participating in the Vingan rites probably does suspend women's fertility. It could be what they sacrifice in their MP and POW.

I've always preferred the idea that Barntar is Earth tribe rather than Storm tribe, sort of the opposite number to Vinga--a way that men worship Ernalda. But that's an issue for a different topic, I suppose.

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14 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

Growing plants out of the ground is, mythically, "women's work", or if you prefer it's magic of an Ernaldan/Esrolan/Earth origin.

I think we're over-stating the Air-Earth dichotomy in Orlanthi society and mindset. While it might work on a Runic and gamey sense, I doubt it strongly applies in your average cottar's daily life. It's true that the Earth is mostly feminine to the Orlanthi, but as the VAST majority of Orlanthi male spend the MAJORITY of their lives working the earth, it comes off as a bit weird to have working the earth be conceptually feminine, because it means that the main livelihood of most Orlanthi is "women's work". It would be as if receiving wages was a feminine thing in the capitalist world.

I rather hold that the marriage of Ernalda and Orlanth opens up a more nuanced and mixed idea of what it means to be, well, human, both male and female. Barntar, close to the Earth, but not directly of it, applies a "tempered" Storm-masculinity to it, at least partially by taming the Wild Bull, and inventing the Barntar Plow (This is mythically important, imho, as previous Earth-culture agriculture was probably non-plow based, being horticultural in nature). Granted, I'm the sort of person who don't really care what rune a god has or hasn't, so I understand if someone else needs more clarity for the purposes of gaming.

 

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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I also dont think they'd characterize Barntar-ish interactions with the land to be feminine, what with all the plowing, planting seeds, and so on.

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On 2/9/2019 at 5:32 AM, Joerg said:

 (Although I'd hate to GM the party with each of the player characters being the one and only D&D Paladin/D&D Magic User etc. in Glorantha...)

My inner Eurmali REALLY wants to stand a beer to each player who manages to get into one of Jeorg's games, and pulls this stunt on him.  Or even as all the OTHER players in a 'Con game where he's one of the players.

My inner Humakti isn't willing to be foresworn, 'cos I don't realistically see my California gaming overlapping much with his, alas...

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Genert was an earth god and was definitely male.

Not all Earth things are female. Barntar is Orlanth the Farmer, in effect, god of specialist farmers. In many ways, he shows mastery over the earth, ploughing and planting are similar to impregnating the earth, growing is drawing things out of the earth and harvesting is gaining treasures from the earth, all things that Orlanth has done in the past.

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Genert was an earth god and was definitely male.

Not all Earth things are female. Barntar is Orlanth the Farmer, in effect, god of specialist farmers. In many ways, he shows mastery over the earth, ploughing and planting are similar to impregnating the earth, growing is drawing things out of the earth and harvesting is gaining treasures from the earth, all things that Orlanth has done in the past.

This is why Barntar is still an Air god and not an Earth god. He's a plowing god, cutting the earth and exposing it to the air through movement, not a fertility god.

The reason Earth is primarily associated with goddesses these days is because Genert went and got himself killed.

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Well, at least in Genertela... Pamaltela still has its Earth King. Genert has parts of him surviving as he was a primeval giant and a continent, of course, like Gonn Orta and Jernotius, but in the latter case Jernotius/a is in an indeterminate gender and may have lost his/her fertility. Gonn Orta famously is finally able to have a daughter in 1621 or thereabouts.

The Earth queens however had non Earth king consorts before Genert's death. Since there's a lot of incest in the early part of the Earth deity lineage (Genert fertilizes multiple generations prior to Asrelia), I wonder if Genert was betrayed or 'helped into death' by his daughter's lovers...

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31 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Well, at least in Genertela... Pamaltela still has its Earth King. Genert has parts of him surviving as he was a primeval giant and a continent, of course, like Gonn Orta and Jernotius, but in the latter case Jernotius/a is in an indeterminate gender and may have lost his/her fertility. Gonn Orta famously is finally able to have a daughter in 1621 or thereabouts.

The Earth queens however had non Earth king consorts before Genert's death. Since there's a lot of incest in the early part of the Earth deity lineage (Genert fertilizes multiple generations prior to Asrelia), I wonder if Genert was betrayed or 'helped into death' by his daughter's lovers...

Well, there is some issue on whether Pamalt truly is the equivalent of Genert, or whether that is a God Learner interpretation made in the name of apparent symmetry and systematization. The Doraddi seem to hold other aspects than just that of the earth as his most important qualities (leadership, for one). Of course, that might've been true for Genert back in the day, too: he sure did attract a lot of followers.

 

Genert's death, and a lack of a masculine Earth Husband does seem to explain, to some extent, why Ernalda/the Earth Goddess seems to be passed around like a prize trophy, though.

Makes you wonder, if things had been different, if we'd seen an Earth King with Storm, Rain and Sun Wives. Who knows.

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