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<RQ:G> Casting Shield on body, equipment, or both?

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17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Quote: "The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic." 

I'd take that to imply an essential compatibility with those spells. In other words, you can cast them in any order and they will stack. YGMV.

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3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The rules say that Shield can be cast on top of Countermagic.

No, they don't. They say:

Quote

The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic.

There is no indication that the shield doesn't get thwarted by a powerful Countermagic (eg. a Shield 2 thwarted by a CM 5 or higher).

The last paragraph in the Shield rules reads a bit problematic, but might be a clunky wording to support my stance that the shield (which doesn't vanish when overcome by other magic) must be cast first to get the cumulative effect:

Quote

If cast on a target already protected by Countermagic, the Countermagic would be Dispelled before the Shield, if possible. 

I read this as "If the Shield is cast on a target already protected by CM; the CM would disappear before the Shield takes over, provided that the Shield is strong enough to overcome the CM."

Do you have a better interpretation of this?

 

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Duplicate... this is a bug in the forum software that doesn't clear the editor when the post appear on a later page.

 

 

Edited by Joerg
Duplicate post due to page change.

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3 hours ago, Sumath said:

I'd take that to imply an essential compatibility with those spells. In other words, you can cast them in any order and they will stack. YGMV.

Snce neither Spirit Screen nor Protection evaporate when another spell is incoming, the sequence of casting these spirit spells and Shield is irrelevant. Countermagic is different. If it recognizes that the new magic is a Shield, then it doesn't act up?

Let me ask you a slight variation.

Argrath has a Countermagic 3 on, but his supporter Elusu didn't recognize this, and casts a Countermagic 4 on him. What happens?

IMO the CM4 fails, but evaporates the CM3, too.

Now why again should a Shield 2 behave different from the CM4?

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9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Now why again should a Shield 2 behave different from the CM4?

a) Because it's divine magic, and b) because it's been designed to work that way. I think the gods are more than capable of creating magic that can work with Countermagic in that way. One point of Shield is equivalent to two points of Countermagic and Protection. It is not the same as.

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15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't understand. What do you mean by "a high enough level", and what other mechanics?

I think he means that you need, for example Countermagic 6 to stack onto Shield 2, as anything less is blown down by the Shield, giving you effectively Countermagic 6 in total.

From past discussions, in RQ2 it never worked that way. protection and Countermagic just stacked on top, so Shield 3 Protection 4 give you 6+4=10 points of Protection and 6 points of Countermagic.

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If cast on a target already protected by Countermagic, the Countermagic would be Dispelled before the Shield, if possible. 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I read this as "If the Shield is cast on a target already protected by CM; the CM would disappear before the Shield takes over, provided that the Shield is strong enough to overcome the CM."

Do you have a better interpretation of this?

Yes. "Dispelled" with a capital D refers to Dispel Magic, and possibly other magic removal effects (Dismiss, Neutralize). It means that once both spells are up, the Countermagic will go down before the Shield does.

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23 hours ago, soltakss said:

I think he means that you need, for example Countermagic 6 to stack onto Shield 2, as anything less is blown down by the Shield, giving you effectively Countermagic 6 in total.

From past discussions, in RQ2 it never worked that way. protection and Countermagic just stacked on top, so Shield 3 Protection 4 give you 6+4=10 points of Protection and 6 points of Countermagic.

I'd agree that when I played RQ2, we just let Shield stack with whichever of the other two got cast and didn't give any consideration to the countermagic effects working on each other. However, by the same token, we didn't require Heals to be boosted to get past Shield or Countermagic, either, and that's not how it's meant to be in RQG, so our interpretation of RQ2 is very much thrown into question for the purposes of the current version of the rules.

 

On 2/9/2019 at 1:56 PM, Joerg said:

Snce neither Spirit Screen nor Protection evaporate when another spell is incoming, the sequence of casting these spirit spells and Shield is irrelevant. Countermagic is different. If it recognizes that the new magic is a Shield, then it doesn't act up?

Not quite. If the Shield is cast first, and the Spirit Screen or Protection are not sufficient to beat the Countermagic element of the Shield, they'll fizzle. Since neither Spirit Screen nor Protection has any Countermagic effect, you can cast as small a Shield as you like on top of them; it's the other way around when I'd argue you have to take care.

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22 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes. "Dispelled" with a capital D refers to Dispel Magic, and possibly other magic removal effects (Dismiss, Neutralize). It means that once both spells are up, the Countermagic will go down before the Shield does.

I'd agree with that interpretation.

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On 2/9/2019 at 3:09 PM, Sumath said:

a) Because it's divine magic,

Countermagic (or Countermagic stacked with Shield) will still stop healing attempts regardless of the origin, or spells like "Sever Spirit".

 

On 2/9/2019 at 3:09 PM, Sumath said:

and b) because it's been designed to work that way.

I'll believe that when the designers say so. Phil put the question up for Jason.

 

On 2/9/2019 at 3:09 PM, Sumath said:

I think the gods are more than capable of creating magic that can work with Countermagic in that way. One point of Shield is equivalent to two points of Countermagic and Protection. It is not the same as.

Gods being limited in their abilities is a defining element in the Gloranthan setting. I would accept this from a god of magic. Shield comes from more martial deities.

And while we're at it, how do Berserk and Countermagic interact with one another? The CM after the berserk obviously has to come from an ally or an opponent, as the berserking character cannot cast protective magic any more.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'll believe that when the designers say so.

My interpretation was that they have done so - from memory, I don't think the wording on Shield has changed significantly since RQ2. "The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic." There is no directive upon them being accumulated in a particular order, and I don't recall any RQ GM or players I knew ever worrying about that.

Besides, how can they be cumulative if you are putting one opposed Countermagic effect on top of another? Surely, if they work against each other, one spell will always either be rebuffed or knock out the other, depending on their respective strengths? 

I'm also wondering how your interpretation - that those spells need to be cast in a particular way and in a particular order - makes the game more fun or more interesting. Personally, I just can't see it - it looks needlessly finicky, and not something I would bother with at my table. But that's me, and as I said previously, YGMV.

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1 hour ago, Sumath said:

My interpretation was that they have done so - from memory, I don't think the wording on Shield has changed significantly since RQ2. "The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic." There is no directive upon them being accumulated in a particular order, and I don't recall any RQ GM or players I knew ever worrying about that.

It doesn't affect the casting of the Shield spell other than it must be stronger than the CM to take effect at all.

In your version, you could cast a one point shield on top of a CM 3 or stronger without any boosting, but not a one point Restore Health. Explain.

Quote

Besides, how can they be cumulative if you are putting one opposed Countermagic effect on top of another? Surely, if they work against each other, one spell will always either be rebuffed or knock out the other, depending on their respective strengths? 

SImple. The Divine effect doesn't get dispelled when a stronger Countermagic is cast, whereas the fragile Countermagic either blocks weaker magic or gets dissolved by equally strong magic (which gets blocked) or stronger magic (which takes effect). Always has been that way. This means that the dissolution-proof divine spell needs to be the basis, and that the CM needs to be stronger (including boosting) than the basis to take effect at all, and it has to be cast second.

 

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I'm also wondering how your interpretation - that those spells need to be cast in a particular way and in a particular order - makes the game more fun or more interesting.

It makes it logical, which for me means I don't get to deal with rules lawyers claiming similar exceptions for whichever spell they feel to sneak by a CM-protection to boost or heal a character. CM is a fickle spell.

Most players I know go for Protection for themselves anyway, rarely spirit screen, and reserve CM shenanigans for enemies.

 

Quote

Personally, I just can't see it - it looks needlessly finicky, and not something I would bother with at my table. But that's me, and as I said previously, YGMV.

Probably my player experience varies.

For the Coutermagic not to perish on the successful casting of a stronger Shield and for it not blocking a Shield cast on it, I want that clarification in the description of Shield and any other Divine spell that offers a CM effect, like Berserk. (There may be more.) Otherwise, rules as written rule.

If you think about finicky, imagine being the victim of a Neutralize Spirit Magic spell cast at you, and trying to get Countermagic up, and vice versa.

Edited by Joerg

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17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This means that the dissolution-proof divine spell needs to be the basis, and that the CM needs to be stronger (including boosting) than the basis to take effect at all, and it has to be cast second.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, because I don't see any support for that inference. The Shield spell description states its exceptional cumulative status vis-à-vis Countermagic and Protection, and for that reason (and reasons of logistical economy and MGF) I won't be asking my players to cast CM and Shield in any particular order. Equally, the same will be true for their NPC opponents.

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It makes it logical, which for me means I don't get to deal with rules lawyers claiming similar exceptions for whichever spell they feel to sneak by a CM-protection to boost or heal a character. CM is a fickle spell.

That seems like a bit of a straw man, as in order to do that they'd need to find another spell that specifically stated its effects were cumulative with Countermagic and Protection. 

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3 minutes ago, Sumath said:

That seems like a bit of a straw man, as in order to do that they'd need to find another spell that specifically stated its effects were cumulative with Countermagic and Protection. 

Not a straw man at all in connection with Berserk. Once you're under the influence, you have no free will left to cast protective spells on yourself or anyone else. If you can stack your Berserk with a hefty CM, that's one worry less to ignore while under the influence.

Edited by Joerg

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

In your version, you could cast a one point shield on top of a CM 3 or stronger without any boosting, but not a one point Restore Health. Explain.

Because Shield is cumulative with Countermagic. It's a special case.

If you want a way to imagine it, think of it this way. When you cast a Countermagic or Shield spell on someone, it forms a spell barrier around them. Spells going through the barrier have to overcome its strength level. If they have Countermagic or Shield on them already, then the spells are so similar that they mesh with each other, one layers on top of the other. There may be a common mythical origin to the two spells, one is just a more powerful version of the other, the big brother, particularly if they are learned from the same cult.

Maybe Countermagic from one cult and Shield from another might not stack, Pamaltelan Countermagic and Genertelan Shield might be incompatible, because they have different mythical origins. That's a level of detail that the basic rules don't go into, and stacking them is so rare that it's not worth mentioning.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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21 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Because Shield is cumulative with Countermagic. It's a special case.

I read that as Shield being a special exception to the "Countermagic and Protection are incompatible" rule.

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17 minutes ago, womble said:

I read that as Shield being a special exception to the "Countermagic and Protection are incompatible" rule.

The wording is "The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic."

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29 minutes ago, womble said:

I read that as Shield being a special exception to the "Countermagic and Protection are incompatible" rule.

If it meant that, and you could not actually have Shield up at the same time as a separate Countermagic or Protection, then Warding should say the same. Also, the only mention of Protection in the Shield writeup is to say that it is cumulative with it. It describes the spell resistance as "points of Countermagic", but the damage resistance is described as "2 points of magical armor", so mentioning Protection as being cumulative would be redundant since Countermagic is not incompatible with "points of magical armor" in general, only with the Protection spell.

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Let me ask you how you handle Countermagic and Berserk. Do they stack? If they don't, can CM3 take effect to spells from non-chaotic sources while the doubled CM2 effect works on spells from chaotic sources? Can they co-exist at all?

Next Suppress Lodril, which works selectively against fire worshippers. How (if at all) does this combine with CM?

If you wear a CM4 inside a Warding 4, what spells are you protected from? 5 point spirit spells won't be caught by the warding, but will activate the last use of your CM and evaporate along with it, if they don't stack on one another. If they do stack, you're pretty safe from most sane magics.

 

23 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Because Shield is cumulative with Countermagic. It's a special case.

That doesn't stop Countermagic from doing its job (in case of stronger spells, evaporating trying to do so) before the Shield (or Berserk) can even take effect.

Other spells (like Suppress Lodril) have a targeting function, but the spirit spell CM does not.

Part of the problem is the different behavior between the CM-like effects that Rune Spells have (less fickle, but one point above the spell already gets through, leaving the lower barrier intact) and the spirit spell with its hysterics. I'll have to check whether RQ3 had the same double standard as RQ2 and RQG which have roughly identical wording.

And it is inconsequent, too (quoting the RQG rules example) :

Quote

2 points of Countermagic would be needed to protect against a 1-point Dismiss Magic spell.

Erm, no? Because a 2 point spell is within the blockade range of a Countermagic 1 (which is a one use spell by design - only a CM 3 or stronger has a chance to survive a first encounter with any one point spirit spell. A CM2 will block a 1 point rune spell boosted with 1 MP while evaporating. A Shield 1 won't block that combo, but remain in action.

 

23 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you want a way to imagine it, think of it this way. When you cast a Countermagic or Shield spell on someone, it forms a spell barrier around them. Spells going through the barrier have to overcome its strength level. If they have Countermagic or Shield on them already, then the spells are so similar that they mesh with each other, one layers on top of the other. There may be a common mythical origin to the two spells, one is just a more powerful version of the other, the big brother, particularly if they are learned from the same cult.

So Berserk or Suppress Lodril are compatible with CM, too (though Suppress Lodril only if you aren't a fire worshipper)? And Warding doesn't react to CM being cast across it?

Lots of potential cans of worms I can avoid simply by adhering to the description of the Countermagic spell without making a subsequent casting of Shield an exception.

 

23 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe Countermagic from one cult and Shield from another might not stack, Pamaltelan Countermagic and Genertelan Shield might be incompatible, because they have different mythical origins. That's a level of detail that the basic rules don't go into, and stacking them is so rare that it's not worth mentioning.

That's along the line of the "Suppress Lodril" stuff I mentioned above, and opens ever new containers from the possession of Pandora.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Let me ask you how you handle Countermagic and Berserk. Do they stack? If they don't, can CM3 take effect to spells from non-chaotic sources while the doubled CM2 effect works on spells from chaotic sources? Can they co-exist at all?

There's no reason to think that Berserk stacks with Countermagic.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Next Suppress Lodril, which works selectively against fire worshippers. How (if at all) does this combine with CM?

Probably not at all.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

If you wear a CM4 inside a Warding 4, what spells are you protected from? 5 point spirit spells won't be caught by the warding, but will activate the last use of your CM and evaporate along with it, if they don't stack on one another. If they do stack, you're pretty safe from most sane magics.

That's always been a tricky one, I'm not sure. I would probably apply the two separately like you say - first the Warding, and if it gets through that, the Countermagic.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That doesn't stop Countermagic from doing its job (in case of stronger spells, evaporating trying to do so) before the Shield (or Berserk) can even take effect.

The Countermagic does its job of integrating with the Shield spell. That behaviour isn't documented under Countermagic, but it is under Shield. If you take the rules as a whole, it's clear that the two are compatible without it having to be stated twice.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Other spells (like Suppress Lodril) have a targeting function, but the spirit spell CM does not.

Same as Warding, I'd say.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

And it is inconsequent, too (quoting the RQG rules example) :

Quote

2 points of Countermagic would be needed to protect against a 1-point Dismiss Magic spell.

That's clearly a mistake, I agree.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Lots of potential cans of worms I can avoid simply by adhering to the description of the Countermagic spell without making a subsequent casting of Shield an exception.

You're hallucinating worms, Joerg, have you been at the mezcal again? ;)

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12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There's no reason to think that Berserk stacks with Countermagic.

According to your idea of "countermagic field compatibility", it should. If it doesn't, that disproves that excuse for not using the rules for CM when casting a Shield spell on an existing CM.

12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The Countermagic does its job of integrating with the Shield spell. That behaviour isn't documented under Countermagic, but it is under Shield. If you take the rules as a whole, it's clear that the two are compatible without it having to be stated twice.

The whole issue with divine spells "acting like CM" when they clearly don't (no 1 point interval, won't evaporate unless dispelled) makes me wish they had found a different phrasing back in RQ1 and 2.

And it is clear to me, from the rules of CM, that there is no compatibility check for the spirit spell. There is one for the Shield spell, and even in that case, the CM has to be stronger than the shield to take effect. No stacking of a 1 MP CM with a one point Shield for an effective 4 MP spell protection.

On the whole, these spells are badly described, and have been for ages.

There is no reason but "game balance" for disallowing any combination of CM, Protection and Spirit Screen or Shimmer in in-world magical theory, or is there? Are these aura-altering spells, and a person or item can only have one aura?

If that would be the case, then Shield would be on top of that, on the outside of the aura. (At least that's what the name of the spell suggests.)

But then what about Berserk and Suppress Lodril? Are these aura-altering spells, or are they changing the nature of the person inside the aura?

And warding would be half a Shield but on area effect.

And sorcery wouldn't interfere with the aura, but with the essence of the target? That would narrow down the aura to a Spirit Plane emanation of the creature or object that extends beyond its physical material.

12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You're hallucinating worms, Joerg, have you been at the mezcal again? ;)

In that case, with a proper mezcal, I wouldn't be hallucinating, but for the plural of worm, I would be beyond delirious. Even cross-eyed vision only doubles the number of dead grubs in the booze.

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