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hkokko

Fate of the ship if all Dormal initiates on it die

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So it is still necessary for there to be Dormal initiate who knows the opening ritual in the ship. 

What happens if the last Dormal initiate on ship dies while the ship is on open seas. Effect of closing (=real bad things) immediately or Real Soon Now?  Minutes, hours? Varies...

How many Dormal initiates one would be expect there to be on the ship normally (one, just a couple, 5% of the crew, 10% of the crew). Would vary by culture?

 

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You'd probably have until the ritual wears off, since IIRC it's an enchantment on the ship itself, not something directly caused by the presence of Dormali. I'd also think that most sailors would be Dormali to some degree, though I don't know for certain as I've never studied Gloranthan sailing, so if they all died I think there'd be much more pressing problems than the closing.

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My totally off-the-cuff impressions and wild-assed guesses:

Pilots, navigators, and chaplains are all likely to be Dormal initiates, possibly captains depending on their background. I would expect organized fleets with institutional support  like those of the Quinipolc League to have more. Most (non-Vadeli) sailors are lay members.

Among the Vadeli, I expect more of them know the rites, as they care nothing for Dormal and the sanctity of cult secrets. Opening is just another useful tool to exploit.

I would expect that an Opening lasts for a single crossing of open water.

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

The ritual is completed when the ship sets sail and its effects last until the next landfall.  Or so I believe.

Either that or until you enter littoral waters that were accessible despite the Closing. Put into a port, approach a shoreline, move into an esutary, harbor, inland waters, etc. - the seas Close behind you.

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How do Orthdox, monotheistic Malkioni like the Rokari, and I guess the Hrestoli deal with Dormal's cult? Not to mention the atheist Brithini of Arolanit (to the extent that they have their own sailors at all)?

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8 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

How do Orthdox, monotheistic Malkioni like the Rokari, and I guess the Hrestoli deal with Dormal's cult? Not to mention the atheist Brithini of Arolanit (to the extent that they have their own sailors at all)?

Dormal is simply the author of a very short grimoire with just one spell - Open Seas. The spell itself is barely registering as magical, hence available to commoners.

The Quinpolic League is pretty orthodox by any standard but Theoblanc's. Sailors are a notoriously spiritually polluted bunch, anyway, with all that contact with unhealthy ideas.

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36 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

How do Orthdox, monotheistic Malkioni like the Rokari, and I guess the Hrestoli deal with Dormal's cult? Not to mention the atheist Brithini of Arolanit (to the extent that they have their own sailors at all)?

Dormal isn't a Hrestoli.  A spell that developed by one cult will work for all cults.

As for the Brithini, they tow the ship out to the Isle of Delights where the sailors can then say their magics as per the guide (p417)

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I didn't say that Dormal was a Hrestoli? I was just wondering how a seemingly (poly)theistic cult and ritual has been integrated into monotheistic/atheistic societies and belief systems.

Thanks for the info, though.

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I just thought of something.  The Open Seas ritual became obsolete with the Cradle.  Think about it.  There was no Dormal initiate on the cradle, and no Dormal shrine, and subsequently, rumor has it that ships started sailing without needing the Open Seas Ritual at all (though people still perform it, just to be certain).  So the question becomes, how did the Cradle break the Closing?

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4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I just thought of something.  The Open Seas ritual became obsolete with the Cradle.  Think about it.  There was no Dormal initiate on the cradle, and no Dormal shrine, and subsequently, rumor has it that ships started sailing without needing the Open Seas Ritual at all (though people still perform it, just to be certain).  So the question becomes, how did the Cradle break the Closing?

Giant magic.

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8 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I just thought of something.  The Open Seas ritual became obsolete with the Cradle.  Think about it.  There was no Dormal initiate on the cradle, and no Dormal shrine, and subsequently, rumor has it that ships started sailing without needing the Open Seas Ritual at all (though people still perform it, just to be certain).  So the question becomes, how did the Cradle break the Closing?

It ddn't, and didn't have to - it was swept down the Maelstrom.

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2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It ddn't, and didn't have to - it was swept down the Maelstrom.

Yes it did.  As soon as a ship goes over the horizon and out of sight of land it sinks.  Those are the rules of the Closing.  Most ritually unprotected ships sink well before they ever reach Magasta's maelstrom, but the Cradle doesn't.

Edited by Darius West

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3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Yes it did.  As soon as a ship goes over the horizon and out of sight of land it sinks.  Those are the rules of the Closing.  Most ritually unprotected ships sink well before they ever reach Magasta's maelstrom, but the Cradle doesn't.

"Any ship going out of the sight of land would be lost to unknown forces: including the sea monsters, weather and Triolini." Quote from the wiki. It doesn't mean it sinks necessarily, though that's probably what happens most of the time, the ship just never returns.

Also according to the same source, the closing was broken in 1624 by the reappearance of the Boat Planet, not by the cradle.

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5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Yes it did.  As soon as a ship goes over the horizon and out of sight of land it sinks.  Those are the rules of the Closing.  Most ritually unprotected ships sink well before they ever reach Magasta's maelstrom, but the Cradle doesn't.

Where is this rule of the Closing from? I have heard about wrecks cast onto rocks, and of ships carried down the maelstrom, with a few escapees occupying the island opposite to that with the dwarven city of iron.

Also check The Middle Sea Empire - it features a Last Ship that reaches Seshnela decades after the Closing isolated both the Seshnegi coast and the continent of Jrustela.

Also, check Dormal's Third Voyage (Men of the Sea p.19):

Quote

Dormal’s’ Third Voyage That Never Was

Dormal tried to sail to Handra using the same rites as before. This  time  the  ceremony  failed,  catching  almost  all  of  the captains by surprise, even Dormal. Some ships were dragged underwater by a kraken only a few miles off shore. Others became lost amid the Wide Waters, and the crews perished one by one as their drinking water became fouled, their food was infected with maggots and mold, and sharks killed anyone attempting to fish.

From the fact that there were later voyages we can safely assume that Dormal and enough of his crewmates survived this experience, even if their ships didn't.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

How do Orthdox, monotheistic Malkioni like the Rokari, and I guess the Hrestoli deal with Dormal's cult? Not to mention the atheist Brithini of Arolanit (to the extent that they have their own sailors at all)?

As I understand it, the Opening ritual is itself sorcerous (Combine Water and Trade, I expect). It's something you know, and while Dormal's cult teaches it to members, people with no particular devotion to Dormal can learn it. As Dormal shared it with the Vadeli, it became something anyone willing to risk dealing with them could gain access to, for a price. And so on from there. I imagine Dormal's cult has other seafaring magics as well though, that are less widely shared.

42 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was just wondering how a seemingly (poly)theistic cult and ritual has been integrated into monotheistic/atheistic societies and belief systems.

The cult itself is only semi-theistic. The  Pavis and Flintnail cults are a good comparison. Orthodox Rokari may make a show of castigating excessive devotion to an Ascended Master ("Whatever his father's pretensions, Dormal was clearly a mortal."), but they like their sea traffic and so have every reason to not ask for a translation of those Esrolian prayers incantations or look too closely at  "veneration" practices that happen out past the horizon.

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

How do Orthdox, monotheistic Malkioni like the Rokari, and I guess the Hrestoli deal with Dormal's cult? Not to mention the atheist Brithini of Arolanit (to the extent that they have their own sailors at all)?

Navigationalism is its own faith with Abiding dispensation but the official rokarite position seems to be in flux . . . before 1618 Guilmarn felt comfortable enough with the rite to support at least a small navy without fretting too much about offending Leplain. In the very near future they'll have more traditional maritime partners and the League is in trouble. I doubt the people of Arolanit have traveled by sea in 900 years.

All of this does beg the question of what Dormal was hoping to gain in finding Brithos.

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29 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Navigationalism is its own faith with Abiding dispensation but the official rokarite position seems to be in flux . . . before 1618 Guilmarn felt comfortable enough with the rite to support at least a small navy without fretting too much about offending Leplain. In the very near future they'll have more traditional maritime partners and the League is in trouble. I doubt the people of Arolanit have traveled by sea in 900 years.

All of this does beg the question of what Dormal was hoping to gain in finding Brithos.

My guess is that Dormal would have asked Zzabur for an explanation.

The people of Arolanit may have welcomed some of those last emigrant groups from Brithos, which would shorten that interval to some 700 years.

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6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

My guess is that Dormal would have asked Zzabur for an explanation.

I love it. If only more people could expect any form of accountability at all from that one!

From the scattered notes on Dormal's logs we have, his larger mission was at least compatible with piecing together the tale of the doomed Empire: old ruins, new cities, new coasts. I wouldn't be surprised if much of what we have now (maybe even the MSE manuscript) derives from his travelogue. If people are looking for a Gloranthan bestseller this is probably one, unless of course it remains a Holy Country state secret instead.

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The people of Arolanit may have welcomed some of those last emigrant groups from Brithos, which would shorten that interval to some 700 years.

That would be a tale to tell after the nominal end of the waertagites. Of course they wouldn't tell it to me, especially if it involved them riding profane wooden boats like everyone else.

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18 hours ago, metcalph said:

The ritual is completed when the ship sets sail and its effects last until the next landfall.  Or so I believe.

It's this.

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The Guide p. 649 mentions the Boat planet's return ending the Closing.

Even though the ritual covers an entire journey, if, weirdly, sailors were in the situation of being out at sea without the ritual having been cast, the ship wouldn't be lost (bar other reasons) - but the sailors wouldn't know why.

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22 hours ago, hkokko said:

What happens if the last Dormal initiate on ship dies while the ship is on open seas. Effect of closing (=real bad things) immediately or Real Soon Now?  Minutes, hours? Varies...

I'd put them into the Otherworld on some strange sea from the Gods Age. And hope they find some Fog of Iphara from which to escape through (or whatever other interesting idea you might want to use).  I've used the Fog of Ignorance surrounding the Tower of the Knowing God as one option before.

 

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12 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Open Seas ritual became obsolete with the Cradle.

I think Cradle meets the Wolf Pirates fairly shortly after it leaves Corflu, and everyone who doesn't disembark and join Harrek ends up going down into Maelstrom. Whether or not this counts as avoiding the Closing I don't know. 

The Closing is broken by the reappearance of the Boat Planet a few years later (an in world secret). But the Cradle may have been one of the many events leading up to that point that weakened the Closing. 

 

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11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I love it. If only more people could expect any form of accountability at all from that one!

Not sure that it was about accountability, really - more the desire to learn about the magic that caused the Closing. Dormal must have realized that his method was nothing like an impromptu repair, and his mission may well have been to make the rites named after him obsolete. Learning about the cause and original nature of the Closing would be a good place to start.

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

From the scattered notes on Dormal's logs we have, his larger mission was at least compatible with piecing together the tale of the doomed Empire: old ruins, new cities, new coasts. I wouldn't be surprised if much of what we have now (maybe even the MSE manuscript) derives from his travelogue. If people are looking for a Gloranthan bestseller this is probably one, unless of course it remains a Holy Country state secret instead.

Odysseus, Sindbad, Manannan or St. Brennan, navigating magical islands in search for something... in many ways this will be a familiar story.

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

That would be a tale to tell after the nominal end of the waertagites. Of course they wouldn't tell it to me, especially if it involved them riding profane wooden boats like everyone else.

Empress Somali, wife of Emperor Keralamalos and mother of Ilotos, was a Brithini emigrant. The statement that she left the island for her husband suggests that this happened at some time after his birth, unless we deal here with Pratchett levels of time-dilated love.

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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Empress Somali, wife of Emperor Keralamalos and mother of Ilotos, was a Brithini emigrant. The statement that she left the island for her husband suggests that this happened at some time after his birth, unless we deal here with Pratchett levels of time-dilated love.

It's almost easier to recalculate the chronology than it is to force someone so prestigious (and probably caste-bound in more ways than one) to take Jrustelan transport but the Svagad Fleet was evidently good enough. 

The Triosos wave is probably more of a problem in a post-waertagite environment but they might be a deliberate sacrifice coming in from the island to consolidate "the alliance" as the sorcerers become dominant and history repeats. They suffered our wooden boats in order to achieve the greater mission.

I would love a Dormal's Journeys at some point to go with those Unfinished Tales editions. EDIT of course in my deepest fantasy he's looking for Brithos in order to assassinate the blue man and liberate the peoples. But when he gets there it's all just these tragic huts, reds and browns in squalor. And he realizes Time has already had its revenge on the sorcerers, there's nothing more he can do. So he teaches the natives how to sail.

Edited by scott-martin
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On 2/7/2019 at 4:59 AM, hkokko said:

So it is still necessary for there to be Dormal initiate who knows the opening ritual in the ship. 

What happens if the last Dormal initiate on ship dies while the ship is on open seas. Effect of closing (=real bad things) immediately or Real Soon Now?  Minutes, hours? Varies...

How many Dormal initiates one would be expect there to be on the ship normally (one, just a couple, 5% of the crew, 10% of the crew). Would vary by culture?

 

In my Glorantha, the Open Seas Ritual is for one Voyage, i.e. from leaving port until landfall, so the ship will carry on until it reaches land. Hopefully, it can get to a part and hire some more Dormal Cultists, otherwise it is stuck at the Port. 

 

As to how many Initiates of Dormal, it really depends on the ship. Most ships have the Captain and maybe First Mate as Dormali, but some Holy Country ships might have more. After all, Dormal Cultists need to learn to sail and don't just get given a ship and told "There you go, get on with it".

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