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Fate of the ship if all Dormal initiates on it die

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23 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

How do Orthdox, monotheistic Malkioni like the Rokari, and I guess the Hrestoli deal with Dormal's cult? Not to mention the atheist Brithini of Arolanit (to the extent that they have their own sailors at all)?

In Old Glorantha, Dormal could be accessed as a Malkioni Saint, but I am not sure if that applies in New Glorantha.

In any case, Open Seas is a sorcery ritual, so Malkioni might be able to learn it.

If not, they can hire Dormali.

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22 hours ago, Darius West said:

I just thought of something.  The Open Seas ritual became obsolete with the Cradle.  Think about it.  There was no Dormal initiate on the cradle, and no Dormal shrine, and subsequently, rumor has it that ships started sailing without needing the Open Seas Ritual at all (though people still perform it, just to be certain).  So the question becomes, how did the Cradle break the Closing?

Not really. The Cradle was probably affected by the Closing, as it was sucked into Magasta's Pool.

The Ship Raising, or the Return of the Boat Planet is what stopped the Open Seas spell from being required. Dormali will claim that it is still required, though, as it gives them a reason for being, even though Dormal is the Helmsman of the Boat Planet.

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22 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Not really. The Cradle was probably affected by the Closing, as it was sucked into Magasta's Pool.

The Ship Raising, or the Return of the Boat Planet is what stopped the Open Seas spell from being required. Dormali will claim that it is still required, though, as it gives them a reason for being, even though Dormal is the Helmsman of the Boat Planet.

Their ongoing practices may or may not be helping Dormal buoy the Boat Planet and keep the seas open for all, but you can bet they believe it to be so. That sort of sorcerous-veneration-nearly-indistinguishable-from-theism is also straight out of Belintar's playbook.

Edited by JonL
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18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Not really. The Cradle was probably affected by the Closing, as it was sucked into Magasta's Pool.

Plenty of boats sink without being sucked into Magasta's pool as a result of the Closing.  Any ship that goes over the horizon is supposed to invoke the Closing.  Clearly the Cradle didn't do that, nor did it have an altar to Dormal onboard.  The Cradle literally sails for days past the horizon of Prax without invoking the Closing, we know exactly the path it takes, and it should have sunk on day 1 if the Closing was in effect.  Furthermore, there is no record of a late addition altar to Dormal being put onto the ship, and clearly Argrath would have been clued in if this were to be a problem.

 

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

the Closing was in effect

The Closing is still in effect until the Boat Planet rises in 1624.

That the Cradle sails beyond landfall may be due to any number of factors, the most likely of which is that the giants (or Pinchining) know the route to the Underworld via Magasta's Pool and enchanted the Cradle to get there. 

 

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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Plenty of boats sink without being sucked into Magasta's pool as a result of the Closing.  Any ship that goes over the horizon is supposed to invoke the Closing.  Clearly the Cradle didn't do that, nor did it have an altar to Dormal onboard.  The Cradle literally sails for days past the horizon of Prax without invoking the Closing, we know exactly the path it takes, and it should have sunk on day 1 if the Closing was in effect.  Furthermore, there is no record of a late addition altar to Dormal being put onto the ship, and clearly Argrath would have been clued in if this were to be a problem.

Not all boats sink as part of the Closing. Some are driven back to shore, some sail around endlessly, lost in some strange currents, some are attacked by sea monsters, some are bewitched by sirens, some follow the Doom Currents into Magasta's Pool.

Just having them sink is just plain boring.

The Cradle may well have found a Doom Current and sailed into Magasta's Pool, or it might have just sailed to the Pool under its own steam and dropped that way.

The Cradle did not have a Dormali on board, as far as I know, but it doesn't need one, as it is already Doomed.

 

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11 hours ago, Darius West said:

Plenty of boats sink without being sucked into Magasta's pool as a result of the Closing.  Any ship that goes over the horizon is supposed to invoke the Closing.  Clearly the Cradle didn't do that, nor did it have an altar to Dormal onboard.  The Cradle literally sails for days past the horizon of Prax without invoking the Closing, we know exactly the path it takes, and it should have sunk on day 1 if the Closing was in effect.  Furthermore, there is no record of a late addition altar to Dormal being put onto the ship, and clearly Argrath would have been clued in if this were to be a problem.

 

Over the what now?

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17 hours ago, Brootse said:

Over the what now?

I seem to remember that there is a kind of horizon effect in Glorantha, even though of course it's nothing to do with curvature of the lozenge. There isn't unlimited visibllity just because the earth/sea is flat.

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1 hour ago, Steve said:

I seem to remember that there is a kind of horizon effect in Glorantha, even though of course it's nothing to do with curvature of the lozenge. There isn't unlimited visibllity just because the earth/sea is flat.

Magasta's Pool lies below sea level and sucks things into it, so ships can dip down, effectively going below the horizon.

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3 hours ago, Steve said:

I seem to remember that there is a kind of horizon effect in Glorantha, even though of course it's nothing to do with curvature of the lozenge. There isn't unlimited visibllity just because the earth/sea is flat.

I found what I was thinking of:  

 

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Even if you disallow horizons on the sea, there will still be horizons on land, due to, well, differences in elevation. There's also the issue of atmospheric disturbances. 

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13 hours ago, Steve said:

I found what I was thinking of:  

 

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Even if you disallow horizons on the sea, there will still be horizons on land, due to, well, differences in elevation. There's also the issue of atmospheric disturbances. 

Yeah, in my Glorantha, I've used the meteorogical visibility ratings, and for the human visibility acuity 1 arc minute.

Visibility ratings:

Very poor: less than 1,000 metres

Poor: between 1,000 metres and 2 nautical miles

Moderate: between 2 and 5 nautical miles

Good: more than 5 nautical miles

And in really good conditions, you can see tens of kilometers on sea, or even over hundred on mountains.

1 arc minute means that you can see 1 m tall object at 3.5 km in perfect conditions, which means that you could on really clear days see a trireme at 50 km distance.

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4 hours ago, Brootse said:

 

Yeah, in my Glorantha, I've used the meteorogical visibility ratings, and for the human visibility acuity 1 arc minute.

Visibility ratings:

Very poor: less than 1,000 metres

Poor: between 1,000 metres and 2 nautical miles

Moderate: between 2 and 5 nautical miles

Good: more than 5 nautical miles

And in really good conditions, you can see tens of kilometers on sea, or even over hundred on mountains.

1 arc minute means that you can see 1 m tall object at 3.5 km in perfect conditions, which means that you could on really clear days see a trireme at 50 km distance.

A single arc minute is also very low definition. Legibility of text drops off below 18 arc minutes, and more basic symbols detail falls off below 16. That's perhaps less relevant to the Closing, but meaningful for spotting distances generally. For example, a 5m high emblem on a sail or large flag will have details visible at around a kilometer, and basic shape and contrast at about double that. Context might still let you reasonably infer more information from less detail, such as in cases where only a certain group used big red circle designs, or similar.

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On 2/7/2019 at 7:13 PM, Darius West said:

I just thought of something.  The Open Seas ritual became obsolete with the Cradle.  Think about it.  There was no Dormal initiate on the cradle, and no Dormal shrine, and subsequently, rumor has it that ships started sailing without needing the Open Seas Ritual at all (though people still perform it, just to be certain).  So the question becomes, how did the Cradle break the Closing?

Surely it's the Shiprise and not the Cradle that breaks the Closing for good?

And "getting sucked down the Maelstrom" doesn't strike me as necessarily a successful trip. 🙂  (Well, it is for the cradle because that's the point, but even so...)

Edited by Akhôrahil

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On 2/15/2019 at 2:03 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Surely it's the Shiprise and not the Cradle that breaks the Closing for good?

And "getting sucked down the Maelstrom" doesn't strike me as necessarily a successful trip. 🙂  (Well, it is for the cradle because that's the point, but even so...)

The point is, no ship can make it over the horizon due to the Closing.  Yes, Glorantha has a horizon, and the Closing made things such that when any vessel sailed out of sight of land, it sank immediately.  The Cradle didn't do that.  It went into the Maelstrom eventually, but it did not sink immediately upon losing sight of land as it should have.  This should raise a lot of questions, but it seems that nobody really wants to address it, other than to find reasons why it doesn't matter, when it obviously does and should.  For all anyone knows, the Shiprise was caused by the Cradle.  After all, the Cradle heads down the Zola Fel in 1621, and the Shiprise occurs in 1624, so logically could quite possibly have made the other possible.  Remember also that Giants (the children of Larnste) are tied to Issaries, who likes things like trade and communication, which the Closing and Syndics Ban have curtailed.

Edited by Darius West
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Didn't we have a thread on this not too long ago? Someone made the argument that the giant baby on the cradle grew up to pilot the Boat Planet. Time being different in the Underworld. (That was entirely a "In My Glorantha"-moment, not a statement about "canon" events.)

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

The point is, no ship can make it over the horizon due to the Closing.  Yes, Glorantha has a horizon, and the Closing made things such that when any vessel sailed out of sight of land, it sank immediately.  The Cradle didn't do that.  It went into the Maelstrom eventually, but it did not sink immediately upon losing sight of land as it should have.  This should raise a lot of questions, but it seems that nobody really wants to address it, other than to find reasons why it doesn't matter, when it obviously does and should.  For all anyone knows, the Shiprise was caused by the Cradle.  After all, the Cradle heads down the Zola Fel in 1621, and the Shiprise occurs in 1624, so logically could quite possibly have made the other possible.  Remember also that Giants (the children of Larnste) are tied to Issaries, who likes things like trade and communication, which the Closing and Syndics Ban have curtailed.

nah

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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

The point is, no ship can make it over the horizon due to the Closing.  Yes, Glorantha has a horizon, and the Closing made things such that when any vessel sailed out of sight of land, it sank immediately.  The Cradle didn't do that.  It went into the Maelstrom eventually, but it did not sink immediately upon losing sight of land as it should have.  This should raise a lot of questions, but it seems that nobody really wants to address it, other than to find reasons why it doesn't matter, when it obviously does and should.  For all anyone knows, the Shiprise was caused by the Cradle.  After all, the Cradle heads down the Zola Fel in 1621, and the Shiprise occurs in 1624, so logically could quite possibly have made the other possible.  Remember also that Giants (the children of Larnste) are tied to Issaries, who likes things like trade and communication, which the Closing and Syndics Ban have curtailed.

Okay, you seem to be saying a lot about how boats cannot make it past the horizon without sinking but can we get a source? Like a quote from the guide of another generally canonical source that? Sure, they never return, but as far as I know (and to be honest I know very little) it's never been explicitly said that they sink, as in going straight down to the ocean floor.

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It seems like lots of different bad things can happen due to the Closing, not just sinking outright.

In any case, I think that some combination of the Giants, Zola Fel,  Pinchenning, and the nymph below decks could between them work a one-off for the Cradle without unravelling the Closing altogether. 

That's not to say your theory is utterly baseless, but I find it much less cut and dried than you suggest.

I think that Dormal's journeys, the Cradle launch, Harrek's great voyage, and probably some other seemingly unrelated things all helped make the Shiprise possible.

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This post deals with Alternative Truths rather than with Darius' varying own Glorantha (where all his points may be factual).

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

The point is, no ship can make it over the horizon due to the Closing. 

That is a patently false claim.

The truth is different: While the Closing lasts, no ship can make it past the horizon without being claimed by the Closing in some way, or escaping it heroically or through some neat magical trick like the Opening ceremony.

The initial force of the Closing may have been more intense, but in the centuries since, there have been no invisible walls pushing ships ashore. If (and its a rather big if) the Waertagi made it in time to destroy Jrustela (and escape into Hell again, or perish with the Jrusteli?), then already a century after the Closing some suicidal sailing was possible again.

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes, Glorantha has a horizon, and the Closing made things such that when any vessel sailed out of sight of land, it sank immediately. 

Not true, never been stated anywhere in published material, contradicted fairly often in published material - e.g. Dormal's Third Journey in Men of the Seas, the journey of the Last Ship to Seshnela mentioned in Middle Sea Empire, and there are a number of other, unpublished stories from Greg during the Closing including Jonat's weird sea travel around 1040, and the potential involvement of a Waertagi fleet in the sinking of Jrustela.

What gave you this strange idea of ships going under like lead zeppelins?

All the rest of your observations on the Cradle are based on these two wrong assumptions (wrong anywhere outside of your and possibly other peoples' private Glorantha , that is), and might be worth some "what if" discussion, but I won't participate in that.

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14 hours ago, Darius West said:

the Closing made things such that when any vessel sailed out of sight of land, it sank immediately

No, No, No, No, No

One of the effects of the Closing is to sink ships, but the major effect was just to nudge them back to shore.

You seem to be repeating the same thing over and over, but it is just not the case.

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From the Guide:

Quote

Effects were various. Sometimes a huge monster or pack of smaller creatures appeared from below and sank the boat and ate its occupants. Sometimes fierce winds and waves pushed the ship backwards onto land, while other times the same forces blew so hard that the ship sank close to shore. An invisible force was often reported which was so strong it easily overcame the sailors’ own magical winds and waters. Sometimes the ship was simply turned around without anyone on board noticing until they saw themselves sailing back to land.

 

Edited by Steve
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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

What gave you this strange idea of ships going under like lead zeppelins?

I like lead zeppelins. Whole lotta love!!

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