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hkokko

Fate of the ship if all Dormal initiates on it die

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19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

"An curse unleashed by Zzabur to destroy the Middle Sea Empire at the end of the Imperial Age.

The effect of the Closing was to prevent all travel across open oceans.

Any ship going out of the sight of land would be lost to unknown forces: including the sea monsters, weather and Triolini.

The Boat Planet also disappeared.

The Closing was circumvented by Dormal in 1580 ST.

It is broken entirely by the Boat Planet Reappearance in 1624 ST."

 

Nowhere does that say that all ships sink when out of sight of land - "lost to unknown forces" does not mean "sink".

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20 minutes ago, Darius West said:

"The effect of the Closing was to prevent all travel across open oceans. Any ship going out of the sight of land would be lost to unknown forces: including the sea monsters, weather and Triolini.

Once again, it doesn't say it immediately sinks. Sure, "lost" can be interpreted that way, but it also can mean it just doesn't return to land. It also doesn't say it happens immediately, unlike your claim. And in any case, the cradle technically was lost too by going down Magasta's whirlpool, it never returned to land.

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I can't remember where I read that "your ship sinks if you lose sight of land" rule, but in the process of trying to find the source, but in the process of trying to find it I did discover the following tidbit:

Pages 27-28 of "The Middle Sea Empire" apparently in 996 a Jrusteli ship managed to sail from Jrustela to Nolos despite the Closing, arriving battered and broken but effectively intact. So apparently it was possible to beat the Closing even during its height, which is interesting.

Page 137 of the Guide to Glorantha also suggests the Closing can be as mild as merely making a ship turn around and return to shore.  It seems like a retcon to me.

If you happen to be looking for the information about Glorantha's "horizon", it is on page 36 of Strangers in Prax.

However... Page 31 of Gods of Glorantha (RQ3) offers the following regarding the Open Seas Spell...

"If the spell fails, then the instant the ship leaves sight of land, the Closing reaffirms itself and brings catastrophe to the vessel".  I know I have read more of the same elsewhere too.

Apparently that "catastrophe" is that the ship will gently turn around and return you to shore... This does rather undercut the significance of Dormal's achievements , doesn't it?

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Pages 27-28 of "The Middle Sea Empire" apparently in 996 a Jrusteli ship managed to sail from Jrustela to Nolos despite the Closing, arriving battered and broken but effectively intact. So apparently it was possible to beat the Closing even during its height, which is interesting.

They still had a concentration of badass magicians on the island then. Maybe not enough to completely defy the blue man and his people, but enough to skirt his curse just that once.

Which raises the hypothesis that the effect mutated over time under the weight of generations of relentless and increasingly desperate magical countermeasures. The rump God Learners had a century between the tsunami and their doom to throw everything they had at it. While they clearly failed to roll it back entirely, their combined work might well have fragmented the effect, inviting new catastrophes in some times and places while softening others. 

Either way, the initial phases seemed surprisingly gentle, sending boats back from Brithos or all the way back to the docks depending on their orientation to the "closing wave" or "wall." Maybe you get smashed only if you take too aggressive a tack against what would then amount to a true doom current . . . when your propulsion magic is too strong to fight the standing repulsion, the timbers pop.

Our sense of whether the Closing has changed over the publishing history is probably closely connected. A casual search indicates an ambiguous reference in Griffin Mountain . . . while "the oceans were cursed" the only real impact described is "all surface traffic was swept away." Spirits of the Sea in WF 8 is the only previous extended reference I've found so far and focuses on what happened to surviving waertag enclaves. 

I wonder how much Closing Lore comes from contacts with beached waertagites and how reliable it is. I don't even know for sure how we have such clarity on exactly when Jrustela ruptured.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Page 137 of the Guide to Glorantha also suggests the Closing can be as mild as merely making a ship turn around and return to shore.  It seems like a retcon to me.

It pretty much maps to the effects noted in the Missing Lands p.101 which was published in 1998, but likely written a decade earlier, so don't think there's any retcon there.

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Page 137 of the Guide to Glorantha also suggests the Closing can be as mild as merely making a ship turn around and return to shore.  It seems like a retcon to me.

Take a look at Men of the Sea p.19, Dormal's Third Voyage that never was - the Apollo Thirteen of Dormal's journeys. Of Dormal's fleet, several ships were pulled under the water by a kraken, and other ships experienced their drinking water fouling, leading to their miserable death of thirst. But evidently Dormal and a core of his crew made it back to their home ports, with or without their battered vessels, and took off for a fourth voyage, the one that went on to search for Lost Brithos, bringing the Thaw to Loskalm, and sending Dormal off to the Edge of the World.

If say one in three vessels is just returned to the shore at each attempt, with the other two thirds lost, few ships remain after a series of failed expeditions.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

However... Page 31 of Gods of Glorantha (RQ3) offers the following regarding the Open Seas Spell...

"If the spell fails, then the instant the ship leaves sight of land, the Closing reaffirms itself and brings catastrophe to the vessel".  I know I have read more of the same elsewhere too.

Apparently that "catastrophe" is that the ship will gently turn around and return you to shore... This does rather undercut the significance of Dormal's achievements , doesn't it?

You're mis-stating that sentence, again. Catastrophe can leave the ship intact and the crew dead and/or horribly mutated/mutilated, boarded by merfolk and monsters, the ship smashed ashore but at least part of the crew able to crawl to the shore, can swallow entire ships, pull them down into the Maelstrom, or send a ship back to the shore without major damage.

Ships that did successfully open the Seas still may be lost to such causes, too. Opening the Seas just gives the ship a good chance to arrive at its destination, but no guarantees.

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15 hours ago, Darius West said:

Apparently that "catastrophe" is that the ship will gently turn around and return you to shore... This does rather undercut the significance of Dormal's achievements , doesn't it?

Not really, as Dormal allows a ship to cross the sea, not just to sail. Ships have always sailed during the Closing, they can port-hop along the coast, but this is dangerous as they could still be hit by the Closing of they venture too far or are blown away from shore by a strong wind. Ships have sailed in bays without being affected by the Closing.

What Dormal does is to provide a ritual to allow any ship the ability to cross the seas without being affected by the Closing. It also removed some of the fear that people had of the Seas.

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On 2/17/2019 at 10:01 PM, soltakss said:

What Dormal does is to provide a ritual to allow any ship the ability to cross the seas without being affected by the Closing. 

Except that the God Learners were able to brute force defeat the Closing, just not perpetually.  The Cradle certainly crossed a lot of sea without any ill effect too.  I don't think going down Magasta's whirlpool qualifies as a catastrophe somehow; more like one in a long line of steps on the baby giant's education.  Or was the whole Cradle adventure ultimately in vain and they just let the baby die?  If not, where's the catastrophe?

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I'm not sure if it's right to just think of this in terms of "the Cradle worked because it had so much power" - it's perhaps more pertinent to say that the KIND of power that the Cradle has is what made it able travel the seas.

Giant magic is, perhaps, of such a nature that the Closing didn't affect it. The Cradle voyage as a "ritual" or "heroquest" in itself cannot be denied by any curse or sorcerous spell because it is woven too deep into the fabric of Glorantha.

One could argue that this seems counterintuitive to the seemingly mundane means with which it can be stopped in Zola Fel, but personally I think it fits quite nicely.

Just a thought.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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