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Steve

Dying and First Aid attempts

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On p.120 and p.65 of the 7e Keeper Rulebook, it says of First Aid that "It may be attempted once, with subsequent attempts constituting a Pushed roll".

Shouldn't it be "It may be attempted once per round, with subsequent attempts constituting a Pushed roll"? That would be consistent with the first example box on p.121 and also the flowchart on p.122.

Edited by Steve

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This is a good question, because when I read the sample box it makes it sound like the ally did not Push on the prior round and is making a "totally new attempt" on the next round. Language could be tightened up there, I think.  My personal understanding, which could be incorrect, is that First Aid is only effective "once" when someone is injured or dying, once it succeeds, because once they are stabilized, they are stabilized.  The example talks about how two or more players can combine a roll if they are all there.  But can First Aid be attempted consecutively too?  One character attempts First Aid, then another character attempts First Aid in a later round/time.  I guess it would have the same cumulative effect of rolling simultaneously...

Edited by klecser
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2 hours ago, Steve said:

On p.120 and p.65 of the 7e Keeper Rulebook, it says of First Aid that "It may be attempted once, with subsequent attempts constituting a Pushed roll".

Shouldn't it be "It may be attempted once per round, with subsequent attempts constituting a Pushed roll"? That would be consistent with the first example box on p.121 and also the flowchart on p.122.

My understanding is that these are two different applications of the First Aid skill.

1) Normally it can be used within 1 hour and grants 1 hp. This version can be attempted once and pushed.

2) The other use is to stabilize a dying investigator. In that case it can be attempted more than once until the patient is stabilized. The rules mention this:

Quote

An exception is allowed when treating a dying character (see Dying, below), wherein the best that can be achieved with First Aid is to temporarily stabilize the patient.

Stating that this is an exception to the "can be attempted once rule," mainly because this only stabilizes the patient.

Anyways, that's how I understood it when I read the rules.

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13 hours ago, drablak said:

My understanding is that these are two different applications of the First Aid skill.

1) Normally it can be used within 1 hour and grants 1 hp. This version can be attempted once and pushed.

2) The other use is to stabilize a dying investigator. In that case it can be attempted more than once until the patient is stabilized. The rules mention this:

Stating that this is an exception to the "can be attempted once rule," mainly because this only stabilizes the patient.

Anyways, that's how I understood it when I read the rules.

The exception on p.120 doesn't say anything about attempting First Aid more than once though. It says the exception is that the best First Aid can do on a Dying subject is to stablise them :"An exception is allowed when treating a dying character (see Dying, below), wherein the best that can be achieved with First Aid is to temporarily stabilize the patient".

The First Aid rules appear to be contradicted by the example at the top of p.121, where Harvey's companion attempts First Aid a second time in a subsequent round (he presumably didn't want to risk Pushing the roll in the first unsuccessful attempt).

It seems to me that an exception needs also writing in to allow one attempt per round on a Dying subject.

 

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3 hours ago, Steve said:

The First Aid rules appear to be contradicted by the example at the top of p.121, where Harvey's companion attempts First Aid a second time in a subsequent round (he presumably didn't want to risk Pushing the roll in the first unsuccessful attempt).

 

I don't see it that way in the exemple you mention. It's not that he" didn't want to risk pushing the roll," it's that when using First Aid on a dying investigator you can try each round and this doesn't constitute a pushed roll. As I see it, there are two uses of First Aid: stabilizing a dying character (can be attempted once per round until stabilized or dead, not a pushed roll) or to heal a point of damage (can be tried once and may be pushed).

On page 65, bottom of the 3rd paragraph of First Aid: "First Aid can be attempted again (by up to two individuals). This can be continued (without constituting a Pushed roll) until stabilization or death." That paragraph is about a dying character. It starts with explaining what happens if it's successful in stabilizing the patient (he gets one hour of grace). If he does not get medical attention in that hour and fails his CON roll, he goes back to his previous condition of 'Dying': make a CON roll per round. Someone (up to two) can try First Aid once per round to stabilize.

That's what I understand anyway, and what makes sense to me as a game design.

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16 minutes ago, drablak said:

I don't see it that way in the exemple you mention. It's not that he" didn't want to risk pushing the roll," it's that when using First Aid on a dying investigator you can try each round and this doesn't constitute a pushed roll. As I see it, there are two uses of First Aid: stabilizing a dying character (can be attempted once per round until stabilized or dead, not a pushed roll) or to heal a point of damage (can be tried once and may be pushed).

On page 65, bottom of the 3rd paragraph of First Aid: "First Aid can be attempted again (by up to two individuals). This can be continued (without constituting a Pushed roll) until stabilization or death." That paragraph is about a dying character. It starts with explaining what happens if it's successful in stabilizing the patient (he gets one hour of grace). If he does not get medical attention in that hour and fails his CON roll, he goes back to his previous condition of 'Dying': make a CON roll per round. Someone (up to two) can try First Aid once per round to stabilize.

That's what I understand anyway, and what makes sense to me as a game design.

Thank you, I was focusing on the p.120 explanation and had forgotten that p.65 says that First Aid can be continued each round on a Dying subject. But I still think that the wording on p.120 needs amending slightly, because it appears to contradict p.65 (specifically saying that it can only be used once).

When I was referring to a pushed roll, I meant that in the example on p.121 Harvey's companion failed his First Aid roll on his first attempt and presumably elected not to push the roll (in case a failure meant severe consequences), instead waiting till the next round to try again with a new roll. So that's what I meant about him "not wanting to risk it". So yes, I understand that his second attempt was in a new round and wasn't a pushed roll.

I'd play it like that too since as you say it makes total sense. Just that the wording on p.120 is a bit confusing.

Rather than my initial suggestion, I think it would be clearer if the exception wording on p.120, at the start of the second column, was updated along the lines of "An exception is allowed when treating a dying character (see Dying, below), wherein the best that can be achieved with First Aid is to temporarily stabilize the patient, and where a First Aid attempt may be made each round until stabilization or death."

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It all depends on what you want to get out of it.

"Kenny's dead", "OK, I attempt CPR using First Aid, damn, I failed", "Well, Kenny's dead, then", is a one-off shot at First Aid.

"Kenny's dead", "OK, I attempt CPR using First Aid, damn, I failed, I keep trying until he recovers or my arms drop off", "Well, Kenny recovers after a few rounds, as you succeeded your First Aid eventually", is multiple attempts at First Aid with increasing Penalties.

 

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