The Enlo Curse

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Even if neither you nor any of your ancestors was at the Battle of Night and Day, the womb-biting was shared by the Dozaki trolls, as was the coalescence into the Black Eater.

So - there was a battle, against nasty men of fire. There was a way too bright entity that got swallowed, and that then tore out of the womb damaging Korasting's fertility. That entity is D'Wargon, the Womb Biter.

Reason for the battle? None needed, nasty fire humans. Name of the foe? Irrelevant. The Black Eater's Darksense image (potentially with a blind spot at Nysalor) of the battle events is available in the Time-less moment, and can be re-lived by the curious and masochistic.

Absolutely understood.  That was never my question.  Just as every community has its own rationalisation of who or what is the deity of the sun (as per recent threads), the sun being an undenied and undeniable element of the cosmos, then even if they do not know of the 'actual' cause, each community would have its own rationalisation of each and every such.  Hence different pantheons with differing gods/spirits/whatevers of the same thing.  Rather like in the RW.

In the RW an event might be real and undeniable, but that does not mean that everyone will interpret it in the same way.  Is a solar eclipse caused by the dragon of darkness eating the sun, one sun dying and another being born, the renewal of the sun, or (ridiculous, I know) the moon being interposed between earth and sun?  Does the event require ritual bathing, tearing the hearts from victims atop a pyramid, the lighting of bonfires, or (ridiculous, I know) being viewed only through polarised lenses?   

It isn't that those who are not direct participants doubt the event, but how they rationalise/mythologise it that forms the basis of the question.

[soltakss]

For trolls from far away, they would have had a shock, as they would give birth to trollkin. After a while, they would HeroQuest to find out why and would find the answer, as they would be faced with Gbaji. Also, trolls who share the Curse of Kin are all part of Kyger Litor, so they all communicate with her. Mistress race Trolls everywhere are connected directly to Kyger Litor and would be able to find out.

I really don't think there are any trolls who suffer from the Curse of Kin and don't know what caused it, I really don't. After all, it happened over a thousand years ago and Arkat conquered a good portion of central and western Genertela, with trading links to other parts, for example the Kingdom of Ignorance and the Snow Trolls. Word gets about.

If some trolls had a different version of the Curse of Kin, it would involve some Light/Fire Being who burned Kyger Litor/Korasting. 

[womble]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For trolls from far away, they would have had a shock, as they would give birth to trollkin. After a while, they would HeroQuest to find out why and would find the answer, as they would be faced with Gbaji. Also, trolls who share the Curse of Kin are all part of Kyger Litor, so they all communicate with her. Mistress race Trolls everywhere are connected directly to Kyger Litor and would be able to find out.

I really don't think there are any trolls who suffer from the Curse of Kin and don't know what caused it, I really don't. After all, it happened over a thousand years ago and Arkat conquered a good portion of central and western Genertela, with trading links to other parts, for example the Kingdom of Ignorance and the Snow Trolls. Word gets about.

Aye. Divination: "Dear Mother of our Kind, why are we having these stunted weakling babies so often now? And can we do anything about it?"

[Ali the Helering]

I am afraid that I am a little too much of a realist/simulationist to join into too overt a buy-in to a GL/Cambellian Monomyth so fully.

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

My point is that if you are not in touch with the Nysalorian story, how do you attribute the curse?

The Sun Stopped in the Sky. This was against all that the gods had ordained. Black Eater the Night arose from the ground, from all the shadows, to devour the Sun. But the Sun pierced Black Eater, drove the shadows back and sheared off their size and form, cursing the whole race of Darkness. Thus were trolls cursed and trollkin born.

[Joerg]

While it may be nitpicking, but I am not quite convinced that it was Gbaji who cursed Kyger Litor - that was Nysalor, the Bright One, all on his own, without any need for Chaos.

Basically, he used the "Eaten by the Father of Lies" myth known to the Elmal cult since before the Dawn, with the twist that the Black Eater survived the experience (unlike the Father of Lies). That's straightforward Light/Fire vs. Darkness. Burnt from without - Uzko. Burnt from without and within - Enlo.

 

But.

Chaos.

Broken Compromise.

Yadda.

 

Where? Nysalor was a demigod, much like other god emperors (e.g. Takenegi, Sheng, Godunya, Belintar, the Only Old One).

 

Undeniably there was Chaos radiating out from the Bright Empire, later on. And there was Chaos radiating back, borne by Arkat and Talor, and presumably others, too. But none of that manifests at the Battle of Night and Day. That's straightforward Runic hybris like illustrated in the Argrath centerfold in Prince of Sartar:

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/99-change/

 

[soltakss]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

While it may be nitpicking, but I am not quite convinced that it was Gbaji who cursed Kyger Litor - that was Nysalor, the Bright One, all on his own, without any need for Chaos.

Oh, I agree.

Trolls, however, think that it is Gbaji, the Deceiver. Arkat was a Troll who fought and destroyed Gbaji the Deceiver, to avenge the wound caused to Korasting. Gbaji, the Deceiver, seemed weak and innocent, so the Dark Eater consumed him, but then he revealed his true nature and burned/ate his way out through Korasting.

We think of Gbaji and being Chaotic and Nysalor as being bright and good, with the Dark/Light side of Illumination. For trolls, however, they are one and the same, for they are but two masks for the same being. 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Oh, I agree.

Trolls, however, think that it is Gbaji, the Deceiver.

I am not sold. Trolls think that this was D'Wargon, the Womb Biter. The wound is way worse than mere deception.

Gbaji is a human concept, possibly brought to the awareness of the uz through Arkat, but a secondary one. The uz wouldn't have cared whether Arkat was Gbaji or not, as long as he ended Womb Biter.

If you look at what he left behind in Dorastor, you could easily identify Arkat as the true Chaos monster in the conflict. Talor's curse on the Telmori is little better.

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Arkat was a Troll who fought and destroyed Gbaji the Deceiver, to avenge the wound caused to Korasting. Gbaji, the Deceiver, seemed weak and innocent, so the Dark Eater consumed him, but then he revealed his true nature and burned/ate his way out through Korasting.

We think of Gbaji and being Chaotic and Nysalor as being bright and good, with the Dark/Light side of Illumination.

Nysalor is too bright, and amoral. Good or evil? Most of Glorantha is of the mindset that doing evil to your foes is doing good.

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

For trolls, however, they are one and the same, for they are but two masks for the same being. 

I just doubt that the trolls really care about Gbaji. They have their beef with the Bright One. They don't really care much about Arkat's previous cause against the Bright Empire, all they care about is that he led the fight against the Bright (and therefore evil) Empire.

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Sun Stopped in the Sky. This was against all that the gods had ordained. Black Eater the Night arose from the ground, from all the shadows, to devour the Sun. But the Sun pierced Black Eater, drove the shadows back and sheared off their size and form, cursing the whole race of Darkness. Thus were trolls cursed and trollkin born.

Some here argue that the intervening years between the Sunstop and the Day and Night Battle is too long for them to be conflated into a single mythic explanation for the enlo curse.

I personally agree with you, though. In the case of a lack of information form Central Genertela, I can't see the Sunstop not being associated with the sudden and catastrophic change in procreation a few years later.

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Some here argue that the intervening years between the Sunstop and the Day and Night Battle is too long for them to be conflated into a single mythic explanation for the enlo curse.

The Mistress Race trolls will know the truth, but after a 1000+ years from the event, I think most others would conflate the two.

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Mistress Race trolls will know the truth, but after a 1000+ years from the event, I think most others would conflate the two.

It all depends on how good you think their VERY long term memory is.  As organic beings they are neither inexhaustible nor inerrant.  For accuracy, go to the Mostali.

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

It all depends on how good you think their VERY long term memory is.  As organic beings they are neither inexhaustible nor inerrant.  For accuracy, go to the Mostali.

Traumatic experiences have a way of recurring that is hard to block. Whether those memories remain unchanged, and whether the heroquesting efforts so far influenced that timeless moment, I cannot say, but a mistress race ancestress will surely remember that burning in their collective wombs.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Traumatic experiences have a way of recurring that is hard to block. Whether those memories remain unchanged, and whether the heroquesting efforts so far influenced that timeless moment, I cannot say, but a mistress race ancestress will surely remember that burning in their collective wombs.

Indeed, and the agony will reinforce the personal and partial memories, increasing divergence rather than unity.

[The God Learner]

On 2/26/2019 at 3:22 PM, Ali the Helering said:

What mythological explanations might be offered in areas without knowledge of Nysalor?

Does it count as myth if it happened after Dawn?

I seem to recall an old description of the Battle of Night and Day that the Compromise was broken, but I can't recall the details offhand. Time is an interesting thing in Glorantha.

[Ali the Helering]

7 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

Does it count as myth if it happened after Dawn?

I seem to recall an old description of the Battle of Night and Day that the Compromise was broken, but I can't recall the details offhand. Time is an interesting thing in Glorantha.

The Compromise was broken by the revelation of Dayserenus, then that of Kyger Litor, and then Nysalor.  I am using myth in the broad sense, here.  I don't see why the Dawn would be liminal for myths, though; people still tell stories!

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, The God Learner said:

Does it count as myth if it happened after Dawn?

Absolutely, yes.

Pavis has Myths but only existed after the Dawn, same for the most of the Lunar deities. 

In my Glorantha, each mythical event makes a mark on God Time and it is that mark that can be accessed by HeroQuestors and Initiates. 

So, for me, events that happened after the Dawn but which form part of a God Quest are indelibly marked on the God Plane. Things like the Sunstop, Battle of day and Night, Battle of Castle Blue and Nights of Terror are all massive God Time events that happened within Time, as they gouged out parts of the God Plane and made them their own.

[The God Learner]

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I am using myth in the broad sense, here.  I don't see why the Dawn would be liminal for myths, though; people still tell stories!

Yes of course, I might have been nitpicking a bit too intently.

 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, The God Learner said:

Does it count as myth if it happened after Dawn?

The Mundane World battle, no; but when the battle opened into the Gods War, then yes as the curse effectively occurs in mythic time (as if it has always been that way).

[The God Learner]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, each mythical event makes a mark on God Time and it is that mark that can be accessed by HeroQuestors and Initiates. 

Mmm, perhaps my misunderstanding was that the Compromise was intended to keep God Time intact. Though we mostly have examples where various entities get away with violating the Compromise, except possibly for poor Kyger Litor of course. (The Red Goddess apparently gets to create an entire pantheon after winning at Castle Blue.)

God Time events in Time also raises the possibility of time travel by hero questing. As I recall this was hinted at for some time with Belintar and some Lunars. Is this still the case?

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Pavis has Myths but only existed after the Dawn

Same with Sartar, come to think of it. 

[The God Learner]

Just now, jajagappa said:

when the battle opened into the Gods War, then yes as the curse effectively occurs in mythic time (as if it has always been that way).

A good principle for how to think about it, though everyone also knows there was a time before the curse. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/3/2019 at 11:11 PM, The God Learner said:

Same with Sartar, come to think of it. 

This kind of thing is all over the place. Same with the Grazer creation myth (which is interesting because it's factually incorrect, but that doesn't make it any less mythically true).  

And, of course, the Seven Mothers.

One of the things about becoming a god is that you're now available in heroquests and on the God Plane, even if you lived within Time.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This kind of thing is all over the place. Same with the Grazer creation myth (which is interesting because it's factually incorrect, but that doesn't make it any less mythically true).  

Personally, I think that the Grazer creation myth is basically true for Harrjeen and maybe a few of his followers, to create the precedence for the rest of the former Pure Horse kin to enter Dragon Pass.

I have no information on the presence of significant numbers of centaurs prior to the establishment of Remakerela in Dragon Pass. This indicates that the centaurs of Beast Valley are quite likely descended from Pure Horse "volunteers" who were joined with their mounts to create this magical species, and that this procedure could indeed be undone. (It would have gone even better if there were Minohippoi about, humanoid bodies with stallion heads, to provide the lower part of the bodies for the cut ones, and heads for the horse torsos. You'd end up with leftover arms, though.)

Heroes who apotheosize carry their unique heroquesting paths as their myths. All of that happens in the Godtime, adds to it (rarely substracts from it - there will always be an Aroka to slay for drought-plagued Orlanth or Barntar heroes.)

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things about becoming a god is that you're now available in heroquests and on the God Plane, even if you lived within Time.

This availability already starts with worshipped heroes, like Hofstaring.

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This kind of thing is all over the place. Same with the Grazer creation myth (which is interesting because it's factually incorrect, but that doesn't make it any less mythically true).  

 

That is, of course, the basic nature of myth - fact is irrelevant, it is the truth that matters!

[soltakss]

On 3/3/2019 at 10:11 PM, The God Learner said:

God Time events in Time also raises the possibility of time travel by hero questing.

I normally play that you can HeroQuest to engage with the God Time Myth, but you drop out of the Myth back to when you started.

So, you could travel back to the the Cursing of the Kin and fight try to protect or strengthen Korasting, but you could not then exit in the time of the Cursing of the Kin, as one is in God Time and the other is in Time.

However, you could go from Node to Node, or Event to Event, in God Time, to jump to related events. So, you could follow the Red Goddess' Birth and God Quest, but jumping between events, if you were a skilled HeroQuestor with knowledge of her HeroQuests.

[Charles]

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

I normally play that you can HeroQuest to engage with the God Time Myth, but you drop out of the Myth back to when you started.

I'd say that this is true, however a sufficiently skilled HeroQuester (Arkat level skilled, nothing less) could perhaps exploit time travel. The trick would be to foresee an upcoming event as a retread of a historical event that is in the God Place (Sunstop, Battle of Night and Day,  Battle of Castle Blue), enter it as a This World Quest and exit in the original event.

So pretty much practically impossible because of the unique circumstances of each of these God Place, the difficulty of foreseeing, and the unwitting co-operation of the rivals, opponents, and enemies.

This, of course, should be the culmination of a story, not an intermediate step.