Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Julian Lord said:

That wasn't my point -- and Voriof is Storm, not Earth, and so has nothing much to do with those triads -- my point was that if you have Voria, the cult for girls, you need Voriof, the cult for boys.

That's not why Voria would get included. Voriof is handled just fine as a short associated cult of Orlanth Adventurous. The reason for including Voria is that as the goddess of Spring, she is part of a much larger and more important mythological web.

[svensson]

On 3/3/2019 at 2:56 AM, Jeff said:

I am still debating about whether to add Horned Man, Triolina, Subere, Wachaza, and Voria to the list.

It seems to me that Horned Man [the other primary Spirit cult along with Daka Fal], Triolina [the Water life cult], and Wachaza [the Water war cult] ought to be included. Without them, you leave holes in those elemental societal roles. Subere and Voria are pretty minor from an adventurer's point of view; they can be adequately worshiped through Kyger Litor and Aldrya respectively.

[svensson]

Quick question regarding Lanbril and Black Fang...

I was under the impression that both of these cults were international but very independent. What I mean by that is that the different cult branches never talked to each other and had no hierarchy beyond the local head priest, but there were cults of both located all over the Genertela... at least from Ralios to Prax anyway. So it would seem to me that including them in the Gods book would be appropriate.

Am I mistaken in all that?

Edited March 5, 2019 by svensson

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

Quick question regarding Lanbril and Black Fang...

I was under the impression that both of these cults were international but very independent. What I mean by that is that the different cult branches never talked to each other and had no hierarchy beyond the local head priest, but there were cults of both located all over the Genertela... at least from Ralios to Prax anyway. So it would seem to me that including them in the Gods book would be appropriate.

Am I mistaken in all that?

Both Lanbril and Black Fang are going in the forthcoming Pavis and Big Rubble books. Mythologically both cults are pretty insignificant. Lanbril may have lots of stories about himself, but nobody else bothers to tell stories about him. They are important for understanding Pavis, but not for understanding Glorantha, if that makes any sense. 

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

Quick question regarding Lanbril and Black Fang...

I was under the impression that both of these cults were international but very independent. What I mean by that is that the different cult branches never talked to each other and had no hierarchy beyond the local head priest, but there were cults of both located all over the Genertela... at least from Ralios to Prax anyway. So it would seem to me that including them in the Gods book would be appropriate.

Am I mistaken in all that?

Black Fang is specifically a Pavisite deity.  Lanbril may be worshipped in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country but nobody seemingly pays much attention to him there.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Black Fang is specifically a Pavisite deity.  Lanbril may be worshipped in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country but nobody seemingly pays much attention to him there.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Both Lanbril and Black Fang are going in the forthcoming Pavis and Big Rubble books. Mythologically both cults are pretty insignificant. Lanbril may have lots of stories about himself, but nobody else bothers to tell stories about him. They are important for understanding Pavis, but not for understanding Glorantha, if that makes any sense.  

Lanbril isn't supposed to be mythically significant. Where Eurmal is  a Trickster god, Lanbril is an out-and-out thief. Eurmal is by and large a rural deity of Storm pantheon who provides a place at Orlanth's table for those who don't fit in anywhere else. Lanbril is the god of organized urban crime for those who are disenfranchised in the larger power structure. Where Eurmal cultists find a role in their society as jesters and dissenters, Lanbril's people are absolute parasites who feed off the work and wealth of the world. And since he doesn't belong to any specific pantheon and has few ritual ties to other cults, he avoids that whole Sun vs. Storm vs. Moon kerfluffle. Therefore, it behooves Lanbril and his cult to have no great mythic deeds nor a huge role in society's ritual life. If a Lanbril Master Thief had his way, nobody would ever know the cult existed. Let others be 'heroes', Lanbril wants to be rich and subtly wield the power that wealth and those underground connections brings him.

As to the spread of Lanbril's cult, wouldn't it be present in the cities of Ralios given that the region is the interface between the Invisible God's influence and the elemental theist pantheons? With all the fighting and internecine strife, it would be a perfect incubator for a god of thieves.

As to Black Fang, I thought the cult was more international than that. It may be that my impression is from the GM in an old campaign I played in.

Edited March 5, 2019 by svensson

[Julian Lord]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

That's not why Voria would get included. Voriof is handled just fine as a short associated cult of Orlanth Adventurous. The reason for including Voria is that as the goddess of Spring, she is part of a much larger and more important mythological web.

OK so Voriof is in there then ... sounds good

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

 

Lanbril isn't supposed to be mythically significant. Where Eurmal is  a Trickster god, Lanbril is an out-and-out thief. Eurmal is by and large a rural deity of Storm pantheon who provides a place at Orlanth's table for those who don't fit in anywhere else. Lanbril is the god of organized urban crime for those who are disenfranchised in the larger power structure. Where Eurmal cultists find a role in their society as jesters and dissenters, Lanbril's people are absolute parasites who feed off the work and wealth of the world. And since he doesn't belong to any specific pantheon and has few ritual ties to other cults, he avoids that whole Sun vs. Storm vs. Moon kerfluffle. Therefore, it behooves Lanbril and his cult to have no great mythic deeds nor a huge role in society's ritual life. If a Lanbril Master Thief had his way, nobody would ever know the cult existed. Let others be 'heroes', Lanbril wants to be rich and subtly wield the power that wealth and those underground connections brings him.

As to the spread of Lanbril's cult, wouldn't it be present in the cities of Ralios given that the region is the interface between the Invisible God's influence and the elemental theist pantheons? With all the fighting and internecine strife, it would be a perfect incubator for a god of thieves.

As to Black Fang, I thought the cult was more international than that. It may be that my impression is from the GM in an old campaign I played in.

Which is why Lanbril and Black Fang get their write-ups in the new Pavis book.

[svensson]

Well, you're the boss

It's not like I won't be buying the books after all... lol!

I will say that in a city like Nochet or metropolii of the Lunar Heartland or Ralios, Lanbril ought to thrive. I mean, if a city on the edge of nowhere like Pavis can have three Master Thieves and their gangs all working [out of a population of just 5000], then those areas ought to have a dozen or more in Nochet and at least a couple or three per city in Ralios.

Edited March 5, 2019 by svensson

[Jeff]

24 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, you're the boss

It's not like I won't be buying the books after all... lol!

I will say that in a city like Nochet or metropolii of the Lunar Heartland or Ralios, Lanbril ought to thrive. I mean, if a city on the edge of nowhere like Pavis can have three Master Thieves and their gangs all working [out of a population of just 5000], then those areas ought to have a dozen or more in Nochet and at least a couple or three per city in Ralios.

Oh yes! And Nochet is so big it has *multiple* thief cults!

[Tindalos]

Kind of interesting that thieves get multiple cults compared to other professions, like scribes, who end up making do with Lhankor Mhy.

[Sumath]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Kind of interesting that thieves get multiple cults compared to other professions, like scribes, who end up making do with Lhankor Mhy.

Er... Irrippi Ontor?

[Tindalos]

26 minutes ago, Sumath said:

Er... Irrippi Ontor?

A former cultist of Lhankor Mhy himself. His cult seems just to be the same thing as a sub part of the Seven Mothers.

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Sumath said:

Er... Irrippi Ontor?

IO is LM or perhaps rather Buserian with some Lunar cycles flanged on.

But in Theyalan societies, if you can read more than Tradetalk tallies, you are a worshipper of Lhankor Mhy - at least a lay member (and that probably even goes for literate Thanatar cultists). If you are Lunarized, you can worship the 7Moms or IO, but the act of reading goes through LM.

Pelorian script probably does the same through Buserian.

Western script goes back to Tadenit, who is either another name for LM, an avatar of the bearded man, or a very close relative.

What this means is that there appear to be no ideographic scripts like the Egyptian hieroglyphs in Genertela west of the Shan Shan, but letter systems like the ones derived from Mesopotamian (or possibly Levantine) cuneiform. Older imagery is more like a picture story in the tradition of the Bayeux Tapestry, possibly less chronological than that. Petroglyphs preceding that probably don't attempt to invoke a syntax or sequence, but who knows?

 

It is quite possible that accountants are only associate worshippers of LM and connected to a mercantile or logistics cult instead, like Issaries, Argan Argar, Asrelia and probably others.

Skalds don't have to be literate, but those that are will probably be skalds first and foremost and scribes only on the side - in life as in religious practice.

The cult of Lhankor Mhy (in the Holy Country) offers a number of quite variant careers for the sages, including a whole number of knowledge-based crafts. While every apprentice of the sages must spend some effort as copyist, far from every graduate (or quitter) will spend the majority of their time writing.

[The God Learner]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

A former cultist of Lhankor Mhy himself. His cult seems just to be the same thing as a sub part of the Seven Mothers.

Irrippi Ontor is an interesting fellow. Defrocked/debearded Lhankor Mhy*, from what I've read, who then became one of the four** planners behind the Red Goddess project, and, of course, subsequently ascended. Presumably he has an extraordinary expertise in the god plane and planning out quests. 

* My personal speculation is that Irrippi had and still has an unseemly fondness for the Thanatar cult. His cult probably discreetly manages, protects and deploys small cells of 'interrogators' up to today. It's just so dang convenient.

** Four planners because Danfive Xaron and Teelo Norri appear to have mainly been tools and Yanafal Tarnis was muscle. I haven't found a good description of Danfive Xaron's real role during the RG quest(s) yet. 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 3/3/2019 at 3:56 AM, Jeff said:

I am still debating about whether to add Horned Man, Triolina, Subere, Wachaza, and Voria to the list. 

I would think you would want The Horned Man for his importance to shamanism, and Voria for the large number of women (half of Orlanthi populations) who have been lay worshippers as young participants in Voria day ceremonies at some point in their youths. In any case it looks and sounds great. 

Cheers

[Rick Meints]

On 3/4/2019 at 3:58 PM, kiryamo said:

Yes, precisely because I have seen several gods of chaos on the list I have asked the question.

And I asked, too, because in the book list that Jason Durall announced in The Kraken 2018 was included, according to The Runebloger, one with the provisional title of Gods of Chaos, along with God of Glorantha.

I would treat seminars like Jason's the the kraken as discussions and not formal announcements. The info is awesome and the discussion was great,  but it wasn't a press conference discussing a solid fully formed product.

[svensson]

13 hours ago, The God Learner said:

** Four planners because Danfive Xaron and Teelo Norri appear to have mainly been tools and Yanafal Tarnis was muscle. I haven't found a good description of Danfive Xaron's real role during the RG quest(s) yet. 

Danfive was volunteered to attempt the most dangerous part of Sendenya's Quest, at which he was only partially successful. I have found nowhere where it is explained exactly what that mission /role /whatever was, but it is clear that, while he didn't succeed, he succeeded enough to redeem a life previously given over to evil. In my personal opinion, it was Danfive Xaron's failure that required Sedenya's reformed spirit to use the help of Chaos to complete her apotheosis.

But I admit that I'm probably wrong about that.

[SDLeary]

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

Oh yes! And Nochet is so big it has *multiple* thief cults!

Sweet! I'll be looking for that Chapter when the book comes out! 😉

SDLeary

[RHW]

45 minutes ago, svensson said:

In my personal opinion, it was Danfive Xaron's failure that required Sedenya's reformed spirit to use the help of Chaos to complete her apotheosis.

But I admit that I'm probably wrong about that.

I like this theory. I've always thought Deezola and Yanafal Tarnils were essentially flawed heroes who went a little too far to try to free their lands from the Carmanians. With help from a pair of questionable allies (Jakaleel and Irrippi Ontor) and a pair of victims, one deserving (Danfive Xaron), one innocent (Teelo Norri) they undertook a twisted version of the Lightbringers Quest to create/recreate/resurrect a goddess who would deliver them from their oppressors, and it didn't go quite the way they planned.

I sometimes wonder if Deezola and Yanafal Tarnils are trapped in their roles just as much as Danfive Xaron and Teelo Norri. Whatever is left of mortal Deezola especially must understand she helped create the very kind of empire she rebelled against. When the Red Moon is destroyed, Jakaleel and Irrippi Ontor probably go screaming down into some sort of special hell. But Deezola, Yanafal Tarnils, and Danfive Xaron all breathe a sigh of relief... before being sent to hell because Argrath is an asshole that way.

Teelo Norri becomes the White Orbiter though, because I like a happy ending.

Edited March 6, 2019 by RHW
Rewrote the ending for poor little Teelo.

[Jeff]

48 minutes ago, svensson said:

Danfive was volunteered to attempt the most dangerous part of Sendenya's Quest, at which he was only partially successful. I have found nowhere where it is explained exactly what that mission /role /whatever was, but it is clear that, while he didn't succeed, he succeeded enough to redeem a life previously given over to evil. In my personal opinion, it was Danfive Xaron's failure that required Sedenya's reformed spirit to use the help of Chaos to complete her apotheosis.

But I admit that I'm probably wrong about that.

I'd suggest that it was only partially successful from DX's initial goals. The new book gives a ton of insight into each of the Seven Mothers. 

And is worth keeping in mind that none of the Seven Mothers are directly tainted by Chaos. 

The Red Goddess on the other hand.....

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I'd suggest that it was only partially successful from DX's initial goals. The new book gives a ton of insight into each of the Seven Mothers. 

And is worth keeping in mind that none of the Seven Mothers are directly tainted by Chaos. 

The Red Goddess on the other hand.....

That's kind of my point.

I don't think that any of the 7 Mofos intended to resort to Chaos, but that DX's 'almost-failure' [remember, 'partial success' also means 'almost failure' ] required an infusion of power tainted by Chaos for the Red Goddess' apotheosis to successfully happen. In this way they doomed the Empire to eventual defeat. The single greatest charge against the Empire [after its conquering nature] is that it is tainted by and accepting of Chaos.

As for the Red Goddess' taint, yes, in order to harness Chaos she needed to take Chaos into herself. Therefore she is tainted. It is worth discussing whether she was Illuminated before she became tainted as a mortal or that her apotheosis granted her Illuminated insights that allows her contain the Chaos within her in a controlled form.

As for IO, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he was an Illuminate whose lack of morals and ethics tainted the Sedenya's Quest. I don't mean to imply that all Illuminates are depraved. King Oddi of the Bilini certainly isn't. But it is a legitimate discussion within theological and philosophical circles here on Terra Prime as whether or not 'relative morality' can to rationalized depravity. How many people in history have been led to evil because they felt that their acts were for the 'greater good', after all?

Edited March 6, 2019 by svensson

[metcalph]

20 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Kind of interesting that thieves get multiple cults compared to other professions, like scribes, who end up making do with Lhankor Mhy.

As well as Buserian and Irrippi Ontor, other versions of the Scribal God might be:

Tadenit (among the Malkioni - Hates the Vadeli)

Korudel (Wise God of the Eastern Isles)

Vashanti (Emperor and Righteous Knowledge God of Kralorela)

[The God Learner]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

In my personal opinion, it was Danfive Xaron's failure that required Sedenya's reformed spirit to use the help of Chaos to complete her apotheosis.

Something I read ... er, somewhere ... gave me the impression that Danfive Xaron was originally an Orlanthi, which fits with how he is treated. I'm not a great fan of the LBQ being used everywhere for everything, but if we in this case go with that, perhaps DX was recruited to play the role of Orlanth?

However, it should also be noted that the Red Goddess really turned chaotic during her God Quest, which was some time afterwards. There are three overarching quests or collections of quests.

1. Seven Mothers create Red Goddess as Teelo Estara. This in itself takes something like twenty years of questing but has not been described in detail to my knowledge.
2. Red Goddess as Teelo Estara does her God Quest, meets the first Lune, has her shattering realisation and goes chaotic, returns as Teelo Imara with Crimson Bat. (from "Life of Sedenya")
3. That unpleasantness at Castle Blue, Teelo Imara uses someone else's break of Compromise to ascend.

While the chaos shows clearly in step 2, RG could have been tainted before that (added later: see below). I also wonder how and why that Lune turned up from somewhere. Perhaps the Seven Mothers constructed this entity and inserted it to get the God Quest off to a suitably lunatic start?

Edited March 6, 2019 by The God Learner

[The God Learner]

2 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

Seven Mothers create Red Goddess as Teelo Estara. This in itself takes something like twenty years of questing but has not been described in detail to my knowledge.

I should add that Life of Sedenya recounts the sequence of moon goddesses and other figures, including Nysalor, that the RG takes before incarnating as Teelo Estara. This could, I think, also be viewed as the blueprint for how the RG was manufactured.

Some might claim that at one point being Nysalor would impart a taint of chaos, though this depends on what you think of Nysalor of course.