Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha

[Bill the barbarian]

11 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I have been playing in Glorantha for years and have never heard anything about illumination from Orlanthi and Yelmalions interacting. Where can I read more about this?

Perhaps I can clarify my point, Yelmailons and Orlanthi ritually engage in riddling and this is considered normal and acceptable. In pastimes over a pint there would also be a series of canonical riddles that would would be told (perhaps a canonical style rather than a canonical riddle)  I believe a look in Cults of Prax or Cults Compendium should do for the ritual Orlanthi/Yelmalian Challenge ( I believe the bet and prize would be a gold Wheel). The  riddles told for pleasure and social instruction I will bet, I just remember from here and there from over the years, Digest, 'zines, tales and canonical sources) When I heard about riddling of course my ears pricked up and I thought... 'Hmm, like the Hobbit!'

Well not quite but... quite Gloranthan in any case.

So while the interaction of a couple of Orlanthi Yelmalian rune lords having a ridding contest is accepted, riddles that did not follow canon I believe would cause a second glance and possibly a bit of stink eye, if not outright accusation of being riddler.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Meeting someone who challenges its belief system and so it decides it wants to be different?

If that isn't enlightenment/Illumination, what is?

 

[Richard S.]

38 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Perhaps I can clarify my point, Yelmailons and Orlanthi ritually engage in riddling and this is considered normal and acceptable.

So wait, are you saying that the ritual riddling contests between Wind Lords and Sun Lords can lead to illumination? Iirc, Nyaslorian riddles are quite different.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

So wait, are you saying that the ritual riddling contests between Wind Lords and Sun Lords can lead to illumination? Iirc, Nyaslorian riddles are quite different.

Man, I sure do lack clarity here, Excuse whet will seem like strident reply but seeing as I am causing such confusion this morning...

I have never tied in nysalor riddling and the Yelamalian/Orlanthi ritual riddling contest, I had thought that I had done the exact opposite and said  that this was okay. Riddling for pleasure as opposed when following tradition was acceptable (usually, and emphasis on the usually) but deviating from strict norm could (emphasis on could) be seen as suspect. Out and out nysalor riddling, well I would assume such wood be a little less welcome than a Rune Lord Eurmali (no, do NOT start writing about this....)

I am sure I have said this three times so sorry all for wasting space, but clarity demanded it.

Cheers

Edited August 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[HreshtIronBorne]

47 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Perhaps I can clarify my point, Yelmailons and Orlanthi ritually engage in riddling and this is considered normal and acceptable.

I am picking up what you are putting down now. I did see the cool Gray Box text in RQ:G that outlines some of the ritual greetings, challenges, and riddlings that an Orlanthi would engage in with different cultists he might meet on the road. I REALLY hope there is more of that in the God and Goddesses book. I think it adds so much depth and texture to the cult relationships.

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, HreshtIronBorne said:

I am picking up what you are putting down now. I did see the cool Gray Box text in RQ:G that outlines some of the ritual greetings, challenges, and riddlings that an Orlanthi would engage in with different cultists he might meet on the road. I REALLY hope there is more of that in the God and Goddesses book. I think it adds so much depth and texture to the cult relationships.

Ah, thank the  lords... and ladies!

Cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I am picking up what you are putting down now. I did see the cool Gray Box text in RQ:G that outlines some of the ritual greetings, challenges, and riddlings that an Orlanthi would engage in with different cultists he might meet on the road. I REALLY hope there is more of that in the God and Goddesses book. I think it adds so much depth and texture to the cult relationships.

Thanks for pointing out that my old skool rememberings still found a home in RQ G!

Cheers!

[g33k]

I actually rather like this notion of  Illumination riddles being snuck into a "traditional" riddling contest!

Eurmali don't even need to "get" the Riddles / be Illuminated... So long as they memorize a suite of such riddles, and can do a passable disguise of either party.

Just SUCH a Eurmal thing to do!

[Bill the barbarian]

26 minutes ago, g33k said:

I actually rather like this notion of  Illumination riddles being snuck into a "traditional" riddling contest!

 

It is nasty, no?

[g33k]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

It is nasty, no?

No.

It is tassssty, my Precioussss...

[Bill the barbarian]

21 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

21 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I am picking up what you are putting down now. I did see the cool Gray Box text in RQ:G that outlines some of the ritual greetings, challenges, and riddlings that an Orlanthi would engage in with different cultists he might meet on the road. I REALLY hope there is more of that in the God and Goddesses book. I think it adds so much depth and texture to the cult relationships.

 

Until that occurs, if Cults of Prax or Cults/Lords of Terror are on sale they do go into the level of detail to give the textures and depths to parts of of your Glorantha that you mention, above.

Cheers

[soltakss]

On 8/4/2019 at 6:02 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Correct, one reason while non-traditional riddles are suspect in Orlanthi lands that use them in ritual or pastime. Of which I believe Dragon Pass hosts a few (Orlanthi lands, that is). And of course anywhere where Yelmalio and Orlanthi Cultists interact. Again a few places in Dragon Pass.

Soltak Stormspear was Illuminated when he met Nysalor on the Spirit Plane and gained 1D6% change of Illumination, rolling 5 and then rolling 03 a few weeks later at Sacred Time. He met Nysalor again and gained 1D6 Nysalor Riddles. As he was a Wind Lord, he delighted in asking Yelmalians his Nysalor Riddles instead of the normal Orlanthi Riddles in the Riddling Contest. Bad Soltak!

[Bill the barbarian]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

On 8/4/2019 at 11:02 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Correct, one reason while non-traditional riddles are suspect in Orlanthi lands that use them in ritual or pastime. Of which I believe Dragon Pass hosts a few (Orlanthi lands, that is). And of course anywhere where Yelmalio and Orlanthi Cultists interact. Again a few places in Dragon Pass.

 

Finally see where all the confusion to my posts on Sunday originated... well, besides my bad eyes.

Where it says

Correct, one reason while non-traditional riddles are suspect

it should say

Correct, one reason why non-traditional riddles are suspect

Oops!

Edited August 6, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[styopa]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Soltak Stormspear was Illuminated when he met Nysalor on the Spirit Plane and gained 1D6% change of Illumination, rolling 5 and then rolling 03 a few weeks later at Sacred Time. He met Nysalor again and gained 1D6 Nysalor Riddles. As he was a Wind Lord, he delighted in asking Yelmalians his Nysalor Riddles instead of the normal Orlanthi Riddles in the Riddling Contest. Bad Soltak!

Ah, now the source of soltakss comes out...

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, styopa said:

Ah, now the source of soltakss comes out...

GBAJI! of course gbaji

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

GBAJI! of course gbaji

<nods>

Explains so very, very much, doesn't it?

All that deep lore on his site (tempting! ... illuminating!)

Gaming resources... House Rules, leading one away from heterodox wisdom... etc...  So very, very et cetera...

 

[davecake]

On 8/5/2019 at 1:10 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

I have been playing in Glorantha for years and have never heard anything about illumination from Orlanthi and Yelmalions interacting

I think it is mostly implied (there must be a riddle contest when Rune Lords meet), but it also (for various historical and cultural reasons) makes perfect sense. 

[soltakss]

On 8/7/2019 at 1:13 AM, styopa said:

Ah, now the source of soltakss comes out...

Curses, my secret is revealed!

On 8/7/2019 at 1:18 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

GBAJI! of course gbaji

No, the other one, Nysalor, definitely Nysalor. Orlanth with his eyes opened ...

On 8/7/2019 at 4:45 AM, g33k said:

<nods>

Explains so very, very much, doesn't it?

All that deep lore on his site (tempting! ... illuminating!)

Gaming resources... House Rules, leading one away from heterodox wisdom... etc...  So very, very et cetera...

My ideal is something where you make multiple steps, each step is made for a very good reason but the whole takes you somewhere you really didn't want to go.

 

[soltakss]

On 8/4/2019 at 6:59 PM, Richard S. said:

So wait, are you saying that the ritual riddling contests between Wind Lords and Sun Lords can lead to illumination? Iirc, Nyaslorian riddles are quite different.

Indeed, the Orlanth/Solar Riddling Contest is just the asking of riddles and doesn't lead to Illumination. 

However, some Yelmalians are Illuminated, as Nysalor is an accepted part of the Solar culture, and can sneak Nysalor Riddles into Riddling Contests. This is seen as a BAD THING and they are normally uncovered and dispatched. It is also very rare, as more Illuminates don't learn Nysalor Riddles, learning Riddles implies a deeper knowledge and worship of Nysalor and is done by those who actively spread Nysalor Illumination.

Orlanthi, with the exception of Soltak Stormspear above, don't tend to use Nysalor Riddles in their Riddling Contests as they see it as spreading of Chaos. How little they understand ...

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

However, some Yelmalians are Illuminated, as Nysalor is an accepted part of the Solar culture

Yelmalio's origin is Nysalor... of course some Yelmalians are Illuminated, you've got them backwards. Yelmalio is Nysalor's "orthodox" entry into the Solar mythology

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yelmalio's origin is Nysalor...

Well, yes, in the Battle of Night and Day, Greg presented Nysalor's revelation of Daysenereus (aka Yelmalio) from which the Sun Dome Temples supposedly emerged.

But also, no, Yelmalio/Antirius/Elmal/Lightfore also clearly exist in the Godtime as the part of Yelm which did not descend into Hell.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But also, no, Yelmalio/Antirius/Elmal/Lightfore also clearly exist in the Godtime as the part of Yelm which did not descend into Hell.

Ok let's sort this tho:

Little Yelm (which is what "Yelmalio" means) existed

Elmal, Antirius are identified with the planet called after Lightfore, and with that deity.

I know it's not canonical, but we see him in Six Ages in both forms: Elmal Sun Chieftain, son of Yelm, chief of the Pantheon to both the Chariot-riders and the Horse-Riders, and Little Yelm, the Pretender Sun who keeps the cities of the Dara Happans lit under the glaciers.

But

(this is crucial)

The Sun Dome Yelmalio is specifically Daysenarus-Tharkantus-Yelmalio. Yelmalio was revealed (in the Third Age, natch) to be Tharkantus rekindled by the Prophet

Before this, Yelmalio is just Elmal in Dara Happan - Yelm/Elm is from the Sun root EL gold, shining.

It's an interesting thing because the Sun Dome Templars have a deeply contentious relationship with the Lunar Way, who are also (theoretically) Nysalorean. They actually rebelled against the Lunar Empire and the Goddess. The Templars are specifically Nysalorean and not driven by Lunar inspiration; they are theologically independent. (Also they really hate women, so the Lunar Way grinds their gears.)

So Yelmalio existed, but the SDT Yelmalio, I'd argue, is not the same thing. It's a different ... uh. Well it's got the same skin but it's not the same meaning as the original Yelmalio.

Below is Elmal lookin' rite sexy (I have no idea, I'm a lesbian, actually) and Little Yelm.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Antirius are identified with the planet called after Lightfore, and with that deity.

And Antirius is also Yelmalio, e.g. the Hill of Gold quests.

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I know it's not canonical, but we see him in Six Ages in both forms

Yes, and there has been debate about whether or not Elmal = Yelmalio. Personally I prefer that Elmal not= Yelmalio, as we see in SKoH as well as Six Ages, but canonically that's not the direction.

6 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Before this, Yelmalio is just Elmal in Dara Happan

I think more appropriate, Yelmalio is just Antirius in Dara Happan.

7 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yelm/Elm is from the Sun root EL gold, shining

Yelm is from the two roots: Yu - Elm (golden/shining god). And from GRoY this is really the revelation of Khordavu, a Sankenite who created/shifted the whole Yelm cult. However, Yelm worshippers also experience the truth that they descend directly from Yelm.

9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Sun Dome Yelmalio is specifically Daysenarus-Tharkantus-Yelmalio. Yelmalio was revealed (in the Third Age, natch) to be Tharkantus rekindled by the Prophet

If by prophet you mean Monrogh, then that's really just the revelation that Yelmalio = Elmal in Dragon Pass in the period 1550-1580. Yelmalio's Sun Domes in southern Peloria existed and worshipped Yelmalio well before that.  There is certainly a change post-Dragonkill with the majority of templars wiped out, but don't see this as any fundamental discontinuity.

Daysenarus is not a new god either, but just a new revelation of the older, pre-Time deity that is Yelmalio-Antirius-Elmal-Lightfore (and other local names).

As it reads in the Battle of Night and Day (WF 15, p.66):

That was when his chariot driver said that he could still see his sun god, who was called Daysenerus.
“If Daysenerus can show himself to me,” said the General, “then I will accept him with my full soul. Otherwise, shut up.”
“So be it,” said the driver, and he showed himself to the General and to those of his officers who were nearby.

Daysenerus, the God of High Light, revealed himself then and there in such brilliance that it altered the natural flow of cosmic power. A god was there when Daysenerus revealed itself in this world. Daysenerus was both one and not one, there and not there, then and forever; a profound manifestation of divinity into the material world. A god was there.
A god was there. The Compromise was bent. A strand of web snapped. A god was inside Glorantha, where all gods had agreed no god should be. Cosmic rules bent. Broke.

There are earlier texts which suggested that Nysalor brought forth Daysenerus. But Nysalor is not part of the picture here. 

19 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

It's an interesting thing because the Sun Dome Templars have a deeply contentious relationship with the Lunar Way

More like a very mercenary relationship.

Some of the temples (not necessarily all) certainly joined Jannisor's War against the Red Goddess/Lunar Way. By the end of Hwarin Dalthippa's wars, many would have supported the Lunar Way. The Tarsh temples probably did not until after Hon-eel in the Fifth Wane. 

23 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Templars are specifically Nysalorean

There are undoubtedly Illuminates, but they are not explicitly or specifically Nysalorean. Based on the Fortunate Succession, it's far more the Yelm cult that has had periods of Nysalorean influence.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There are undoubtedly Illuminates, but they are not explicitly or specifically Nysalorean.

I meant "as opposed to Lunar-inspired", which I think of as Jernotian, probably thanks to a certain potter's third daughter.

Certainly Illumination isn't actually limited to any specific followers. You can be an Illuminate without any special learning or techniques from, like, say, Nysalor or Jernotix (as the kids these days say).

7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There are earlier texts which suggested that Nysalor brought forth Daysenerus. But Nysalor is not part of the picture here.

Well, except that when Kyger Litor devoured Daysenarus incarnated in Palangio the Iron Vrok at the Battle of Night and Day in 379, it was Nysalor who broke out.

It's an interesting moment, because it's an inverted echo of the Hill of Gold: the hero god is disarmed by a betrayer and direly wounded by the Cruel God. But the hero god on this day is Kyger Litor, whose Fertility rune is injured just as Antirius' Fire rune was injured on the Hill of Gold by [insert preferred Darkness deity].

I still think Yelmalio ain't the original and that Yelmalio-the-Weird-Ascetic is a creepy Nysalorean cult, but all of this is interesting.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

(Also they really hate women, so the Lunar Way grinds their gears.)

They love to possess women, they hate to be commanded around by them.

While there is a lot brotherly love among the Templars, it is sexual while at the same time not about gender. It is physical affection between fellow combatants, and how they are plugged doesn't matter that much.

Outside of that comradeship, the templars and even more the miliitamen have the social pressure to provide new bodes  to the templars, and to keep the supply running as there will be attrition. That means reproductive sex, and that's where female templars are at a disadvantage as they have a harder time fighting while reproducing.

In both detailed instances of Yelmalio temples we have (Dykene and Prax) the authors have put these Light Ladies as the foremost champions of the cult. Confirming the stereotype through the exception.

But then we never have seen the Kuschile mounted archer regiments in print, a branch where female warriors are known from terrestrial history. Those are templars, too.

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Well, except that when Kyger Litor devoured Daysenarus incarnated in Palangio the Iron Vrok at the Battle of Night and Day in 379, it was Nysalor who broke out.

No, Daysenerus remained that big hunk of a spearman dominating the battlefield while Nysalor manifested as a human-sized robe wearing man floating toward the Black Eater.

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I still think Yelmalio ain't the original and that Yelmalio-the-Weird-Ascetic is a creepy Nysalorean cult, but all of this is interesting.

There is Antirius the Steward, ersatz-Emperor and holder of justice.

There is the Spearman cult which gets interpreted as the warrior aspect, and which leads a separate identity in Dara Happa as opposed to the frontier regions of Rinliddi or Saird.

There is the Sunspear cult of that street sweeper Avivath which has been merged into the Emperor Yelm cult when his descendant Khordavu became emperor.

Interestingly, the entity Khor which is a family magical guide of Avivath has been named as one of the Illumination forms of an earlier Sedenya. The first (well, actually second, there was Eusibus from Alkoth) Dara Happan emperor who was of Dara Happan ancestry within history carried the Lunar spark already.