Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha

[David Scott]

16 minutes ago, Humakt said:

Hi! Anyone can tell me if Kolat is on the description in the coming books?

yes, a simple spirit cult, can summon / dismiss air elementals, and see here:

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 8/10/2019 at 6:50 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Well, to be fair, names aren't everything! The Kingdom of Night was a banner of tolerance, like the original Unity Council, providing safety and protection to those who joined. It was voluntary and fought Chaos.

Yes, you give me your money and I tolerate you and don't eat your children. Hence the Tax War. ZZies fights Chaos and look how loathsome they are.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Yes, you give me your money and I tolerate you and don't eat your children. Hence the Tax War. ZZies fights Chaos and look how loathsome they are.

It was more on the line "you have this type of food which contains stuff other people are lacking, but your food lacks stuff other of the people we protect can provide." And protection may sound like a cheap promise or an extortion scheme, but only until you actually receive that protection.

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2008/5779.html

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Yes, you give me your money and I tolerate you and don't eat your children. Hence the Tax War. ZZies fights Chaos and look how loathsome they are.

yes, certainly this is the reason Esrolia joined Argan Argar's kingdom and why to this day its soldiers are called "Kimantorings" /s

Edited September 19, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[dumuzid]

11 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Yes, you give me your money and I tolerate you and don't eat your children. Hence the Tax War. ZZies fights Chaos and look how loathsome they are.

Ah, how the memories of men wither with all that sunlight beating on their heads!  Better to spend some time in the shade, and regain their wits!

How soon they forget that their people were fed and protected in the Darkness by the valor and generosity of Ezkankekko and his trolls of the Black Glass Palace!  The Kimantorings who braved the dying cosmos to connect the last holdouts of life, and the wealth and sustenance spread among those holdouts through Argan Argar's night markets!  The secrets of Darkness shared freely, and the leadership of the Only Old One at the Unity Battle! 

The Shadowlands were the debt of honor and gratitude the peoples of Genertela owed the Only Old One.  He asked for two things: tribute, which he shared back among the people through the night markets and the Equal Exchange; and recognition, of debts owned and honors received.  In return he gave back his friendship and protection, the benefits of trade and peace, intercession with the powers of Darkness, unity with friends and against enemies.  The Orlanthi of Dragon Pass rejected their place in the network of trust and tribute that had united Kethaela through every generation between the Unity Battle and the rise of the Bright Empire.  They did so with methods that ensured the Shadowlands and Only Old One personally would never completely recover, possibly retreading some of Eurmal's most sordid steps in the Lightbringers' Quest to accomplish it.  After the Tax Slaughter they took their newfound 'freedom' from Only Old One's counsel and went on to found the Empire of Wyrms Friends. 

Didn't that end splendidly for everyone?  I forget.  Too much time in the sun.

[Joerg]

44 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

The Orlanthi of Dragon Pass rejected their place in the network of trust and tribute that had united Kethaela through every generation between the Unity Battle and the rise of the Bright Empire

Not quite - they remained loyal to the OOO in the Battle of Night and Day, and they followed Arkat when he attacked the Bright Empire together with the OOO. Things soured between the Heortlings and the Kingdom of Night after they lost the tribute from Dara Happa but the Shadowlords still insisted to re-distribute that extra income to the trolls of Dagori Inkarth and Shadow Plateau according to Arkat's Command. This led to the Tax Slaughter of 1580, after which only the Esrolians and the Hendriki continued to honor the demands of the Shadowlords (providing for the Shadow Plateau, as had their ancestors, and not for Dagori Inkarth).

The Kingdom of Orlanthland and its successor, the EWF, stopped acknowledging the Only Old One's authority over them, but allowed those tribes who chose to remain under his shadow to continue worshipping the traditional gods without suppressing that.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

It was more on the line "you have this type of food which contains stuff other people are lacking, but your food lacks stuff other of the people we protect can provide." And protection may sound like a cheap promise or an extortion scheme, but only until you actually receive that protection.

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2008/5779.html

'as custom and tribute demanded' Tribute never seems to me to be a positive thing, demanded is rarely positive too. Semantics perhaps.

 

People usually only go to war when the they feel unfairly treated. Equal exchange doesn't seem like a really good reason to me, but they did and it wasn't.

The fans of Glorantha, runequest et al have always been excessively fond of trolls and it is evident everywhere, I don't think Gregg was immune to this Uzophilia either. Personally I've never been enamoured with eating my children or someone else's for that matter.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

yes, certainly this is the reason Esrolia joined Argan Argar's kingdom and why to this day its soldiers are called "Kimantorings" /s

They are a bit like the Italians who remember the time under Mussolini with fondness, 'well, public transport was well run and they were polite AND smartly dressed' etc, or Londoners' selective memory about the 'Blitz'.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

 

People usually only go to war when the they feel unfairly treated. Equal exchange doesn't seem like a really good reason to me, but they did and it wasn't.

There is a bit of previous history. When Arkat became a troll and attacked Dorastor, the Heortlings would instead conquer and plunder Dara Happa, bringing back great profit while avoiding the worst chaos the Bright Empire could throw at the attackers. Where the Heortlings had acquired a source of regular tribute, the uz bled and died without any such material compensation. To lessen future disputes, Arkat commanded that some of that tribute was to be shared with the uz.

The Heortlings lost control over Dara Happa rather quickly, but the uz still had not received adequate compensation for their sacrifice, so the Shadowlords insisted on the command being fulfilled.

Heortlings: "That's not fair!"

Uz; "It isn't our problem that you failed to hold on to your prize!"

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

They are a bit like the Italians who remember the time under Mussolini with fondness, 'well, public transport was well run and they were polite AND smartly dressed' etc, or Londoners' selective memory about the 'Blitz'.

this is a genuinely disturbing and honestly racialising take

[Alex]

16 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

The fans of Glorantha, runequest et al have always been excessively fond of trolls and it is evident everywhere, I don't think Gregg was immune to this Uzophilia either. Personally I've never been enamoured with eating my children or someone else's for that matter.

If it's any comfort, Sandy Petersen is in the "trolls are the bad guys" camp.  Or certainly at least very willing to visit it for the purposes of an argument to that effect!

[Nick Brooke]

22 minutes ago, Alex said:

If it's any comfort, Sandy Petersen is in the "trolls are the bad guys" camp.  Or certainly at least very willing to visit it for the purposes of an argument to that effect!

Here's the thing: just about every culture in Glorantha could be the "bad guys." Or the "good guys." It all depends on your perspective.

Trolls, Orlanthi, Praxians, Lunars, Pentans, Telmori, Char-Un: you name it, they're all seen as irredeemable villains by various other folk, who know them only as enemies and don't share their sane and reasonable world-view. And it's also perfectly possible to play games with any of them as heroes, doing good things in a culturally-appropriate manner.

The traditional exceptions are the Creatures of Chaos (broo, scorpion men, ogres, etc.) plus a few specially-designated Enemy Kingdoms from the old Orange Box (off the top of my head, that was just the Vadeli and the Kingdom of War).

I suppose another set of exceptions would include peoples seen as too weak to be dangerous: Oasis Folk, Boat People, Ergeshi, Baboons, Ducks, Trollkin and their ilk. Picking on them only makes you look petty and vindictive. (And maybe you are? Who knows!)

[Baron Wulfraed]

3 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I suppose another set of exceptions would include peoples seen as too weak to be dangerous: Oasis Folk, Boat People, Ergeshi, Baboons, Ducks, Trollkin and their ilk. Picking on them only makes you look petty and vindictive. (And maybe you are? Who knows!)

Until that Sword of Humakt beaks you in the knee 😱

[Alex]

2 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Here's the thing: just about every culture in Glorantha could be the "bad guys." Or the "good guys." It all depends on your perspective.

That'd very much be my take, and I'd go so far as to say the Orthodox one.  But then again I'm a stereotypical eurocommiegreenliberal, and Sandy appears in the Gloranthan Yearbook as "most likely to be Yelm"!

[TrvShane]

5 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Until that Sword of Humakt beaks you in the knee 😱

Wouldn’t that be a Beak of Humakti? :-]

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/20/2021 at 6:14 AM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

The fans of Glorantha, runequest et al have always been excessively fond of trolls and it is evident everywhere, I don't think Gregg was immune to this Uzophilia either. Personally I've never been enamoured with eating my children or someone else's for that matter.

I think that's just part of the backlash against the typical black and white mentality, where it's ok to commit genocide upon your enemies because they're evil thing... Orcs, gnolls, goblins, clichéd colour-coded dragons for easy identification.

 

But I'm sure this has been long debated and discussed thousands of times before...

[simonh]

Trolls are fun. They make terrifying enemies, very disturbing allies and throw an unpredictable element into any situation they're involved in.

[Shiningbrow]

Just a quick question - is there going to be a Cult Compatibility table in the new GaGoGs?

I presume yes.. but given the number of deities, how is this being done?

Also, is there ever a time where a sub-cult will have a different compatibility to the main cult?

[jajagappa]

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

but given the number of deities, how is this being done?

In a very big spreadsheet! 😉

[Lordabdul]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

but given the number of deities, how is this being done?

Jeff and Jason were actually asking for ideas about it several months ago on the FB RQ group, because a 100x100 matrix doesn't really fit on one page. There were several (IMHO) interesting leads, but I'm pretty sure they'll just partition it into 4 pages of 50x50 or something like that.

Edited September 24, 2021 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Jeff and Jason were actually asking for ideas about it several months ago on the FB RQ group, because a 100x100 matrix doesn't really fit on one page. There were several (IMHO) interesting leads, but I'm pretty sure they'll just partition it into 4 pages of 50x50 or something like that.

I'm asking myself if the god matrix is the god one. I think a cult matrix would be better :

the Orlanth cult in sartar may have different relation with yelm (=lunar ?) cult than orlanth cult in the far west (Yelm = he was the bad emperor but now accept the rules of Orlanth ?)

 

but of course, that means a 10000(cult) x 100(god) matrix

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think a cult matrix would be better

I has always been a cult matrix, and localized one at that. For instance, it has been said by the authors a few times that the matrix in the old Cults of Prax is quite specific to Prax, especially when it comes to cults like Yelmalio or Storm Bull. These two cults will potentially have slightly different relationships in the Sartar cult matrix.

Edited September 24, 2021 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

 For instance, it has been said by the authors a few times that the matrix in the old Cults of Prax is quite specific to Prax, especially when it comes to cults like Yelmalio or Storm Bull. These two cults will potentially have slightly different relationships in the Sartar cult matrix.

I did not notice that, my only reference is the "Dieux de glorantha" matrix, not localised at all, and then, too simple

by the way, a (for me) very nice matrix would be the different "stations" where two gods meet and what it happend

 

for example

ZZ - YO - hill of gold - ambush / zz wins / zz gains fire power from Yo / Yo loses fire power / period (well I don't know)

Orlanth - Kyger - kyger's home - steal / Orlanth wins / Orlanth gains sandals of darkness / Kyger ?... i don't know / period ? i don't know

a very big project... we need a new Descartes to create a great encyclopedia

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

by the way, a (for me) very nice matrix would be the different "stations" where two gods meet and what it happend

for example

ZZ - YO - hill of gold - ambush / zz wins / zz gains fire power from Yo / Yo loses fire power / period (well I don't know)

Orlanth - Kyger - kyger's home - steal / Orlanth wins / Orlanth gains sandals of darkness / Kyger ?... i don't know / period ? i don't know

a very big project... we need a new Descartes to create a great encyclopedia

I had such a SQL-based tool on chaosium.com about a dozen years ago. Basically, you link the participants and the locations to an entry describing the event. Unfortunately, it didn't migrate well, and then not at all.

The index also gave page numbers in the publications mentioning these. And it would have been possible to link the database to interactive maps

Can be done in a wiki, too, if you just use the hyperlinks as tags and don't complicate it introducing hierarchical categories.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I has always been a cult matrix, and localized one at that... cults will potentially have slightly different relationships in the Sartar cult matrix.

Yes, what I would do is a series of limited scope cult compatibility matrices showing cults that are active in various areas. And you don't need to know in a detailed enumerated chart which chaos deities Storm Bull is hostile to.