Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha

[The God Learner]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'd suggest that it was only partially successful from DX's initial goals. The new book gives a ton of insight into each of the Seven Mothers. 

Looking forward to it.

 

[svensson]

That is part of what I'm getting at.

Could it be that the errors made in the reassembly of Sedenya's spirit and it's rebirth at Teelo Estara have made the resulting being less potent than she needed to be to ascend to Goddess-hood? Would this less than optimal result have required the new being to resort to Illumination and/or the Chaos taint in order to gather sufficient power to challenge the Compromise?

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

That is part of what I'm getting at.

Could it be that the errors made in the reassembly of Sedenya's spirit and it's rebirth at Teelo Estara have made the resulting being less potent than she needed to be to ascend to Goddess-hood? Would this less than optimal result have required the new being to resort to Illumination and/or the Chaos taint in order to gather sufficient power to challenge the Compromise?

Could be. Might also be that Chaos was necessary in order to create a new goddess out of the many incomplete and broken fragments of the God Time Moon. After all Chaos is the source of Creation.

[Byll]

I've always assumed that anything re-constituted or inaugurated within time inevitably contains a trace of chaos. it's just a case of how obvious / potent the chaos is. Presumably the Mostali would disagree.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Byll said:

I've always assumed that anything re-constituted or inaugurated within time inevitably contains a trace of chaos. it's just a case of how obvious / potent the chaos is. Presumably the Mostali would disagree.

I'm not so sure about that, given how often in a year Resurrection is used across Glorantha. Because the 7 Mofos were reassembling a spirit shattered [but not dead] in the God Time, I have to presume that Sedenya existed in some scattered form within the Compromise and was therefore subject to it.

[Runeblogger]

IMHO, the Red Goddess is an illusion. She manages to dodge the Compromise because she exists and at the same time she does not. That's what her cycles mean (Full Moon = Full existence, New Moon = non-existence). That's why she's illuminated and that's why Chaos is necessary for her.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Runeblogger

[Julian Lord]

15 hours ago, Byll said:

I've always assumed that anything re-constituted or inaugurated within time inevitably contains a trace of chaos. it's just a case of how obvious / potent the chaos is. Presumably the Mostali would disagree.

I always assume that *everything* in Glorantha inevitably contains a trace of Chaos.

As for the World Machine, that's how and why it broke in the first place.

[Richard S.]

11 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

I always assume that *everything* in Glorantha inevitably contains a trace of Chaos.

As for the World Machine, that's how and why it broke in the first place.

Well that's the great flaw of the compromise isn't it? Time is a naturally entropic entity. Arachne Solara's web bound everything that was in the world, including chaos. I actually remember somewhere that the compromise couldn't exist without Chaos, since the non-chaotic world needed a common enemy to unite against.

[Julian Lord]

18 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Well that's the great flaw of the compromise isn't it? Time is a naturally entropic entity. Arachne Solara's web bound everything that was in the world, including chaos. I actually remember somewhere that the compromise couldn't exist without Chaos, since the non-chaotic world needed a common enemy to unite against.

Time isn't entropic, but Arachne Solara is basically a Chaos Goddess similar to Glorantha herself. Let's not get started on Uleria.

[styopa]

On 3/6/2019 at 12:12 AM, Jeff said:

I'd suggest that it was only partially successful from DX's initial goals. The new book gives a ton of insight into each of the Seven Mothers. 

And is worth keeping in mind that none of the Seven Mothers are directly tainted by Chaos. 

The Red Goddess on the other hand.....

Except isn't there at least some connection (and perhaps more than that) between Gbaji and the Red Goddess, implying that chaos wasn't incidental or accidental in her creation, but more or less fundamental?  Or inevitable?  Maybe the distinction is important here.

[styopa]

Given the dynamic nature of Gloranthan mythology, perhaps GoG would make more sense as a 3 ring binder where the printed word could be updated with the "new reality" as needed?

Only 90% joking.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

Time isn't entropic, but Arachne Solara is basically a Chaos Goddess similar to Glorantha herself. Let's not get started on Uleria.

Or Umath, who was explicitely armed with Creation to face the Predark, as per King of Sartar: The First Harp (p.49 in the hardback).

[Oracle]

4 hours ago, styopa said:

Given the dynamic nature of Gloranthan mythology, perhaps GoG would make more sense as a 3 ring binder where the printed word could be updated with the "new reality" as needed?

Only 90% joking.

In fact I think, this idea is really good. Maybe not so much because of the dynamic nature of Gloranthan mythology, but because of upcoming additions to the pantheons in new Gloranthan publications like Pavis or the Big Rubble of Trollpak or Fonrit ... you name it. This way you could keep all your cult descriptions in one place ...

I loved the approach, when it was used for the Encyclopedia Harnica ...

[KingofElfland]

Glorantha would become Hârn—a better Hârn, but Hârn in presentation. 

[Joerg]

57 minutes ago, Oracle said:

In fact I think, this idea is really good. Maybe not so much because of the dynamic nature of Gloranthan mythology, but because of upcoming additions to the pantheons in new Gloranthan publications like Pavis or the Big Rubble of Trollpak or Fonrit ... you name it. This way you could keep all your cult descriptions in one place ...

I loved the approach, when it was used for the Encyclopedia Harnica ...

That approach has the downside that there are no three-ring folders outside of the USA (and possibly Canada). Additional holes would have to be punched for European customers.

WIth rather lengthy Mythos and History sections, an electronic "full version" of available cults and cult special spells would be easier to produce and to distribute. Signed pdfs would open up the content for newly purchased content (through updates rather than collecting from the pdfs, I assume).

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Oracle said:

In fact I think, this idea is really good. Maybe not so much because of the dynamic nature of Gloranthan mythology, but because of upcoming additions to the pantheons in new Gloranthan publications like Pavis or the Big Rubble of Trollpak or Fonrit ... you name it. This way you could keep all your cult descriptions in one place ...

I loved the approach, when it was used for the Encyclopedia Harnica ...

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That approach has the downside that there are no three-ring folders outside of the USA (and possibly Canada). Additional holes would have to be punched for European customers.

WIth rather lengthy Mythos and History sections, an electronic "full version" of available cults and cult special spells would be easier to produce and to distribute. Signed pdfs would open up the content for newly purchased content (through updates rather than collecting from the pdfs, I assume).

My suggestion would be that the product could be of course produced in books if people really want that...and/or offered as straight printed pages.  Chaosium could offer prepunched for either US 3 ring binder, or Leitz 2-hole binders (or whatever is common regionally) or both (if that's feasible) just unpunched....you can take it to Kinko's and get it drilled to whatever is your local preference for nearly nothing.  (Hell, you can have them top-drill it, so it flips up, like a legal pad, if you wanted)

This would a) massively save cost as covers/bindings are expensive and complicated, b) speed distribution (they could just send to various regional printers), and c) allow players to buy as elaborate/sturdy/expensive binders as they wish, or break the text however they like into pantheons...whatever.

I originally meant it humorously, because the cost of actually shipping binders would be WAY more expensive, but then with Oracle and Joerg's comments, I realized: it actually would be better to offer it without a binder.  (Further, by doing it this way players could get new bigger binders as needed.  ASL did the binder thing brilliantly...the problem was that a 2" binder seemed enough but by the end of all the expansions, the 2" original ASL binder cover wasn't thick enough and the sections didn't all fit...)

Plus, personally, I *far* prefer binders and ring-bound products to books books; while slightly less durable and nowhere near as aesthetically attractive, they lay flat and stay open...about the only thing the shitty crap AH paper books had as their advantage.

This is even setting aside the obvious advantage of rules in this format, where errata or expansions can be issued as a single reformatted page "replace page 77/78 with this correction".

[BWP]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

That approach has the downside that there are no three-ring folders outside of the USA (and possibly Canada).

Well, that may be true if by "outside of the USA" you mean "Europe".  Plenty of 3-ring (and 2-ring, and 4-ring) binders in this part of the world.

It becomes a moot point if you use sheet protectors (which you want to do, because ring binders inevitably destroy pages inserted into them over time).  However, I know that it is difficult to find sheet protectors in Europe that will fit US Letter pages.  (Again, that's not a problem in these parts; our sheet protectors work for A4 and US Letter equally.)

The best binders are the "Ergo" brand (from Sweden originally, I believe) which although expensive are virtually indestructible, and are designed in such a way that the inserted pages (in sheet protectors) turn like the pages of a bound book.  My single-volume RQ3 Deluxe rulebook now lives in an Ergo binder after the original binding disintegrated (about 30 seconds after the book was first opened, as it's wont).

I think perhaps the simplest solution is for Chaosium to always format the cults (no matter in what product they're presented in) as if they were stand-alone sheets (even though that may result in a lot of blank pages etc., depending on how much text is in the cult write-up).  (Of course that's what artwork is for ....)  That way the individual pages can be printed from the PDF edition and inserted into a stand-alone binder, ordered in whatever way makes sense for the individual.

Just as useful would be to do the same for the creatures.  I'd rather see an alphabetical organisation for those than the order used in the Bestiary, and of course more and more critters will be published over time ....

 

[g33k]

On 3/6/2019 at 2:15 PM, Runeblogger said:

IMHO, the Red Goddess is an illusion. She manages to dodge the Compromise because she exists and at the same time she does not. That's what her cycles mean (Full Moon = Full existence, New Moon = non-existence). That's why she's illuminated and that's why Chaos is necessary for her.

Wait ...

 

Schrodenya?

 

[Pentallion]

Very excited.  Can't wait.

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, styopa said:

 

My suggestion would be that the product could be of course produced in books if people really want that...and/or offered as straight printed pages.  Chaosium could offer prepunched for either US 3 ring binder, or Leitz 2-hole binders (or whatever is common regionally) or both (if that's feasible) just unpunched....you can take it to Kinko's and get it drilled to whatever is your local preference for nearly nothing.  (Hell, you can have them top-drill it, so it flips up, like a legal pad, if you wanted)

This would a) massively save cost as covers/bindings are expensive and complicated, b) speed distribution (they could just send to various regional printers), and c) allow players to buy as elaborate/sturdy/expensive binders as they wish, or break the text however they like into pantheons...whatever.

I originally meant it humorously, because the cost of actually shipping binders would be WAY more expensive, but then with Oracle and Joerg's comments, I realized: it actually would be better to offer it without a binder.  (Further, by doing it this way players could get new bigger binders as needed.  ASL did the binder thing brilliantly...the problem was that a 2" binder seemed enough but by the end of all the expansions, the 2" original ASL binder cover wasn't thick enough and the sections didn't all fit...)

Plus, personally, I *far* prefer binders and ring-bound products to books books; while slightly less durable and nowhere near as aesthetically attractive, they lay flat and stay open...about the only thing the shitty crap AH paper books had as their advantage.

This is even setting aside the obvious advantage of rules in this format, where errata or expansions can be issued as a single reformatted page "replace page 77/78 with this correction".

It is not going to be made into a binder. Nor is it going to be laid out to support that. It will be a lovely hardcover book. If you want to print out the PDF and punch holes in it, you are welcome to do so.

[Oracle]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

It is not going to be made into a binder. Nor is it going to be laid out to support that. It will be a lovely hardcover book. If you want to print out the PDF and punch holes in it, you are welcome to do so.

No issue with that. I think, I was just extrapolating an idea, but what's more important is, that it appears at all - no matter in what format.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

It is not going to be made into a binder. Nor is it going to be laid out to support that. It will be a lovely hardcover book. If you want to print out the PDF and punch holes in it, you are welcome to do so.

While I do admire the art of the complete books, when it comes to reference, I do prefer a more modular approach, too, with images and maps as additional info to the text or infographic.

Your approach telling us we are welcome to create such personal copies - potentially "cut out" ones for re-ordering along our preferences - is quite generous in the current copyright rent collecting era. It only has the downside of being unable to share the work done in a legal way.

[soltakss]

On 3/5/2019 at 6:00 AM, Julian Lord said:

That wasn't my point -- and Voriof is Storm, not Earth, and so has nothing much to do with those triads -- my point was that if you have Voria, the cult for girls, you need Voriof, the cult for boys.

I think that far too much is made of Storm Tribe and Earth Tribe. Cults such as Voriof and Barntar belong to both Tribes.

[svensson]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

It is not going to be made into a binder. Nor is it going to be laid out to support that. It will be a lovely hardcover book. If you want to print out the PDF and punch holes in it, you are welcome to do so.

Given the quality of of the new product [RQG], I have no issue with that at all. I'm gonna buy the book in hopes that there's new or updated information within.

I will note, however, that Harn has a big following and has been very successful in its loose-leaf format. Further, from a strictly referee standpoint, it's much easier to organize information loose-leaf. But that could just be my old pen-and-paper thinking.

On that note, there has to be some kind of balance to be struck in the Glorantha wiki between the current 'buy this out-of-print product, page xx' and wiki entries that offer substantive information in the entries but still encourage product sales.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I think that far too much is made of Storm Tribe and Earth Tribe. Cults such as Voriof and Barntar belong to both Tribes.

Voriof is as much or as little an earth god as are Varnaval, the Praxian Founders or Waha. (And look where the Good Shepherd is listed in Nomad Gods... good or goof job making your point, Joerg.) Barntar has mostly earth related feats, except for his dragon fighting inheritance of the Aroka myth. Voriof has herd related feats, which is Earth at least once removed.

By ancestry, Orlanth is mostly an earth god, too. He has but one grandmother (Gata) and two grandfathers (Larnste and Aether, who himself is a child of Earth). That's five eighths Earth. Any children of his from Ernalda are going to be even more earth tribe, and bastards of his like Vinkgot are still around 50% Earth by ancestry.