Alcoholic Beverages of Glorantha

[RHW]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually, you can grow wine in some places with surprisingly cold winters, and even wet summers. I tend to think of much of Dragon Pass being loosely comparable to Switzerland, Austria, and Northern Italy (or to areas in the Balkans like Bulgaria, northern Greece, or Romania), all of which have very long traditions of wine-making. 

Austria produces far more beer than wine (about 5 times as much), ditto Bulgaria and Romania. Switzerland’s domestic production is 3:1 beer. Tyrolia has a long tradition of beer production, much more so than the rest of Italy. Though the Greek word for wine predates the Indo-Europeans, they brought beer with them. Today Greece makes roughly the same amount of each.

I’m not saying you CAN’T grow wine in places like that. But it’s much easier and cheaper to make beer. Modern consumption figures push Switzerland into the wine column, but most of that is imports. If they had to make what they drink, beer wins. Austria, Romania, and Bulgaria are all beer country, by both production and consumption.

 

 

 

[RHW]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

As an aside, the Lunar Heartland is climate-wise more like the upper Missouri or Mississippi valleys, with cold winters and hot summers. 

So the same latitude as France? 😉

While the natural climate for Peloria might have cold winters, magic moderates that and snow is rare, right? Thanks to Kalikos, you’re not getting a Minnesota winter in Silver Shadow or even First Blessed. I bet you wouldn’t have had them when Dara Happa was at its height either, except when things went horribly wrong.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, RHW said:

So the same latitude as France? 😉

While the natural climate for Peloria might have cold winters, magic moderates that and snow is rare, right? Thanks to Kalikos, you’re not getting a Minnesota winter in Silver Shadow or even First Blessed. I bet you wouldn’t have had them when Dara Happa was at its height either, except when things went horribly wrong.

True enough, but keep in mind that the Kalikos Quest only started in the middle of the 7th Wane (7/22 to be precise, or 1590 for you barbarians). 

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, RHW said:

Austria produces far more beer than wine (about 5 times as much), ditto Bulgaria and Romania. Switzerland’s domestic production is 3:1 beer. Tyrolia has a long tradition of beer production, much more so than the rest of Italy. Though the Greek word for wine predates the Indo-Europeans, they brought beer with them. Today Greece makes roughly the same amount of each.

I’m not saying you CAN’T grow wine in places like that. But it’s much easier and cheaper to make beer. Modern consumption figures push Switzerland into the wine column, but most of that is imports. If they had to make what they drink, beer wins. Austria, Romania, and Bulgaria are all beer country, by both production and consumption.

I cheated a little bit with my examples, since I spend my winter holidays every year in the Vinschgau (my in-laws are Bavarian and I spend the holidays skiing with my father-in-law) and as a result I am very familiar with what you can get there. It is a very old wine-growing area (at least since the 1st C BC, probably much earlier). There has been a trend in the last century or so towards beer consumption (probably a by-product of better transport systems), but wine is still the drink for evening meals, much more so than say in northern Germany (where I live).

But if we go back to my original post, beer is drunk in all agricultural lands. It is just too easy to make. But in Dragon Pass and Kethaela, it has a lesser "cache" then wine. You'd drink beer while working in the fields. You drink wine to honour the gods or your companions. Or to get drunk. If you really want to impress, you drink mead or honey-wine.

In Dara Happa, rice wine or rice beer is traditionally consumed (rice after all is the main crop in the Tripolis), although there is probably some viticulture in the West Reaches (white wine only - it is too cold for good reds). Now that doesn't mean the Lunar nobility doesn't drink wine like fishes - like the ancient Gauls, they buy it by the amphora, hauled all the way from Kethaela by mule. You've got daughters of the Red Emperor who snobbily compare a Vinavale red with a Longs red ("there's no comparison, you fool!"), and swear by the even more expensive Tanisor sweet red ("flavoured with cedar resin from Tarinwood!"). 

[Akhôrahil]

Distilled liquor strikes me as something more for alchemy and medical treatments than a regular drink. Although I'm sure that doesn't stop it from being drunk at times, as a novelty or by alchemy students. 

[RHW]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Distilled liquor strikes me as something more for alchemy and medical treatments than a regular drink. Although I'm sure that doesn't stop it from being drunk at times, as a novelty or by alchemy students. 

DIRECTIVE 127-5186-221E

ADVISORY NOTICE

RE: Inventory Shortages

It has come to the attention of supervisors in the Department of Gear and Rachet Maintenance that the departmental ethanol inventory has once again been inexplicably depleted beyond predicted needs for normrun maintenance procedures. This is double plus ungood. AgMosUnit calculations prove depletion cannot be explained by evaporation or overnorm useage rates. Current theory points to consumption. All MosUnits should be mindful that consumption of ethanol can lead to excessive Individualism and decrease in operational efficiency. World Machine Project is currently at a critical juncture, and maximum efficiency is required for Operation HW3ATermPhase1626. Ergo any MosUnit found consuming ethanol will be declared nonoptimal. Nonoptimal units will be subject to reconditioning, MosUnits which have a record of repeated reconditioning which are found with nonpassive concentrations of ethanol in their circulatory fluid will be preemptively recycled without further notice. FeMosUnits have been deployed to conduct spot checks per DIRECTIVE 127-5186-221D. All MosUnits are advised to cooperate fully with inspections or risk FieldTermRecyc. There will be no further Advisory Notices on this subject.

END DIRECTIVE

Functional World Machine!

Edited March 5, 2019 by RHW
Defective LetterOrderOp Correction.

[Akhôrahil]

54 minutes ago, RHW said:

RE: Inventory Shortages

"Alcoholism" as a new Mostali heresy.

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, RHW said:

So the same latitude as France? 😉

While the natural climate for Peloria might have cold winters, magic moderates that and snow is rare, right? Thanks to Kalikos, you’re not getting a Minnesota winter in Silver Shadow or even First Blessed. I bet you wouldn’t have had them when Dara Happa was at its height either, except when things went horribly wrong

Same latitude as France, yes, but not the same climate: New York is (roughly) 40 degree North, Chicago is 42 degree North, Madrid (Spain) is 40.5 North and Bordeaux (South of France, and 1 of the largest wine producing region) roughly 45 degree North, but there is almost never snow, nor freezing in Bordeaux (average low 3 Celsius in January, 1 day snow every 3 years), and Madrid rarely (elevation is 667 meters). And you have white wines in Alsace (where winter is very cold) and in the Moselle valley (close to Belgium) with snow and freezing every years. In Switzerland, Wallis and Vaud counties produce lot of (white) wines and in Germany, the Neckar valley is a continuous vineyard.

[Ali the Helering]

And very nice German reds, which are often best served chilled!

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

And very nice German reds, which are often best served chilled!

Now you are getting into the spirit! 

[Tindalos]

No, that's burned wine again.

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

No, that's burned wine again.

How do you spell 'Cognac' in Heortling?

[RHW]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

Same latitude as France, yes, but not the same climate: New York is (roughly) 40 degree North, Chicago is 42 degree North, Madrid (Spain) is 40.5 North and Bordeaux (South of France, and 1 of the largest wine producing region) roughly 45 degree North, but there is almost never snow, nor freezing in Bordeaux (average low 3 Celsius in January, 1 day snow every 3 years), and Madrid rarely (elevation is 667 meters). And you have white wines in Alsace (where winter is very cold) and in the Moselle valley (close to Belgium) with snow and freezing every years. In Switzerland, Wallis and Vaud counties produce lot of (white) wines and in Germany, the Neckar valley is a continuous vineyard.

Yep, exactly. You could definitely grow wine in Peloria. And it's been even easier since Kalikos started. 30+ years is plenty of time to get vineyards up and running. And while snobs at the Imperial Court may turn up their noses at the local vintages, a Silver Shadow red recently shocked the world by winning a blind taste test against the best vintages from Esrolia and Seshnela. In my Glorantha, the climate in most of Peloria is closer to Bordeaux than Minnesota and my Lunar Army will continue to be fueled by red wine vinegar and cheese. YGMV.

To quote Paulus Longvale's short biography "FAZZUR WIDEREAD": 

"Though more desirous of peace than of war, he kept the soldiers in training just as if war were imminent and inspired them by proofs of his own powers of endurance, actually leading a soldier's life among the maniples, and cheerfully eating out of doors such camp-fare as bacon, cheese and posca."

(Adapted from "Historia Augusta" on Hadrian.) 

Edited March 5, 2019 by RHW
Fixed some stuff

[Joerg]

45 minutes ago, Kloster said:

How do you spell 'Cognac' in Heortling?

IMO often "Trester" or "Ramazotti" - made from the remaining pulp rather than from the wine that is ready for consumption.

[RHW]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

But if we go back to my original post, beer is drunk in all agricultural lands. It is just too easy to make. But in Dragon Pass and Kethaela, it has a lesser "cache" then wine. You'd drink beer while working in the fields. You drink wine to honour the gods or your companions. Or to get drunk. If you really want to impress, you drink mead or honey-wine.

I think we're mostly on the same page. I just think grape growing and wine production in Sartar is Colymar's "special thing" and the rest of the tribes produce and drink beer in general, and mead or grain spirits when celebrating or conducting religious ceremonies. This would be especially true during the Occupation, with Colymar in full collaborator mode. Buying their wine would be seen by many as aiding and abetting the enemy. Often, what one chooses to drink can be a political statement, not just an issue of taste. 

And finally, when I try to imagine what Kallyr would serve when entertaining guests vs. what Jar-eel would serve, my imagination goes to beer or mead for Kallyr (with lamb, mutton, or beef, game meats, hard cheese, dark breads, and cold-temperature friendly vegetables like leaks, rhubard, garlic, and kale, served with salt and butter)  and wine for Jar-eel (with Oslir river fish, stewed goat, corn tortillas, rice, beans, cilantro* for a normal meal and much fancier stuff for a feast, all with lots of olive oil and garum). 

 

*Pelorians love cilantro, but because of a Godtime curse, to Orlanthi it tastes like soapy puke. 

[Julian Lord]

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

In Dara Happa, rice wine or rice beer is traditionally consumed (rice after all is the main crop in the Tripolis), although there is probably some viticulture in the West Reaches (white wine only - it is too cold for good reds).

And probably maize beer in Peloria.

I'd suggest too that many local beers would often be more like cervisiam (French cervoise), which is to say typically flavoured with a variety of herbs, rather than just hops exclusively as most modern beers are (I doubt there's anything like a German Purity Law in Glorantha ; well, maybe in Dara Happa ?).

Cervoise is pretty hard to find nowadays, and AFAIK the only breweries making it are in Brittany.

[Pentallion]

IMG, Gimpy's in Pavis gets in a shipment once a year from the local Storm Bull cultists made of fermented Sky Bull milk (don't ask and we won't tell) they call Thunder Brew.  Anyone who drinks it must roll CONx1 or pass out.  Those who roll CONx1 only rush outside to puke.  Fumbles can be fatal.  Newtlings are totally immune to the effects of Thunder Brew though only one Newtling has ever tried the stuff.

It is known that a giant was once felled by drinking it.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Pentallion

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, RHW said:

I think we're mostly on the same page. I just think grape growing and wine production in Sartar is Colymar's "special thing" and the rest of the tribes produce and drink beer in general, and mead or grain spirits when celebrating or conducting religious ceremonies. This would be especially true during the Occupation, with Colymar in full collaborator mode. Buying their wine would be seen by many as aiding and abetting the enemy. Often, what one chooses to drink can be a political statement, not just an issue of taste. 

And finally, when I try to imagine what Kallyr would serve when entertaining guests vs. what Jar-eel would serve, my imagination goes to beer or mead for Kallyr (with lamb, mutton, or beef, game meats, hard cheese, dark breads, and cold-temperature friendly vegetables like leaks, rhubard, garlic, and kale, served with salt and butter)  and wine for Jar-eel (with Oslir river fish, stewed goat, corn tortillas, rice, beans, cilantro* for a normal meal and much fancier stuff for a feast, all with lots of olive oil and garum). 

 

*Pelorians love cilantro, but because of a Godtime curse, to Orlanthi it tastes like soapy puke. 

And here's the difference in perspective - I see the Sartarite warriors and priests sitting around their king's central open hearth (think a megaron rather than a long house), drinking from a communal bowl of undiluted wine. They eat stews (mainly lamb pork, beefalo, and in many areas fish including salmon) seasoned with spices, plums, etc, or meat roasted on skewers, or smoked meat. Lots of meat, lots of cheese, with flat bread, crushed and boiled grain, beans, peas, etc. We actually have a huge list of recipes.

When the Sartarites think of high cuisine, they don't look north - they look south towards Esrolia. Spices, pork, wine, fish, you name it. Esrolia has always been agriculturally rich, but for two generations it has been the center of a second cultural exchange between Kethaela and far-flung places like Kralorela, Seshnela, Teshnos, Telos, and Pamaltela. It is the New Orleans, Lisbon, Venice, Marseilles, etc. of Genertela - the gateway to the rest of the world. Most high-status Sartarites have contact and connection with Esrolia, particularly those connected with the Sartar dynasty. You want garum? It is probably in Kethaela. You want chili peppers? Kethaela has it! Semi-tropical climate, but in a rain shadow, plenty of water, unbelievably rich volcanic soil, and with access to anything in the rest of the world, Esrolia is where you have exciting cuisine.

The Lunar Heartlands, in comparison, is pretty dull. It has its Red-Haired Caravan with Kralorela (actually Ignorance), but that is more expensive and lower volume than the sea-borne traffic from Kethaela. Jar-eel can probably have whatever she wants from wherever she wants, but for most urban Heartlanders, staples are rice and maize (tacos, hominy, corn fritters, tamales, etc.), fish from the Oslir, fowl, pork, etc., drunk down with beer and rice wine. Red wine is imported from the south for special occasions and is likely in great demand by the wealthy.

Remember, the Lunar Empire is NOT culturally much like the Roman Empire. It is more like an empire based on the Upper Mississippi than a Mediterranean peninsula.

[The God Learner]

I'd add that Lunar wines of course have certain vintages with odd properties. Not all of them, but enough.

 

[Noita]

The pcs in my game have a Mostali construct that distils whatever you put inside it and produces high powered alcohol. It follows them around and makes sure their cups are full. They will probably all go blind...

Plus they've appeased the local Praxian Agave spirit who teaches how to turn his plant into booze.

 

Who cares that distilling wasn't an earth thing in Bronze age times. I play in Glorantha and get my beer served by a talking Duck. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Iskallor

[Tindalos]

Distilling is a perfect use for the Alchemy skill.
We just need to figure out the POTs of various types of drinks.

[JonL]

On 3/5/2019 at 1:20 AM, Jeff said:

As an aside, the Lunar Heartland is climate-wise more like the upper Missouri or Mississippi valleys, with cold winters and hot summers. I know of far more good wines from the Vinschgau than I do from Illinois.  

There are quite a few wineries here in Missouri. More French-style down the Mississippi towards Cape Gerardeau & St. Genevieve, with German styles more favored along the Missouri. Much of their output tends to be of the sweet & fruity sort, which keeps the lights on and is fine when you're in the mood for such. Most have at least a couple of more sophisticated flavors on offer as well, with a few here and there being excellent. 

[JonL]

(double post)

Edited March 6, 2019 by JonL

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Remember, the Lunar Empire is NOT culturally much like the Roman Empire. It is more like an empire based on the Upper Mississippi than a Mediterranean peninsula

Not to beat a dead horse from the architecture thread, but this does raise a lot of questions regarding the flat-topped, mud-brick houses we usually see associated with the Pelorians, and the virtual monopoly of skirts/tunics and sandals over trousers, hose, braies/braccae and so forth. I understand summers are dry and hot, but continental winters don't exactly lend themselves too well to pseudo-Sumerian lifestyles/aesthetics.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not to beat a dead horse from the architecture thread, but this does raise a lot of questions regarding the flat-topped, mud-brick houses we usually see associated with the Pelorians, and the virtual monopoly of skirts/tunics and sandals over trousers, hose, braies/braccae and so forth. I understand summers are dry and hot, but continental winters don't exactly lend themselves too well to pseudo-Sumerian lifestyles/aesthetics.

In summer you wear very little. In winter you wrap yourself up. It is worth looking at Hittite attire for example (which was functionally similar to other Mesopotamian attires).

And yet, it is COLD in the central Anatolian highlands. Colder than Berlin in mid-winter. .