Fatigue...

[Trifletraxor]

Fatigue Points & the fatigue rules of RQ3 worked very poorly. Way to much book-keeping. I ended up with saying "Don't carry more ENC than you have FP", and left it with that. Still it was somewhat unsatisfying.

I did like the idea from RQ:AiG, with a CON roll every fifth MR, the multiplyier dependent on how many ENC you carried compared to your STR.

Have anyone of you used a houseruled fatigue system you where satisfied with and would like to share?

SGL.

[badcat]

One very simple one; have a simple system and only use it when it might actually make a difference. As in when the pcs are in a marathon or other desparate situation. A simple sum based on CON or END, and costs for activities will do. That is all I have found that I need.

[NickMiddleton]

Fatigue Points & the fatigue rules of RQ3 worked very poorly. Way to much book-keeping. I ended up with saying "Don't carry more ENC than you have FP", and left it with that. Still it was somewhat unsatisfying.

I did like the idea from RQ:AiG, with a CON roll every fifth MR, the multiplyier dependent on how many ENC you carried compared to your STR.

Have anyone of you used a houseruled fatigue system you where satisfied with and would like to share?

SGL.

I use a system of fatigue levels like RQIV:AiG, but rather than tying tests to specific events, apply them fluidly. For example, if you've just marched across the desert when the ambush starts, everyone can drop a fatigue level before we start and make a Stamina roll (CON x 5) to avoid loosing an additional Fatigue level...

I have notes on it and will get it posted up somewhere soon.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[Lord Twig]

We never had a problem with the RQ3 version. I am glad that it will be included as an option in the BRP rulebook.

[Nightshade]

Of the ones I used, I liked the check-on-event style system from RQ:AIG the best.

[Trifletraxor]

I use a system of fatigue levels like RQIV:AiG, but rather than tying tests to specific events, apply them fluidly. For example, if you've just marched across the desert when the ambush starts, everyone can drop a fatigue level before we start and make a Stamina roll (CON x 5) to avoid loosing an additional Fatigue level...

I have notes on it and will get it posted up somewhere soon.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

Nice! Something for the wiki maybe? I'd love to see some well-working fatigue rules.

We never had a problem with the RQ3 version. I am glad that it will be included as an option in the BRP rulebook.

So you and all your players actually kept ticking off FP points every round, applying the subtraction of skill percent when it dropped below zero? To me it was way too much bookkeeping.

SGL.

[Lord Twig]

So you and all your players actually kept ticking off FP points every round, applying the subtraction of skill percent when it dropped below zero? To me it was way too much bookkeeping.

Yes. What was to bookkeep besides ticking off the rounds? It takes approximately one second to tick off a fatigue point. Honestly battles rarely lasted so long that the negatives came into play, or if they did it got up to maybe -5% after 8 or 10 rounds or so. That is a pretty long battle in RQ3.

So if you had a 82% spear attack (because, you know, spears are awesome) and you rolled a 37, you hit. If you rolled a 79 you check to see what your negative fatigue is. If it was -3 or less, you still hit.

Honestly we didn't have to check that often, but people missed due to fatigue enough that they tried to avoid it. Endurance or Vigor spells became required spells for heavily armored characters, after Strength of course.

[Nightshade]

So you and all your players actually kept ticking off FP points every round, applying the subtraction of skill percent when it dropped below zero? To me it was way too much bookkeeping.

SGL.

It wasn't the bookkeeping but the way certain things worked out that annoyed us there; and the specific values of the penalties when they kicked in were a bit too fussy for routine use, I thought.

[Atgxtg]

Like Lord Twig, I used to use the RQ3 method with no problems. I7ve even tried having damage come off fatigue as well as HP (it worked and made some sense).

But, most of the time in RQ3, since fights tended to be short and bloody, I could just ignore fatigue for most fights. I would see how much FP the characters had and that gave me a decent margin when fatigue didn't matter. Ingore a 2 or 3% penalty was no biggie.

Fatigue only really came into play when people were heavly encumbers, like one guy who was wearing doublemail, and padding under a suit of plate (he started off at negative fatigue!), but he was dragon hunting, so it sort of a one off event.

[Kloster]

Hi,

1st time we played RQIII, we carried over some elements from RQII, including ENC management.

All the other campaign (and the next to be started soon) have used the basic RQIII fatigue rules. And yes, we all ticked 1 FP every round, and it was not a problem. We all had a sheet of paper to mark MP, FP and Hits.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Hi,

1st time we played RQIII, we carried over some elements from RQII, including ENC management.

All the other campaign (and the next to be started soon) have used the basic RQIII fatigue rules. And yes, we all ticked 1 FP every round, and it was not a problem. We all had a sheet of paper to mark MP, FP and Hits.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

The problem for most people was that once you hit the penalty part, constantly having to subtract varying values got tedious. Yes, its a part of the system, but there are plenty of times when you could normally just look at a skill as listed and use it as-is. Having to do the math, even if it isn't hard math, round after round could get old.

[Atgxtg]

The problem for most people was that once you hit the penalty part, constantly having to subtract varying values got tedious. Yes, its a part of the system, but there are plenty of times when you could normally just look at a skill as listed and use it as-is. Having to do the math, even if it isn't hard math, round after round could get old.

When I was running RQ3, Fatigue was usually a non issue. Most characters had a few positive FP points, and RQ fights tend to be short and brutal.

In the few cases where characters went into negatives, it was fairly easy to roll the dice, see if the result was close, and if so bother to check the penalties.

For the most part, if a character had a 85% sword skill, and rolled a 43, fatigue isn't a factor.

I can only recall two fights in RQ3 where fatigue played a real factor. The first was a massive fight where a dozen characters held off a group of 50-60 foes by holding two staircases, and the second was a situation where someone had put on multiple layers of armor to face a dragon. One the first situation was a bookkeeping pain, and that was less because of fatigue, and mostly because of tracking wounds, turns, and SR for 50+ NPCs.

[drohem]

Our RQ3 group did the same thing: we checked fatigue penalties when your die roll was close to your maximum skill level and the fight was lengthy.

[Kloster]

The problem for most people was that once you hit the penalty part, constantly having to subtract varying values got tedious. Yes, its a part of the system, but there are plenty of times when you could normally just look at a skill as listed and use it as-is. Having to do the math, even if it isn't hard math, round after round could get old.

No. As some others have explained for their case, most of the time you just tick your fatigue tally. You have to check only if the roll is close to your real skill value AND the combat has already had quite a long duration.

Except for the occasional miss by 1 or 2 percent, the only real influence I can remember is a memorable (for me) fight where most of the participants were nearing exhaustion (negative FP equaling starting value), and were taking breath to regain 1 or 2 FP , just to be able to strike without passing out.

This fight was one of the most tactical and interesting I ever had, because we all had to outthink our adversaries, to use all our capabilities, to exploit the terrain, just to avoid losing our lives.

I liked.

Runequestement votre

[Trifletraxor]

No. As some others have explained for their case, most of the time you just tick your fatigue tally.

That would be nice, but for me it would go something like this: "Have you remembered to tick your fatigue tally? Please tick the tally! Remember to tick the fatigue tally every round. TICK THAT BOX YOU MORONS!!!"

And I'd get responses like, "Yeah, yeah, [tick!]", "I keep track in my head..." and "But it doesn't matter anyway".

I want a better system. Ticking every single round takes time.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

That would be nice, but for me it would go something like this: "Have you remembered to tick your fatigue tally? Please tick the tally! Remember to tick the fatigue tally every round. TICK THAT BOX YOU MORONS!!!"

And I'd get responses like, "Yeah, yeah, [tick!]", "I keep track in my head..." and "But it doesn't matter anyway".

I want a better system. Ticking every single round takes time.

SGL.

But every ophter system that handles fatigue "in combat" generally requires that you track the passage of time.

Maybe instead of the players ticking off points, the GM could keep track of what turn it is and use that, instead of rely on players to tick off points.

I can think of several less detailed methods, inclduing those from RQ2.

One simple method would be to let each character fight STRx3 minutes before they are exhausted and must half skill ratings. If ENC> STR use STRx2, and so forth. But, at that level fatigure can be basically ingored.

[Nightshade]

But every ophter system that handles fatigue "in combat" generally requires that you track the passage of time.

Not all of them require you to bookkeep every round, however. The RQ: AIG system, for example, made some checks at the start of combat based on what you'd been doing before and you encumberance, and then assumed you were good for a few rounds. And the time when you needed to check again was consistent for everyone, so all the GM had to do was keep track of when that check point rolled around and then say "Time for fatigue checks again."

[Nightshade]

When I was running RQ3, Fatigue was usually a non issue. Most characters had a few positive FP points, and RQ fights tend to be short and brutal.

I saw quite a few who rode the ragged edge, and we certainly saw 10-15 round fights on occasion.

[Nightshade]

No. As some others have explained for their case, most of the time you just tick your fatigue tally. You have to check only if the roll is close to your real skill value AND the combat has already had quite a long duration.

I will put bets this just means in practice it gets missed fairly often.

[Atgxtg]

I will put bets this just means in practice it gets missed fairly often.

I won't take that beit either. Being the guy who ran such, it did get missed a bit. Especially when people were bleeding to death, someone was tryting to get off a haeal, while other were trying to get off the last hit.

But, to be honest, it really didn't matter too much. Gnerally a 5% error in the hit percentages either way wasn't that big a deal.

To me, the bigger pain in the butt bookeeping wise, was magic. Everyone cast differernt spells in differernt rounds, then having to keep track of when what wore off of whom.

I think the easiest method (other than ignore fatigue entirely), is to roll after a fight (or maybe before and after, if the group has been active) and apply a penalty then. Realistically, it is almost impossible for someone to pass out from fatigue while fighting for their life. Adrenaline will keep them going. They will probably "crash" after the fight, but really no one is going to fall over from the weight of a breastplate when someone's swinging an axe at them. Not when most fights rarely last more than a minute or two.

You could even force a roll when a hit location gets reduced to 0. People do pass out from pain.

[Nightshade]

I won't take that beit either. Being the guy who ran such, it did get missed a bit. Especially when people were bleeding to death, someone was tryting to get off a haeal, while other were trying to get off the last hit.

But, to be honest, it really didn't matter too much. Gnerally a 5% error in the hit percentages either way wasn't that big a deal.

Probably true, but at that point I'm not sure why a round-to-round tally is worth the bother.

To me, the bigger pain in the butt bookeeping wise, was magic. Everyone cast differernt spells in differernt rounds, then having to keep track of when what wore off of whom.

Well, as I recall, by RQ3 that shouldn't have been much of an issue any more; most spells had a duration long enough that if you cast them in combat, even a long combat was _very_ unlikely to last long enough for them to wear off. Even Spirit Magic typically lasted 5 minutes/25 melee rounds, after all. You might occasionally see one of those wear off. The 10 minute sorcery spells or 15 minute divine spells on the other hand, where pretty much "forever" if cast after the actual start of a battle.

I think the easiest method (other than ignore fatigue entirely), is to roll after a fight (or maybe before and after, if the group has been active) and apply a penalty then. Realistically, it is almost impossible for someone to pass out

That's mostly the tact that RQ: AIG took, and it had the best handling of this issue I've seen to date. It was theoretically possible to pass out in a fight from fatigue, but it virtually would have required that you were already almost exhausted when you got into it, or some magical process had made you so.

You could even force a roll when a hit location gets reduced to 0. People do pass out from pain.

I think that's a seperate process and a bit disconnected from fatigue issues, though.

[Atgxtg]

Probably true, but at that point I'm not sure why a round-to-round tally is worth the bother.

I think mostly becuase it is very, very easy. I'd say easier than most other fatigue systems. Probably not that useful, but easy.

IMO, fatigue isn't as big a deal as (over)encumberance.

Well, as I recall, by RQ3 that shouldn't have been much of an issue any more; most spells had a duration long enough that if you cast them in combat, even a long combat was _very_ unlikely to last long enough for them to wear off. Even Spirit Magic typically lasted 5 minutes/25 melee rounds, after all. You might occasionally see one of those wear off. The 10 minute sorcery spells or 15 minute divine spells on the other hand, where pretty much "forever" if cast after the actual start of a battle.

I thought that too. Problem was, with a 5 minute duration, characters could cast spells before moving into position. For instance, tossing up some bladesharp and protection before sneaking up under silence. In play, the 2 minute/ten round thing was easier for us.

That's mostly the tact that RQ: AIG took, and it had the best handling of this issue I've seen to date. It was theoretically possible to pass out in a fight from fatigue, but it virtually would have required that you were already almost exhausted when you got into it, or some magical process had made you so.

It's a solid method. A few games use fatigue levels, and that works out okay, too. Doing something strenuous requires a test, and the more strenuous the more difficult or often the test.

I also liked the way the James Bond RPG handled it. You got so many minutes of activity, based on stats, and then you were exhausted and suppered a penalty (about 1/2) to rolls. In extreme cases (like in the outback on a hit day) exterion counted at a faster than normal rate.

I think that's a seperate process and a bit disconnected from fatigue issues, though.

Not entirely. A wounded person should tire faster than a healthy one. So an injury penalty would seem appropriate. Likewise someone who is exhausted is more likely to pass out from an injury, and vice versa. The bit in all those army movies where one person gets injured during a hike and can't keep up is true. Even something like a broken arm will cause people to tire faster. Injury is probably at least as significant as encumbrance.

[Nightshade]

I think mostly becuase it is very, very easy. I'd say easier than most other fatigue systems. Probably not that useful, but easy.

IMO, fatigue isn't as big a deal as (over)encumberance.

You're correct of course; I just thought the round to round bookkeeping was more finicky than necessary, even if you did want to track fatigue. I suspect it was only done that way because it fit with the hit point and magic point models of RQ3.

I thought that too. Problem was, with a 5 minute duration, characters could cast spells before moving into position. For instance, tossing up some bladesharp and protection before sneaking up under silence. In play, the 2 minute/ten round thing was easier for us.

Why was that a problem? In those cases where you had warning, I don't see a little magical prep as being a big issue. At the lower end you still only had so many spells, and at the upper end most opponents who were worth your trouble could usually find ways to buy time to get their own spells up.

It's a solid method. A few games use fatigue levels, and that works out okay, too. Doing something strenuous requires a test, and the more strenuous the more difficult or often the test.

I probably wasn't clear but that was the RQ:AIG approach. Essentially, if you got into a situation where fatigue-significant rolls were liable to be made, you checked to see what the characters had been doing before, and made a fatigue check (or more than one if they'd been doing things like marching cross country for two days at an accellerated pace) and applied the fatigue levels then; they then made another check every ten rounds in combat. As I recall there were four or five different levels with different levels of penalty. Only thing wrong with it (and this was easily fixed) was that instead of applying as penalties to the base, they were applied as modifiers to the roll which made it quickly both impossible to get critical or special results and too easy to get fumbles. But shifting it to a modifier to skill made that go away.

I also liked the way the James Bond RPG handled it. You got so many minutes of activity, based on stats, and then you were exhausted and suppered a penalty (about 1/2) to rolls. In extreme cases (like in the outback on a hit day) exterion counted at a faster than normal rate.

I can see the benefit to that in simplicity, but I think its a little deterministic for my taste.

Not entirely. A wounded person should tire faster than a healthy one. So an

Yes, but I'm not sure the latter is really true; I'm not sure a tired person shocks out faster than a fresh one, or if so, to a significant degree.

injury penalty would seem appropriate. Likewise someone who is exhausted is more likely to pass out from an injury, and vice versa. The bit in all those

Do you actually have some evidence this is the case?

[Atgxtg]

Why was that a problem? In those cases where you had warning, I don't see a little magical prep as being a big issue. At the lower end you still only had so many spells, and at the upper end most opponents who were worth your trouble could usually find ways to buy time to get their own spells up.

It wasn't a tactical problem, just a bookkeeping one. It worked like this. Let's say the PCs were setting up to attack a foe. The foe has guards, but isn't aware of the PCs.

-First the PCs maneuver/sneak in close enough so that their spells won't wear off before they reach the foe.

-Then they spend 2 or 3 rounds getting their magic up. GM has to note exactly which spells are cast on which round/SR to know when stuff is going to wear off.

-Now a minute or so gets used up as PCs try to coordinate for a simultaneous attack.

-The fighting breaks out. The PCs usually cut through the guard pretty quick. About 2/3rd go down in one round, with a couple of guys holding on for a round or two due to failed rolls, bad luck, etc.

-The the real fight breaks out. The rest of the NPCs are usually alerted by the fighting and stat doing their spells and other preparations ad hoc. More bookkeeping. People start popping in at odd turns and SR, and there is some maneuvering for position, delays and such.

-All this requires keeping track of spell durations, and MP expenditures. Since virtually everyone had some battle magic in RQ, it usually meant more bookkeeping than ticking off fatigue points.

-Toss in allied spirits, POW crystals and Divine Magic spells and Fatiue points were usually the last thing I was worried about. I was more cornered about when the Bladesharp, Countermagic, and Protection spells were due to wear off.

I probably wasn't clear but that was the RQ:AIG approach. Essentially, if you got into a situation where fatigue-significant rolls were liable to be made, you checked to see what the characters had been doing before, and made a fatigue check (or more than one if they'd been doing things like marching cross country for two days at an accellerated pace) and applied the fatigue levels then; they then made another check every ten rounds in combat. As I recall there were four or five different levels with different levels of penalty. Only thing wrong with it (and this was easily fixed) was that instead of applying as penalties to the base, they were applied as modifiers to the roll which made it quickly both impossible to get critical or special results and too easy to get fumbles. But shifting it to a modifier to skill made that go away.

Sounds good, except for the application (as you pointed out).

I can see the benefit to that in simplicity, but I think its a little deterministic for my taste.

Well, it was for a game system in which ENC is not a big issue. Fatigue in that game was more in terms of how long can you keep running, or how many hours you can travel cross country without sleep? In that game the asnwer was important to determine if you could escape the people who were chasing you.

Fatasy RPGs tened to need more fatigue and ENC rules as some players will "tank" it up, and others like to carry the kitchen sink.

Yes, but I'm not sure the latter is really true; I'm not sure a tired person shocks out faster than a fresh one, or if so, to a significant degree.

From what I've seen working at a hospital, yeah they do. Its part of the adrenaline dump thing. When you get scared/excited/injured the adrenaline kicks in and you go into hypermode. Once it wears off, you crash. Someone who is already injured is already on the crash part of the cycle. Even worse, an injury acts as a constant distraction, so they susally don't rest back up to full stamina.

There was a variant rule for RQ3 where damage points were subtracted from FP too. While I think the implementation was a bit severe (probably need to double the FP points to make it work), the idea was fairly sound. Probably not a bad alternative to the "tick a round" method, too.

Do you actually have some evidence this is the case?

[RMS]

It wasn't a tactical problem, just a bookkeeping one. It worked like this. Let's say the PCs were setting up to attack a foe. The foe has guards, but isn't aware of the PCs.

-First the PCs maneuver/sneak in close enough so that their spells won't wear off before they reach the foe.

-Then they spend 2 or 3 rounds getting their magic up. GM has to note exactly which spells are cast on which round/SR to know when stuff is going to wear off.

-Now a minute or so gets used up as PCs try to coordinate for a simultaneous attack.

-The fighting breaks out. The PCs usually cut through the guard pretty quick. About 2/3rd go down in one round, with a couple of guys holding on for a round or two due to failed rolls, bad luck, etc.

-The the real fight breaks out. The rest of the NPCs are usually alerted by the fighting and stat doing their spells and other preparations ad hoc. More bookkeeping. People start popping in at odd turns and SR, and there is some maneuvering for position, delays and such.

-All this requires keeping track of spell durations, and MP expenditures. Since virtually everyone had some battle magic in RQ, it usually meant more bookkeeping than ticking off fatigue points.

-Toss in allied spirits, POW crystals and Divine Magic spells and Fatiue points were usually the last thing I was worried about. I was more cornered about when the Bladesharp, Countermagic, and Protection spells were due to wear off.

Wow! I've never bothered with tracking everything like that. PCs track their own MP. NPCs have whatever MP they need to power whatever they should logical have. Magic wears off when it makes sense to wear off. I'm certianly not clicking off melee rounds to 5/10/15 minute points. For one thing, it's magic, so I assume that it's not mechanistic at all. That 5 minutes is an approximation IMO, so magic goes down whenever it seems reasonable that it's gone down.

Now, that doesn't mean that my players haven't used the short duration of magic in RQ tactically. Over the years, different groups at various times have suckered their foes into throwing up magic, only to run away or stay at missile range until the foe's magic has gone down. Then the PC's turn, power up and fight. Orlanthi equipped with Mobility can really be nasty with this type of tactic.