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Sorcerers and POW increase


Brootse

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It would depend if they worship anyone. If they are godless sorcerers, then no. If they are Lhankor Mhy, as in the core book yes. The Godless sorcerer in my game learned befuddle as he realised he wouldn't get POW gain rolls otherwise. As an aside RQG sorcery isn't based on RQ3, see the design notes.

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2 hours ago, Brootse said:

Do sorcerers get POW increase chance from worship rituals? In RQ3 they didn't, has this changed?

As we read it, Aeolian, Lhankor Mhy and Lunars: Yes, because they worship real gods, and follow the standard rules. For Malkioni, I presume no, but we have to wait for the book on the West/Malkioni/Sorcery.

30 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It would depend if they worship anyone. If they are godless sorcerers, then no. If they are Lhankor Mhy, as in the core book yes. The Godless sorcerer in my game learned befuddle as he realised he wouldn't get POW gain rolls otherwise.

Ditto with disruption.

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49 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As we read it, Aeolian, Lhankor Mhy and Lunars: Yes, because they worship real gods, and follow the standard rules. For Malkioni, I presume no, but we have to wait for the book on the West/Malkioni/Sorcery.

Ditto with disruption.

Thanks! In this thread:

Jeff said that:

On 3/15/2019 at 8:26 AM, Jeff said:

It does mean that initiates of many popular cults can't Open the seas - Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. But LM, Issaries, and even CA are likely overrepresented within the Dormal community. 

 

Which means that sorcerers can't be Orlanth's Initiates. On the other hand the rulebook says that:

Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator. Of these, Orlanth is most important.

But this doesn't specify if the Aeolian Wizard caste sorcerers have special rules that allow them to advance to the Initiate status in Orlanth's cult. Maybe the sorcerers have a different kind of Worship Invisible God spell than the Western people, and their spell gets them the POW increase chance, even if they aren't Initiates in a cult that allows learning sorcery.

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8 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator. Of these, Orlanth is most important.

But this doesn't specify if the Aeolian Wizard caste sorcerers have special rules that allow them to advance to the Initiate status in Orlanth's cult. Maybe the sorcerers have a different kind of Worship Invisible God spell than the Western people, and their spell gets them the POW increase chance, even if they aren't Initiates in a cult that allows learning sorcery.

Where is it written that Aeolian Wizard can't be initiated? It is specifically written they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy and Eurmal (RQG p389). It is also written they use sorcery (of course) instead of Rune and Spirit magic, but not that they can't be initiated.

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

Where is it written that Aeolian Wizard can't be initiated? It is specifically written they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy and Eurmal (RQG p389). It is also written they use sorcery (of course) instead of Rune and Spirit magic, but not that they can't be initiated.

In that thread I linked Jeff said that Orlanth's Initiates aren't allowed to use sorcery.

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1 hour ago, Brootse said:

In that thread I linked Jeff said that Orlanth's Initiates aren't allowed to use sorcery.

That's not what Jeff is saying.  You took that one sentence out of context.  Prior to that, Jeff had just said:

Quote

when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

Orlanthi and Ernaldans, being Air and Earth initiates, are less likely to have the Water Rune.  LM will know the tecniques, Issaries can just trade and Chalana Arroy I'm not sure I follow his logic on that one, but no particular Elemental Rune is favored by her though Water is going to be more common than Darkness.

Edited by Pentallion
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1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

That's not what Jeff is saying.  You took that one sentence out of context.  Prior to that, Jeff had just said:

Orlanthi and Ernaldans, being Air and Earth initiates, are less likely to have the Water Rune.  LM will know the tecniques, Issaries can just trade and Chalana Arroy I'm not sure I follow his logic on that one, but no particular Elemental Rune is favored by her though Water is going to be more common than Darkness.

From the rulebook: A sorcerer’s understanding of a Rune is not based on their affinity with that Rune, nor is it a skill. Instead, an adventurer either understands a Rune well enough to manipulate it, or does not.

CH worshippers are allowed to learn any kind of magic that isn't harmful, and LM temples teach a certain set of sorcery spells. Issaries worshippers can't trade for understanding of sorcery runes.

Edited by Brootse
typo
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3 hours ago, Brootse said:

In that thread I linked Jeff said that Orlanth's Initiates aren't allowed to use sorcery.

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, I have read that thread, but that does not seem compatible with the rules.

I think there might be compatibility a gap that we can squeeze through here.

Aeolians can worship Orlanth.

Orlanth cultists can't learn sorcery.

Therefore Aeolians worship Orlanth, but not through the Orlanth rune cult.

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2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think there might be compatibility a gap that we can squeeze through here.

Aeolians can worship Orlanth.

Orlanth cultists can't learn sorcery.

Therefore Aeolians worship Orlanth, but not through the Orlanth rune cult.

Another possibility is that Jeff's comment was about 'normal' orlanthis, not aeolian ones.

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4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think there might be compatibility a gap that we can squeeze through here.

Aeolians can worship Orlanth.

Orlanth cultists can't learn sorcery.

Therefore Aeolians worship Orlanth, but not through the Orlanth rune cult.

Orlanth Initiates can't learn sorcery. So I think that in my campaign I'll let the Aeolian wizard be an Orlanth lay member, but get POW increase chances from his Aeolian rites as if he was a priest. At least until the official rules say otherwise.

 

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Another possibility is that Jeff's comment was about 'normal' orlanthis, not aeolian ones.

Might be.

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11 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Orlanth Initiates can't learn sorcery. So I think that in my campaign I'll let the Aeolian wizard be an Orlanth lay member, but get POW increase chances from his Aeolian rites as if he was a priest. At least until the official rules say otherwise.

Which brings up another interesting question.

In RQ3, when a cult specifies that Initiate and greater may not know sorcery, it speciifically says they must forget any sorcery known. This is one major reason why the God the Middle Air [and by extention Weather] doesn't have many sailors as worshippers, since sailors almost have to have Open Seas sorcery spell.

But does RQG require sorcery learned as a Lay member to be forgotten as an Inititate? I don't recall seeing anything specific to that, but I might have missed it.

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2 minutes ago, svensson said:

Another very handy spell for the aetheist soceror is Disruption. Sure it can be a cheap *ping* spell, but a POW gain roll is a POW gain roll no matter where it comes from.

Haha yeah, it's one of my players' favourite spells :). And even though Steal Breath doesn't require POW vs. POW roll (if i understood the rules correctly), I made it require it IMG, so the wizard will get his POW increases from its use.

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1 minute ago, Brootse said:

Haha yeah, it's one of my players' favourite spells :). And even though Steal Breath doesn't require POW vs. POW roll (if i understood the rules correctly), I made it require it IMG, so the wizard will get his POW increases from its use.

Hey, if your cult and associated cults can't get you Disrupt, you're in the wrong cult, bruh. :lol:

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Two things IMHO:

1. I think it's ridiculous for a sorcerer to learn Disruption ONLY to be able to get a POW increase. I mean, what rationale does that have in-character? IMG, sorcerers will get POW increases just for doing sorcerous things.

2. Orlanthi initiates can't learn sorcery. But that only applies to Orlanthi initiates from cultures such as the Sartarite, Esrolian, Tarshite or Praxian. The Aeolians are a different bunch of people, who believe casting sorcery and whorshipping rune-related gods is OK, so for them that prohibition does not apply.

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1 minute ago, svensson said:

Last thing on this, swear to Orlanth :)

This is one reason why we might all be better off waiting for a Malkioni or Sorcery book to come out. It might save us all the speculation and rules contortions.

Yeah it will solve the problems, but in the meantime campaigns with non-Dragon Pass characters will need some kind of rules for their stuff.

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9 minutes ago, Brootse said:

And even though Steal Breath doesn't require POW vs. POW roll (if i understood the rules correctly), I made it require it IMG, so the wizard will get his POW increases from its use.

We understood it requires the roll when used as an attack, but not when only tapping the ambient air.

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9 minutes ago, svensson said:

Last thing on this, swear to Orlanth :)

This is one reason why we might all be better off waiting for a Malkioni or Sorcery book to come out. It might save us all the speculation and rules contortions.

Except that the Aeolians are described in the rules, although briefly. I hope they will receive a more complete treatment.

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3 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yeah it will solve the problems, but in the meantime campaigns with non-Dragon Pass characters will need some kind of rules for their stuff.

I know. I wanted to put together a Lunar thief just to do something different. The idea was that he'd be the team skill-monkey, lock-picker, and all round Doer of Very Bad Things. Had a hell of a time with it. I didn't like the idea of just filing off the name of Eurmal, couldn't find an appropriate Lunar cult, and was trying to stay away from Sorcery until some further guidance was available.

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8 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

1. I think it's ridiculous for a sorcerer to learn Disruption ONLY to be able to get a POW increase. I mean, what rationale does that have in-character? IMG, sorcerers will get POW increases just for doing sorcerous things.

Completely agree.

8 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

2. Orlanthi initiates can't learn sorcery. But that only applies to Orlanthi initiates from cultures such as the Sartarite, Esrolian, Tarshite or Praxian. The Aeolians are a different bunch of people, who believe casting sorcery and whorshipping rune-related gods is OK, so for them that prohibition does not apply.

This is exactly what we have understood.

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