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8 minutes ago, svensson said:

But aren't Aeolians considered heretics by True Orlanthi? For some reason I believe that to be true but it beats me where I got it.

Yes. But Orlanth does not mind.   :-)

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Just now, Runeblogger said:

Yes. But Orlanth does not mind. 🙂

Presumably they're still getting spells and not being visited by Spirits of Reprisal [of which Orlanth as more than his fair share], so they must be doing something right :)

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17 minutes ago, svensson said:

Presumably they're still getting spells and not being visited by Spirits of Reprisal [of which Orlanth as more than his fair share], so they must be doing something right :)

Exactly, it's always the other culture who's doing it wrong. We worship and get our spells and blessings, so we're doing it right. Those people over there, bah, those barbarians don't know anything... ;)  Every culture's Orlanth cult is different and works just fine for them!

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48 minutes ago, svensson said:

But aren't Aeolians considered heretics by True Orlanthi? For some reason I believe that to be true but it beats me where I got it.

Maybe from this thread:

On 3/1/2016 at 8:17 AM, Jeff said:

The Esvularing are viewed by other Orlanthi as people who follow a strange school of thought and have strange traditions. They are not heretics (Theyalan polytheism doesn't really have the concept of heresy or orthodoxy since every temple tends to have a different subcult, a different associated god, etc - there's a awful lot of diversity there). Of course, they are clannish about their magic secrets - as are most other Orlanthi. 

 

Esvularings meaning the people who follow Aeolianism.

Edited by Brootse
typo

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49 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Maybe from this thread:

 

Esvularings meaning the people who follow Aeolianism.

Probably there or the GoG text supporting it.

 

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8 hours ago, Brootse said:

From the rulebook: A sorcerer’s understanding of a Rune is not based on their affinity with that Rune, nor is it a skill. Instead, an adventurer either understands a Rune well enough to manipulate it, or does not.

CH worshippers are allowed to learn any kind of magic that isn't harmful, and LM temples teach a certain set of sorcery spells. Issaries worshippers can't trade for understanding of sorcery runes.

I'm quite aware of that and Jeff was discussing how techniques aren't used to cast Dormals opening.  He goes on to say in sorcery it would be water and command.

Obviously, were it that simple, the Closing would have lasted 1 day.  His point being that the magic casters are calling on through Dormal requires the water RUNE.  Not the technique.  He flat out states this.

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6 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

I'm quite aware of that and Jeff was discussing how techniques aren't used to cast Dormals opening.  He goes on to say in sorcery it would be water and command.

Obviously, were it that simple, the Closing would have lasted 1 day.  His point being that the magic casters are calling on through Dormal requires the water RUNE.  Not the technique.  He flat out states this.

Well, to be fair, it can be fairly held that Dormal's Quest of Opening was the first HeroQuest of the Hero Wars. He was a mortal man who Quested to Open the Syndic's Ban and then ascended to Godhood within the bounds of Time, and only the second mortal to do so [Sedenya ascending to the Red Goddess being first]. As I understand it, Arkat may or may not count, as he is an ascended Hero but is only worshiped as a Hero in Humakt and Kyger Litor, not as a God in and of himself.

As to casting Open Seas, yes, Jeff has stated clearly that the caster must be attuned to the Water Rune [it must be greater than 50%] in order to cast the spell.

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3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I'm quite aware of that and Jeff was discussing how techniques aren't used to cast Dormals opening.  He goes on to say in sorcery it would be water and command.

Obviously, were it that simple, the Closing would have lasted 1 day.  His point being that the magic casters are calling on through Dormal requires the water RUNE.  Not the technique.  He flat out states this.

Pardon? Those are requirements, but that's like saying the requirements for Solve Rubik's Cube is just Rotate and Turn Face. Knowing a Rune and a Technique does not give you knowledge of all the spells that are possible with that combination. And Water is not a technique, it's a rune. Open Seas requires knowledge of the Command Technique, the Water Rune, and the Open Seas spell. This latter component is what Dormal invented.

And clearly there is a version of the spell that DOES use techniques, it's right there in the RQG rule book as a regular spell that DOES use Command and Water.

What Jeff is saying is that there's another way of learning the spell that doesn't require studying of the Rune and Technique.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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8 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I'm quite aware of that and Jeff was discussing how techniques aren't used to cast Dormals opening.  He goes on to say in sorcery it would be water and command.

Obviously, were it that simple, the Closing would have lasted 1 day.  His point being that the magic casters are calling on through Dormal requires the water RUNE.  Not the technique.  He flat out states this.

nah

 

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Pardon? Those are requirements, but that's like saying the requirements for Solve Rubik's Cube is just Rotate and Turn Face. Knowing a Rune and a Technique does not give you knowledge of all the spells that are possible with that combination. And Water is not a technique, it's a rune. Open Seas requires knowledge of the Command Technique, the Water Rune, and the Open Seas spell. This latter component is what Dormal invented.

And clearly there is a version of the spell that DOES use techniques, it's right there in the RQG rule book as a regular spell that DOES use Command and Water.

What Jeff is saying is that there's another way of learning the spell that doesn't require studying of the Rune and Technique.

Yeah it's this.

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4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

ummm, that's what I was saying.

I thought you were saying that you use your Water Rune affinity, rather than studying it.

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On 3/22/2019 at 7:47 AM, svensson said:

Well, to be fair, it can be fairly held that Dormal's Quest of Opening was the first HeroQuest of the Hero Wars.

While his journey to the Threestep Isles certainly proved the concept of the Opening to Kethaela and Handra, it didn't start the Hero Wars any more than Sartar's founding of the kingdom bearing his name or the 1602 conquest of Boldhome.

Tatius' escalation of the Siege of Whitewall resulting in the Windstop is fairly legitimate as starting date. There may be other events in other parts of the world roughly in the same period, but with less obvious ubiquitious effect.

 

On 3/22/2019 at 7:47 AM, svensson said:

He was a mortal man who Quested to Open the Syndic's Ban and then ascended to Godhood within the bounds of Time, and only the second mortal to do so [Sedenya ascending to the Red Goddess being first]. As I understand it, Arkat may or may not count, as he is an ascended Hero but is only worshiped as a Hero in Humakt and Kyger Litor, not as a God in and of himself.

There have been others. Arkat apotheosized around 500. Pavis (Second Age) and Sartar (1520) are known examples preceding Dormal. And there is a whole bunch of Lunar mortals who became deities, like the Seven Mothers, Etyries and others less well known in Dragon Pass.

Hon-eel is a borderline case. She does have a cult which provides divine magic, but her disappearance at the Battle of the Night of Horrors is similar to Alakoring being chained to Sheng's Hell. But then Dormal sailing across the borders of the Inner World is similar to that, too.

 

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On 3/24/2019 at 9:49 AM, Joerg said:

While his journey to the Threestep Isles certainly proved the concept of the Opening to Kethaela and Handra, it didn't start the Hero Wars any more than Sartar's founding of the kingdom bearing his name or the 1602 conquest of Boldhome.

Tatius' escalation of the Siege of Whitewall resulting in the Windstop is fairly legitimate as starting date. There may be other events in other parts of the world roughly in the same period, but with less obvious ubiquitious effect.

 

There have been others. Arkat apotheosized around 500. Pavis (Second Age) and Sartar (1520) are known examples preceding Dormal. And there is a whole bunch of Lunar mortals who became deities, like the Seven Mothers, Etyries and others less well known in Dragon Pass.

Hon-eel is a borderline case. She does have a cult which provides divine magic, but her disappearance at the Battle of the Night of Horrors is similar to Alakoring being chained to Sheng's Hell. But then Dormal sailing across the borders of the Inner World is similar to that, too.

 

But Arkat apotheosized as a hero of Humakt, not a separate deity in and of himself. The same with both the Seven Mothers and Sartar. The Mothers were raised up by the will and power of Sedendya /Red Goddess, but not by their own deeds. The same could be said about Sartar as a personal wyter of the nation he founded, raised up by the will of Orlanth Rex.

Dormal, on the other hand, Quested on his own dime, so to speak. He journeyed to the Three-Step Isles, then proceeded to break the Syndics Ban around world before plunging into Magasta's Pool and arriving in the Celestial Heavens as god without the sponsorship of a pantheon or deity.

This makes Dormal pretty unique.

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5 hours ago, svensson said:

But Arkat apotheosized as a hero of Humakt, not a separate deity in and of himself.

I disagree. Arkat apotheosized as a force of liberation. Yes, he was a hero of Humakt following his contact with the Orlanth-worshipping Enerali of Ralios and his joining of the cult of Orlanth. He had become a Man-of-All in Seshnela before in addition to his Brithini Horali origin, and afterwards a member of Kyger Litor and a hero of Zorak Zoran. Finally, he is said to have accepted Chaos in order to beat Nysalor in his final battle with Nysalor, and that final battle had its cost - he didn't emerge unscathed.

(Of course Nysalor did even less so, giving up his identity.)

The guy who returned to Ralios after cursing Dorastor was no longer a mere hero of Humakt. Nor was he all the Arkat that had accumulated before, but also a good portion of Nysalor (and probably some of the bad portions of Nysalor, too) contained in himself.

Arkat went on to become the guardian of the Otherworld, to intercede with power-hungry questers taking the powers of the gods for themselves. He inserted himself (or heroes/avatars of himself) into every heroquest there is - you will always encounter a guardian in some form at some stage. And that is what apotheosized.

(Of course, the God Learners worked mightily to undo his guardianship, and may have weakened it significantly, but however much they suppressed his cult, the guardians remain.)

I'm game to discuss this further, but preferably over on the Glorantha forum as things about Arkat get esoteric by the very nature of the topic.

5 hours ago, svensson said:

The same with both the Seven Mothers and Sartar. The Mothers were raised up by the will and power of Sedendya /Red Goddess, but not by their own deeds.

Yanafal was instrumental in the Red Goddess quest (much as Harmast Barefoot was instrumental to Arkat's life quest) and became a deity through his own deeds. Teelo Norri fits your description, but the rest of the mothers have plenty of deeds to offer.

5 hours ago, svensson said:

The same could be said about Sartar as a personal wyter of the nation he founded, raised up by the will of Orlanth Rex.

Was it the will of Orlanth Rex? Was it a trade in the name of Issaries? Or was it a self-change in the same way Larnste escaped the destruction of the Spike? Or all three of these? Or did he carry over his kingship of Dragon Pass in a draconic utuma?

Sartar never was a Rex tribal king - he had no tribe (other than the over-tribe he had formed), and his royal family was rather small, even if you include the personal retainers as his clansfolk. If you want to make a claim for Orlanthi kingship, you have to field Vingkotling kingship (without which you have no dynasty).

Again, all of this gets quite esoteric, and not directly game-relevant.

5 hours ago, svensson said:

Dormal, on the other hand, Quested on his own dime, so to speak. He journeyed to the Three-Step Isles, then proceeded to break the Syndics Ban around world before plunging into Magasta's Pool and arriving in the Celestial Heavens as god without the sponsorship of a pantheon or deity.

This makes Dormal pretty unique.

An argument can be made that Dormal was a hero of Diros the Boatman. Not that new as a concept.

Breaking the Syndics Ban wasn't what his quest was about, it was more like a weakness in the Ban as its creators may have regarded the seas as impassable and left that entry path open by oversight.

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On 3/21/2019 at 10:56 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Another possibility is he just cocked up. 😂

Another possibility is that it you are trying to construct too much from a few statements. All of which are correctly placed, but there are a lot of other points in between.

Also worship includes Lay Membership, which is much more important in RQG than in RQ3.

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1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Another possibility is that it you are trying to construct too much from a few statements. All of which are correctly placed, but there are a lot of other points in between.

Also worship includes Lay Membership, which is much more important in RQG than in RQ3.

So if you want to become a sorcerer and understand Runes and Techniques, you can still worship Orlanth as a lay member or as an initiate of an associated cult that permits sorcery (CA, Eurmal, Issaries, LM, and plenty of others), but you can't initiate into HIS mysteries. Aeolian sorcerers worship Orlanth but are not initiates of his cult. Wizards are initiates of <AEOL> (or whatever we end up calling it). They worship Orlanth (and other gods) as lay members, but do not participate in Orlanth's mysteries as initiates. Which seems perfectly appropriate to other Esvularings, and seems just plain weird to other Orlanthi.

But as polytheists, the other Orlanthi don't consider the Aeolians to be "heretics" - just weird people.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 Wizards are initiates of <AEOL> (or whatever we end up calling it).

I sincerely hope that we will find a better name. The Stygians aren't worshippers of Styg or Styx, either, nor are earth worshippers members of the cult of Chthon.

Aether at least comes with "Primolt" added, from which (presumably) the term "Promalti" is derived.

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

So if you want to become a sorcerer and understand Runes and Techniques, you can still worship Orlanth as a lay member or as an initiate of an associated cult that permits sorcery (CA, Eurmal, Issaries, LM, and plenty of others), but you can't initiate into HIS mysteries.

Can we have the list of cults that permits sorcery. This is needed to create sorcery users (except for Lhankor Mhy).

Thanks.

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

Can we have the list of cults that permits sorcery. This is needed to create sorcery users (except for Lhankor Mhy).

Thanks.

It is all in the Gods and Goddesses book.

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